Lit Star Wars Archives Episode 1-3 The Prequels

I wonder if it says anything about Plagueis or about Palpatine’s family.

 

These teases are so good!

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I've recently been doing a deep dive into Lucas's sequels, and all this information about symbiosis, essentially the Gaia hypothesis, fits so well with what he had set up in TPM. He intended that to be his first episode, so it makes sense that it would be the one to focus on some of the grander ideas. In that movie we see repeated and modulated in different ways that same theme, symbiosis versus parasitism. And the greatest parasites of all, the Sith Lords, are at the heart of all the trouble in the film. Their quest for power is only beginning, and later movies will show us how they continue to maneuver the players caught in their chess game until everyone becomes a slave of the Sith. Except for those who learn to listen to even the smallest of organisms, and recognize the power latent in symbiosis.

I love how Lucas, like Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung, saw the spiritual world as essentially being one and the same with the natural world. It highlights the importance of ecosystems, and, like he mentioned in a recent interview with James Cameron, the need for teaching ecology as a sort of essential ethical value for people today.

 

Not that I can recall,

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other than that Palpatine had lots of apprentices before and Maul like Sifo Dyas and them not lasting long.

Plagueis and Palpatines family did not play much of a role in the PT and therefore are rather absent but concepts he later developed further for the Plagueis novel and Underworld show that is not the focus of this book. Besides, Archives truly makes a lot of effort to not retread or repeat art and info already given in the Making of books and other previous works. So if all on that topic had been told in those, it explains why some parts are underrepresented maybe.

The Opera scene Plagueis namedrop stems from is adressed but not the backstory bit itself.

And in other news...

To give you some more specific tastes, I will in this post give verbatim quotes from the book, but not their context...

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The following is a quote by George Lucas:
"There's something like 100.000 times more Whills than there are midi-chlorians and there's about 10.000 times more midi-chlorians than there are human cells."

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Natalie Portman quote about the AOTC scene where Padmé and Anakin are at Varykino and play with the Force and the CGI Apple:
"We felt pretty stupid biting into fruit that didn't exist but it was a fun scene to shoot. George told us to improvise the dialogue - and of course it got inappropriate very quickly."

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George Lucas about the galaxy's past in the "Rule of Two" section:
"There was never a war between the Jedi and the Sith Lords."

Dooon't worry, I'd not take that literal myself despite him saying it like that. It more refers to what a Jedi truly is and what makes them different from Sith. More on that at a future time.

 

couldn't have said it any better myself!

You'll love the book!

One more for you:

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Lucas had planned to do more Force and myth stuff in Episode 2 and 3 but cut down on that early on before production on them started due to TPM backlash against midichlorians despite the films big success. Luckily, he recycled a lot into TCW, and not just the Force episodes.

Likewise, ROTS Clone Wars montage section was to be much larger and longer with battles on seven worlds beginning the movie. But it was cut down significantly before it was filmed and moved to mid-movie Order 66 montage when the story was shifted to begin on Coruscants space battle rather than end on one. Some cut ideas too made it into the TCW show naturally then.

 

Which again

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I feel like history is gonna repeat itself in whatever the next big animated series involving Jedi will be (Again we sorta saw it with Rebels) because the ST we get cut down the Force/Mythic stuff in favor of character stuff but will get recycled

 

@ColeFardreamer, thank you for all this info. I'm definitely very interested. I may end up getting this book after all, despite the hefty price.

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I want to complement this discussion with a couple of links.

It's interesting to hear more about Lucas's comments on the Rule of Two. He said something something similar on the 20th anniversary of TPM. The idea that I got from that interview was that essentially the Sith had destroyed themselves. Any war that there may have been was waged primarily among them, which is why the sole survivor eventually realized this was inevitable if a Sith master trained more than one apprentice at a time. Which, again, goes back to the theme of symbiosis.

Then we have Lucas's interview with James Cameron, captured in full in this book, where we first heard his thoughts on the Whills. There Lucas first revealed his intention for the Whills to be microorganisms, inspired by the bacterial world. As mentioned in the Archives, bacteria far outnumber all other lifeforms, they are far more ancient, and based on some theories (panspermia), it's possible they could have spread throughout the universe unaided. The Whills seemed to have been these creatures for SW, responsible for creating larger organisms, through the energy provided by the midi-chlorians. They were, in a way, similar to the cosmic Force, fed by the living Force and feeding it in turn in a symbiotic circle.

