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Discussion Star Wars and Feminism

Discussion in 'Star Wars: New Films - No Spoilers Allowed' started by QuiWanKenJin, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    What.

    As for the rest of your post, that women are generally physically weaker than men is true to an extent, but irrelevant for an action movie. That a physically strong woman in a film isn't "relatable to an average female audience" is a silly argument in a world where men have loved films starring Arnold and Stallone for decades.
    Apart from that, I'm not sure what other "feminine qualities" you think are missing.

    And...
    QFT.
     
  2. Hyrum_Solo

    Hyrum_Solo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Ever hear of the phrase "a son marries a woman like his mother and a daughter marries a man like her father"? I thought that was a pretty common, true adage.

    I didn't say it was completely unrelatable, I said it was less so. Relatability being defined as qualities or experiences being shared by the character and the audience. If you characterize your character in one area, you make sacrifices other areas.
    Men love films starring Arnold and Stallone not mainly because they have or wished they had the physical strength of these actors (I won't deny that this has some factor), but because they have single minded, driven, action. I personally don't care too much for those movies and haven't seen very many of them. I'm more the deep thinking and thematic type.

    And no, RO was not a war movie. Sure it tried to be, but it really wasn't. If anything, it was your standard action movie. A war can be going on in a movie without it being a "war movie". The Galactic Civil War is a backdrop for the story being told, not the main focus of it. We get no insight into the larger scope of the political situation. We get barely any insight into the organization and operation of the rebellion (except that one fringe group is responsible for all of the bad press the rebellion gets :rolleyes:). We get no insight into what it's like to be a common rebel soldier until the last scene. Individuals have more impact than entire armies (this one is a little bit of a grey area). My biggest problem with RO is probably that it didn't feel like I was watching galactic history unfold. We already have the saga movies to show us the impact of single heroes on galactic history. RO is just more of the same.

    And no, Jyn is not a soldier. She did not volunteer or become enlisted in an army to which she had an obligation to fight for. She was not trained to fight, and most certainly wasn't trained to act as part of a unit.
    Just because you can shoot blasters doesn't make you a soldier.
     
  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Both men and women in action and war movies perform stunts that the average man or woman would struggle with, and the audience generally suspends their disbelief in order to enjoy the war or action film. If men are capable of relating to men who perform above average physical feats in action and war movies, then women like myself are also capable of relating to women in action and war films who display above average physical abilities. Many female viewers like myself will watch Jyn and admire her purpose and drive just like you describe men watching male action and war heroes with admiration. I guess I don't see why above average physical skills are acceptable for male war and action heroes but not for female action and war heroines.
     
  4. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    I have, but I'm living in the 21st century, so I don't pay much attention to ridiculously dated ideas about "what men do" and "what women do", because I feel we've moved beyond simple gender stereotypes.

    OK, so if men wish they had the strength and drive of those characters... why can't the female audience get such characters as well, without people having to second guess and tear them apart as "unrealistic"? But @devilinthedetails said all this better than I as a guy ever could have.

    I disagree.

    Yes she was. She grew up as a member of Saw Gerrera's band of rebels, so she's very much a soldier.

    I have a feeling @anakinfansince1983 could have a thing or two to say in this discussion. :)
     
  5. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    This seems like Jyn was trained to fight to me.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Thanks for inviting me in! Calling bull**** on dumb ideas about what I am “supposed to” like and how I as a woman am “supposed to” act is always fun. :D

    Not as many as you think. Good writing will reflect inherent differences in *personalities.” And the fewer female characters that are written as sobbing wusses who fall over men, or bat their eyelashes and make dumb comments, or just generally act stupid and codependent, the better off cinema is. And if you want to watch that garbage, rent a movie based on a Nicholas Sparks novel. Leave it out of Star Wars.

    There are plenty of women who are competitive athletically and can kick a man’s ass. Just because on average a woman might run slower and not be able to lift as much does not mean that no woman can ever beat a man, or be a soldier.

    And generalizing people by sex is idiotic. It relegates those who do not “fit” to outcast status.