I wonder if the sequels would have had the Jedi rediscover this bigger world behind the Force as a way of having them form a stronger connection to the Force by trying to communicate directly with the Whills? Who knows, but it would've at least given the audience a better glimpse into his ideas on ecology. Lucas really wasn't kidding about bringing together real-world ideas about mythology, psychology, and ecology and synthesizing them in his art. He truly is an artist.

 

Apparently, the sith ruling the galaxy 2000 years before TPM was kept. But also expanded.

And the VD:

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Those 'meanings' seem to be
a)'new' Rule of Two: A law. Master and apprentice. Apprentice kills master and is killed by apprentice.
b)the dyad, an older and 'worthier' doctrine. The Rule of Two: the act of ruling. A dyarchy, a co-rule. 'We'll take the throne', says Kylo. (It's also from Lucas in a way. The Rue Of Two+family. 'Together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son')

But a)means, in fact, the Rule Of One. That's Palpatine. One throne. A monarchy.

Palpatine says to Rey: 'it's your birth right to rule here. It is in our blood'. Again, the sith ruled the galaxy 2000 years before TPM, according to Lucas. So:

'Kylo Ruin'. Was this 'Ruin' the 'ruler', and the throne in Exegol his/hers? But, apparently, the dyad doctrine had already been lost by then.

The VD also calls the dyad 'prophesized'. Only two wayfinders to Exegol were made. Sith artifacts. So, maybe, Palpatine's death in TROS was also the revenge of the old(er) sith against the man in the high castle of Exegol. (Maul and Obi-Wan call Luke 'chosen one' in Rebels)

 

And people would still have hated it

I suppose the idea is that even if the Sith were around for a long time the period of actual rule was 2000 years before TPM

I wouldn't be surprised if we ever got a movie or movies about the pre Phantom Menace Era it would take place during that era.

 

Yeah that would be the idea.

'Once more the sith will rule' (ROTS) 'No one will stop the return of the sith' (TROS)
Also, maybe, Windu's 'the opression of the sith will never return' in ROTS.

Darth Sidious was the 'new' Rule of Two name. The post-Bane sith. 'Palpatine' would have been older, and related to this Ruin/Ren - a family name, after all.

 

Great post and summary on Rule of Two lore!

So, are you ready for George Lucas Rule of Two?

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Before the Republic, Sith ruled the galaxy and were many. It was like a feudal system and a lot of infighting about who is coming out on top. Ultimately they destroyed each other until only two were left standing and the stronger of the two declared himself the Master and the weaker became the Apprentice. (I get Highlander vibes!)
The Apprentice would seek to defeat the Master by learning all from him and by seeking another to aid him in toppling the Master. Likewise the Master would seek other apprentices aside his current one to thwart any teamup on the apprentices part with another. (Both breaking the Rule of Two naturally and by doing that reinforcing it as if both do it, it still is balanced out)
If the Apprentice wins, alone or with an ally, they become the new two Sith. If the Master wins, alone or with another apprentice as ally, they are the new two Sith. And thus the lineage continues. That is the Rule of Two, with built in safety against breaking it as Sith naturally would.

The Rule of Two is, if there are more than two Sith they will naturally kill each other until only two are left. Those two will seek knowledge, skills and allies and be wary of each other until the point they are ready to fight each other and continue the cycle with whoever comes out on top.

Any number of Sith would naturally be reduced to only two. And the Jedi didn't even have to fight them, as warrior monks, they are ambassadors and peacekeepers that can resort to violence to end conflicts but prefer not to if at all. The Republic grew protected by the Jedi in the wake of the Sith selfdestruction as the Rule of Two Sith were too few to control the entire galaxy yet back then and the growing Republic and Jedi joined the galaxy in peaceful negotiations settling all conflicts and leftovers of the former Sith dominion. Hence Lucas quote of no ancient Jedi/Sith War that seemed odd at first.

Add on: Well, but with the backstory of Ruin and such as a fallen Jedi, I think there were ancient wars and the Sith were born out of the Jedi as we know, but much further back than the Rule of Two backstory Lucas told here. Given Ruin and Bane are less adressed in this book than the Rule of Two itself.

 

Okay...