    So women aren’t part of “the female audience” to you unless they are Nicholas Sparks fans? LOL, too bad. Women have been fans of Star Wars since 1977. We’re not going anywhere, we understood that the point of the Leia bikini scene was not eye candy for horny men but kicking misogyny’s ass through choking Jabba, and we don’t want any Catherine Earnshaws with their “feminine qualities.”

    Jyn is one of the greatest characters in Star Wars and not one aspect of her needed to be changed. And speak for yourself about men and their fathers—the only men I know who do not have solid relationships with their fathers are men whose fathers are not in their lives at all—among fathers who are present, their relationships with their sons and daughters are equal, taking only gender into account.

    But I, like @TCF-1138 , live in the 21st century, not the 19th where women are condescendingly referred to as “the fairer sex”.

    Jyn has breasts and a vagina. She has “feminine qualities.”
     
  7. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    I mean, there's not a lot of precedent for seeing women as the worse sex when it comes to combat considering that there were women in civilizations dating all the way back to those such as Scythia who were renowned warriors. It's just kind of a joke at this rate. Especially in the age of firearms which Star Wars has in the form of blasters.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  8. Hyrum_Solo

    Hyrum_Solo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2015

    I agree, super human feats make for good action.
    I'm glad that you agree with me also that you can relate with the different aspects of a character if present (though Jyn having purpose and drive is debatable given that she is largely a passive protagonist).
    I never said it was unacceptable, only that it comes with certain benefits and disadvantages. Try reading what I wrote and not what you think I'm saying :).


    Simple gender stereotypes. *giggle snort*
    I'm sorry, not sorry for laughing.
    Anyway refer back to the above statement about characterization benefits and sacrifices.

    Prove to me that RO is a warfilm. Give me some examples. Validate your view point.
    A militant and a soldier are two different things. And besides, her "experience" consisted of "fighting as a soldier" from age 8 to 16 (I had to look this up. I'm going to say for the first time, this is pretty unrealistic to me).

    Don't get me started on how useless stormtroopers were in that movie.


     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Women do not need people with “traditional values” to “elevate them on a pedestal.” You’re not actually “elevating” us, you are being condescending and demeaning, by assuming that we need your “help” to be “elevated” because we are too “pure” to stand on a pedestal all by our damn selves.

    And I do not give a **** if you think I’m a hypocrite, judgmental, or an outright *****.

    And if you “generalize” for the sake of “conciseness” and “brevity,” you are still doing exactly as I said—marginalizing real people into chopped liver because you do not think they are “real women” (or “real men” ) because they do not fit your dumb stereotypes. You cannot completely write off actual human beings as if they don’t exist because you find our existence “tedious and tiresome”. All these “exceptions” you think exist (which are actually very prevalent and not at all “exceptions”) are here whether we are convenient to you or not.

    Case in point: “strong woman” is not an “exception,” and it is no more possible to “shove a strong woman down your throat” than to “shove a strong man down your throat.” It is even less possible to “shove a strong woman down your throat” than to “shove down your throat the weak crying woman who begs a man to save her” or the “shove down your throat a pure woman who saves a bad man from himself”. I feel like those were shoved down my throat before I found Star Wars and Marvel. (I would say Indiana Jones, but Willie Scott was definitely shoved down my throat.)

    And no, strong women are not “less likable by either sex.” Again you are trying to mansplain to me and other women in this thread what everyone in our gender likes. You’re not even in a position to say what every man likes, or what every non-binary person likes. Because no gender is a hive mind, and you cannot reduce them to such just because you don’t feel like acknowledging that people are individuals.

    Looks to me like you were trying to tell @devilinthedetails what women want as well as trying to tell me. We do pretty well deciding as women what “we” want without your help, and since we are women, we are not interested in being told that we are “abnormal” or “the exception” for our gender, because not only is it sexist to assume that women can only relate to weak and ditzy female characters, it is not OK to tell us that we “aren’t normal.”
     
  10. Darth Buzz

    Darth Buzz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2018
    Thought I was on a Star Wars forum [face_dunno]
     
  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You are. This discussion started because the thread got bumped because someone decided there are too many women with thoughts in the Disney Star Wars story group, and Jyn Erso isn’t girly enough.
     
  12. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Sormtroopers are useless in most Star Wars films. The point of that scene was to demonstrate that Jyn is an experienced and trained combatant. It's done in the same way that Baze and Chirrut are introduced. A quick demonstration for the audience of the characters capabilities. That, as well as what the film reveals about Jyn's past with Saw, tells us she is at least a guerilla soldier. And considering she's on an actual mission for the rebellion, with a military objective, and the actual A plot of the film is also about a group of combatants achieving a military objective against an enemy force, supports both the assertion that Jyn is a soldier and that Rogue One is a war film.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  13. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 ST/Anthology/Fan Films Manager and Ewok Enthusiast star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Yes, simple - and incredibly dated - gender stereotypes. That's what you were promoting.
     
  14. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @Hyrum_Solo Glad you agree superhuman feats make for good action. Then perhaps you will understand why if women are the protagonists of action/war films such as Rey and Jyn are the protagonists of the new Star Wars films, they are depicted as being capable of superhuman feats just like earlier Star Wars heroes like Luke and Anakin. You might also be able to understand how those superhuman feats do not make protagonists like Rey and Jyn inherently less relatable to a female audience than superhuman feats make characters like Luke or Anakin inherently less relatable to a male audience. Or maybe I'm giving you too much credit and you'll continue to assert with no evidence beyond generalizations to back it up that women who perform superhuman feats in action/war movies are less relatable to women than men who perform superhuman feats are to men despite the women (@anakinfansince1983 and myself) who have told you that is not the case for us.

    Of course I can relate to multiple aspects of a character whether male or female. I've already stated in this thread that I believe the focus in writing a character, male or female, should be on developing a complex character with believable motivations and a compelling backstory. I've also stated that I felt Jyn had that. To me, she had a compelling character journey going from a cynic to a martyr in an effort to fulfill her father's wishes. That was too me touching as was her death at the end of the movie. However, if you feel that she lacked a purpose or drive, I wouldn't agree with your assessment, but I'd find your interpretation much less fundamentally flawed than saying things like Jyn being able to fight does a "disservice to her femininity." Saying Jyn to you lacked purpose or drive can be a valid criticism in my book even if I don't agree with that interpretation, but making comments that suggest you have an issue with female protagonists fighting in an action/war film is going to earn quite a bit of pushback from me.

    So far, your posts in this thread have focused on all the disadvantages that you believe exist in having female protagonists who can fight in action/war films. Most of these disadvantages you've brought up unfortunately rely on generalizations, stereotypes, and assumptions about how women think that you've continued to maintain in the face of actual women (@anakinfansince1983 and myself) telling you that the thought process you are ascribing to women is not a universal or even common one. You've also not really mentioned any of the benefits you believe exist to having female protagonists in action/war movies. So, yes, it comes across as you thinking that female protagonists who can fight in action/war films like the new Star Wars movies are either unacceptable or at least less acceptable than male protagonists who can fight in action/war films like the Original and Prequel Star Wars movies. If that's not what you're trying to express, maybe reconsider how you are phrasing your posts and points since I don't seem to be the only one in this thread who has come away with that impression.
     
  15. Hyrum_Solo

    Hyrum_Solo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2015
    I guess the next time I encounter a woman entering the same door to a building as me, I'll slam it in her face and yell "You're a strong independent woman, open it yourself!" If the sentence sounds absurd, that's because it is. I adhere to traditional values because I think they make myself and others around me better people. I'll spawn this thought here, that when I say man and woman, I am referring to ideal archetypes that males and females should strive to become. More of this later.

    You're inability to take constructive criticism and defend yourself or learn from it is your loss. To me, it shows that you aren't worth discussing in any great detail with.
    Since you didn't bother to quote my post, I'll take it as evidence that you aren't really providing constructive criticism to specifically what I said and are just ranting.
    Here's a good video explaining strength in characters.


    Thank you for being civil and not just ranting like others here. I will commit the utmost thought and care to this response.
    Many hours later...
    Sorry but it's been a long day, I've had this open since this morning, I can't give you the response per point.
    Essentially, there is a difference between between being a male and a man, a female and a woman. Being a man or a woman means actualizing the potential of the archetype of masculinity and femininity which have different levels of potential for qualities that that only a man or a woman can attain. Manhood is essentially living up to the unique responsibilities that being a man demands, same for womanhood.
    Again, I'm simplifying the matter here because I'm tired and have actually important writing to do. And before you say, "what about my chopped liver person!?!" I would say they fall under the categories of males, females, or others (they cannot not possible be men or woman, sorry if this offends you, it's not targeted at you. I am not implying you are not woman. IT"S JUST MY OPINION.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    So you are here to lecture strangers on the Internet on how to become better people according to their gender? [face_laugh]

    Good luck with that.