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I can see some of this still being implemented into New Canon and Legends...The Sith being a Feudal Empire with Lords and what not...The Brotherhood of Darkness is very much like this Feudal Empire in many ways...The rules seem a little different but I think the philosophy is the same.

@Sauron_18

Also it seems the story of the sequels becomes clear


They kept most of Lucas's broad strokes

TFA however got scaled down and a lot of the mythic Force stuff got reduce to be something more palatable and character driven.

TLJ more or less took all the Luke stuff in Lucas's treatments and put it in the story.

TROS I think wanted desperately to keep as much of the Leia thread as possible but Carrie's passing made it hard hence the production issues while the force stuff was perhaps made more palatable (Even if still a tad confusing) with Palpatine and Exegol.

 

A question for those interested in the Force, Midichlorians and Whills:

How esoteric are you willing to get? Where would you draw the line? Are you science guys that enjoy the mystic Force but prefer hard science? Are you preferring it vague? What about Rebirth? What about other dimensions? What about circular and fractal concepts?

As noted before with the emphasis on Symbiosis, we are entering territory that could be at home with Christpher Nolan's Interstellar or Inception, the Wachowski's Matrix trilogy and other mindblowing and mindbending works and concepts.

The underlying concepts can be described like mythological tales of grandeur or like hard science comparisons studying nature, they could be put into words remniscient of religions or use terms of science and the underlying concept would be the same but depending on what you describe it with people will interpret or associate it differently and place too much emphasis on the differences than what both share as unifying aspects.

Lucas is really good in the book to word it well and hit all marks and compare it. Which is why I dread paraphrasing something that could be interpreted different because of my re-wording it.

To use one example, some people are religious and describe the world in heaven and hell, angels, god and demons. Others believe in science and even esoteric science believing what others put into religious terms to be ancient aliens and spacefaring people instead of supernatural beings. Likewise some believe in heaven as the end, or rebirth depending on religion, yet others see it like an ascension to a new dimension/plane scientifically if not believing in finality and vanishing into nothingness.

Language is useful but often lacking to describe the true nature of... nature... or the Force.

More on it some other time!

 

@ColeFardreamer

I think more the real question is how well would all these ideas be executed compared to what they are...I think the ideas are marvelous....But much like the Prequels the execution could have gone wrong depending on what went down.

Their is a reason people say Lucas is a good idea guy but a execution guy.

A lot of people I know for a fact like Star Wars when it a a bit more grounded and things like the force remain a mystery and vague

It's why Mortis is controversial among the non TCW community.

Maybe not go to the extremes Abrams went in TFA per say but I do know that making Star Wars esoteric especially if not executed perfectly wouldhave ruffled feathers and could have gone really really wrong.

 

Was Joe Bongiorno correct in his surmising that

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the Force Priestesses are Whills

in Supernatural Encounters? When I asked him about it he said there was actually quite a bit of evidence for it but doesn't want to go into specifics until the annotations are out.

 

@Jid123Sheeve

I think the PT is very loved and not flawed at all. Sure some fans expected more of the same, as in an OT clone, and got dissappointed partially. But that is wrong expectations, not flawed execution of Lucas great ideas.

In part those fans that disliked the PT are those that prefer the SW elements Kershner and Co brought to the OT over the ones Lucas instilled in the OT. Naturally when the creator does the PT more himself despite it being a group effort always with entire teams at work, the feel is more his own and closer to ANH than TESB thus. So fans that prefer TESB might dislike the PT.

Mortis is loved by many, sure also not loved by quite some, but what of SW isn't liked/disliked likewise by Fans?


Though Mortis on its own in TCW was spending more time with these ideas than it would have done integrated into the fast paced Movie PT where it needed to orient itself thematically, by pace and else on all plotlines and story threads. Fans might have liked it way more integrated into the PT due to not being overextended (as they might see it, not me) as TCW episodes only about it free of other plotlines had handled it.

Duel of the Fates Mortis bits were rather short on the deeper aspects and like TROS only barely touched them despite giving us Mortis. TROS not even used Mortis but kept the same level of adressing these concepts of the Dyad etc. as in where it befit its story and themes and pacing.