    And since your version of “discussing” is attempting to mansplain to people you have never met and calling your mansplaining “constructive criticism”, I hope you do not find me worth “discussing in any great detail.”

    What you are really upset about is that I refuse to treat bigotry under the guise of “traditional values” or condescending mansplaining lectures on how I should be more “ladylike” with the respect that you think you are owed.

    To which I say—good. The sooner those “values” are given no respect, the better off the planet will be.

    And not watching that video or the other one you posted, because I don’t want that garbage in my YouTube history.

    So yes, please slam that door in my face. I am perfectly capable of opening it myself unless I am carrying a bulky package, and I will hold the door for a man who is carrying a bulky package. Assuming I am too weak to open a door is demeaning.

    BTW, I am a woman, but if what you have described here is the way you view and treat women, as wusses who need your “help” and “protection,” I am in no way offended if you don’t think I am a woman.

    @devilinthedetails and anyone else just tuning in, you’re having a conversation with someone who once compared LGBTQ people to criminals, and persisted in doing so after being warned. Just in case you were wondering what kind of “values” this person holds.

    And FWIW, this isn’t my area of the boards but...

    Rule #1 under Posting Rules and Regulations

    And

    Sexism policy
     
  17. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    Also, something to add, not adhering to traditional gender roles doesn't mean you now get to act like an *** to people because they're 'empowered'. Just treat everyone with respect like a normal person.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
  18. Hyrum_Solo

    Hyrum_Solo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2015
    I have not said anything sexist. I don't think there's anything I can do to convince anyone here of this.
    And I did not compare LTBGQs to criminals, I said homosexuality is disordered.
    I did not persist in doing so either. I pretty much quit this place after that as I saw no point.
    Thanks for lying about me.
     
  19. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    I was going to duck out of this thread but then I was drawn back to it, so I'll try to respond as courteously and articulately as I can.

    @Hyrum_Solo The thing for me is that I think very few males will meet all the qualities associated with the archetypal man and in my opinion, they shouldn't have to do so. They should be allowed to be themselves. Each male should be able to have his own qualities. Maybe the archetypal man doesn't like to cook, but my dad loves it, and it's one of his passions. Does that make him less of a man to me? Absolutely not. Do I respect the fact that cooking is a passion and interest of his? I totally do, and I treasure the times we've shared together in the kitchen. He's taught me plenty of cooking tricks since he's a better chef than me.

    I think the same principle for me applies to females. Few females are going to meet all the qualities of the archetypal female, and, again, to me they shouldn't have to. Females to me should be allowed to be themselves. Each female should be allowed to have her own qualities. So to me a female character who fights like Rey and Jyn is not less of a woman to me because she fights.

    I also don't tend to think in terms of a man's responsibilities or a woman's responsibilities. Instead I tend to think in terms of human responsibilities. What obligations we have as human beings to others and to ourselves, basically. To me, those questions about human responsibility were at the core of Jyn's character journey and that's a big part of why Rogue One was my favorite Star Wars film of the Disney era. Jyn's journey to me was all about what human responsibility she had to fight tyranny and what human responsibility she had to honor her father's wishes. At the start of her journey, Jyn to me was a cynical character, and in the end, she realized she had such a degree of responsibility to the galaxy and to her father, that she was willing to die a martyr. To me, that was a truly moving character journey that focused on what obligations humans have to one another. In a way, what I liked about Jyn is that her story to me felt like it had a universal quality that could be meaningful to any person.
     
  20. Hyrum_Solo

    Hyrum_Solo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2015
    @devilinthedetails
    Thanks for the kind response.
    Allow me to clarify, when I infer the qualities in an archetype the values I am referring to what I would call virtues. Obviously, cooking is not a virtue, and whether a man likes to cook or not is just a gift they have or a facet of their personality.

    You are right, that few males or females with be able to completely achieve being a real man or woman in their life. That's just a fact of human nature, we're inclined to vices. Especially when the vices become habitual. That doesn't however mean that we should "give up" and continue to be or old viceful selves. We should strive to attain virtue to make ourselves better and those around us.

    To work, that is to be productive with his skills and gifts, is what I would call one of the virtues that a male must attain on the way to becoming a man.
    Rhetorical question time, which one is more the man? The guy who lives in his mom's basement playing video games or the guy who as a job and can support himself?
    Now here's the controversial part, the benefit in virtue that a man gets from working at a job is relatively much greater than virtue that a woman gets from working at a job. That is not to say that a woman can't work as hard as a man, or be as productive, or should not work as hard, but that she will not get the same benefit from doing so that a man would. It's not as important to a woman to work at a job as it is necessary for a man to work at a job.
    Men are naturally born with gifts that allow them to more easily be productive at work. For example: high potential for physical strength, single mindedness, and drive. Getting nitpicky here, if a man is born disabled and cannot not physically work, that does not mean that he must not work (if he can, use his mind, for example Steven Hawking). Obliviously, if a guy is disabled in body and mind then they have no obligation to work (they can also not become a man, I will use the example of my friend's son, who is the same age as me but has a mental disability so he only has the capacity of being a child. I'd think it pretty obvious that a child is not a man regardless of physical age).
    Again, that saying that all women are inferior to all men at working. Only that their potentials and benefits from the virtue are naturally different.

    Bringing this back to star wars,
    sigh...
    Every day I subscribe more and more to the idea of death of the author. If that's what you were able to take away from the movie, that's great. Jyn being a woman in the movie is not offensive to me or whatever, but it is slightly suspect.
     
  21. starfish

    starfish Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2003
    You don’t speak for all men or all women, you speak only for yourself. And this **** above is nonsense.

    And this is hate speech.
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 I Am Speaking in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    @starfish , please. All he said is that women are lazy. [face_laugh] We just don’t like working or something. And apparently in some fantasy universe, our bank accounts tell us we don’t “need” to work because our bills discover that we have two X chromosomes and then decide to disappear.

    As far as Jyn, nothing at all “suspicious” about the fact that she is a woman. We have no more need to be “suspicious” of her gender than we would if she were played by Diego Luna.
     
  23. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    As my colleague @anakinfansince1983 pointed out, we have a sexism policy here on these boards. If you wish to continue to post here I suggest you read it carefully. You might also want to check out our policy on hate speech because if you post that garbage about "disordered" again you're going to find yourself on a very long vacation.
     
  24. Hyrum_Solo

    Hyrum_Solo Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2015
    1. No hate speech. Hate speech is defined as any post that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as gender identity, ethnic origin, religious affiliation or lack thereof, race, disability, genetic attribute, or sexual orientation.
    Since I could not find a definition for sexism on the forum I will provide one from merriam-webster
    Definition of sexism
    1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex especially : discrimination against women
    2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

    If we can agree on this definition, saying that men's eyesight is better at seeing moving objects and women's eyesight is better at seeing fine details is sexist towards men and woman. How about another one, woman can get pregnant and men can't. Boom, sexist. Saying that men are naturally inclined to being providers, sexist as well.
    Since I can't convince anyone here that sexism is a bogus, too all encompassing term, I must plead guilty.

    Saying that that homosexuality is disordered is "an attack" on homosexual acts, not on persons who are homosexual (a person have can have same sex attraction without ever engaging in same sex acts).
    Definition of homosexuality
    1 : sexual attraction or the tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex : the quality or state of being homosexual
    2 : sexual activity with another of the same sex

    On the merit that my comment from 4 years ago that I only restated for the sake of dispelling a lie, is in regards to an action and not a group of people, I did not violate your "hate speech" policy.

    edit: thanks to the wonderful feature of your forum to disable edits after an all too short time limit, I was unable to correct a fatal but now mute error in one of the sentences of my previous post.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  25. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I'm not here to argue with you as it seems to be exactly what you want and I will not allow you to derail the conversation more than you already have. I'm giving you one last chance to drop it and move on or I'm going to ban you. End of story.