The Art of integrating this metaphysical element into the more grounded political story of the PT and likewise more political Lucas original ST from what we glimpsed about it is something that would have to go beyond Yoda on Dagobah levels talking luminous beings. Look at how brilliantly TLJ brought teleportation and other long distance bridging communication, etc. Dyad powers into play gradually increasing their level of possibilities and story relevance up till full on Force Remote Projection by Luke. And then in TROS picking that up to go full on lightsaber teleportation.

The Dyad as the penultimate Symbiosis, the perfect harmony, synch and balance between two lifeforms like yin and yang making practically anything possible unlocking godly powers and the universe as all limitations fall away. It's as if, when in balance, harmony, synch with other life, the universe grants you the godly freedom you seek. But if you go against nature, against other life, the universe will limit you, will take away potential, powers, and reduce your freedom so you can not harm other life and find your way back into synch.

The Dyad in the ST we got is a nice way on how to do Lucas ideas in a more practical environment. Instead of loosing characters in talking the metaphysical, they "show, don't tell" and have them gradually step into this larger than life world and live the symbiosis, its advantages as well as its disadvantages when going against it.
Of course you could do it more literal, have some wise new character spill the beans and explain it to the audience and characters, have them experience fantasy elements that even for science fictional SW seem fantastic from an inuniverse point of view, like the Mortis arc handled it. Or like the ST did you stay grounded and only gradually have people realize the nature of things and how everything connects to everything else and that to make it work one has to work with the symbiosis, not against it, as even the people fleet learned when it came together. A true awakening of the Force, as in all the living beings making up the Force with their life energy.


The PT due to pacing and limited time given they have barely time to cover the Clone Wars due to TPM being a prelude and AOTC starting it and ROTS ending it already, might not have had much space to accomodate the metaphysical other than adding few key scenes here and there and no full on Mortis storyline or Yoda Force arc. But in a larger 4+ hours AOTC I could see a shortened Yoda's Force arc partially intercut with AOTC as to Qui Gon guiding him to Dagobah etc. before Yoda reemerges and has to take the Clones from Kamino to Geonosis. ROTS might have in its cut Clone War prelude featured Anakin on one mystical world with Mortis esque qualities redux as in a Mortis light version, very brief, like only a brief metaphysical intermezzo before returning to action paced war. Or switched, in AOTC Anakin expanded as Qui Gon calls out No to his Tusken massacre? And in ROTS a Yoda Dagobah plotline culminating in his return there post movie?

Anyway, the Mortis Arc and Yoda Arc visualising the concepts Lucas so far only talked about or had woven into the background of his trilogies was very helpful for many fans and confusing to some others.

As for the Lucas ST,

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given its closer to ROTJ setting and thematically Luke trying to rebuild the Jedi Order:

His search for Ach-To and the original Jedi might have lead him down the rabbit hole of more and more metaphysical experiences which then would adress the nature of it all as Lucas microbiotic world and all related concepts.

This trilogies nemesis would be more familiar and require less setup than the actual ST did with its new Orders and Empires and Darksiders freeing space and time for other concepts.

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No, sadly, he as well as I who favored this theory about the Priestesses as well, were wrong on that front. At least partially.

The Whills as Lucas sees them, are different from them as they appeared physically. But there still is a chance that the Whills or some of them could actually pose as them. But as I see it after reading Archives, the Priestesses (not namedropped in the book btw) are a manifestation of Yoda's inner world and state of being as much as most of the Force Worlds insides. They are more like a conduit through which he can communicate with the Whills rather than Whills themselves. More Priestesses or Shamans of the Whills than actual Whills (interesting that Yoda met Priestesses and Qui Gon a male version as a Shaman). Likewise if one were to take Mortis godly Trinity of a family as the same as the Priestesses, then whatever all those are is different depending on who adresses and views them. They appear to each befitting of what he/she expects.

Anakin lacking a Father hence met a Father on Mortis, and a family lacking a mother like he missed his mother.
Yoda met Priestesses split into emotions, as he struggled most with Jedi Dogma about emotions and guiding the Jedi who all struggle with one or the other emotions and keeping them in check.
Qui Gon met a Shaman or Shamans of the Whills likewise but probably split into quite different categories befitting his views.

A lot in Mortis and Force arc is very metaphorical and yet inuniverse physical. Think of the Force Arc scene where the priestesses give up their humanoid shape and become these tiny glowing balls of luminous light that fly around, much like the light dots around that Force World that are said to be Midichlorians as it is their "birthplace". In that form, they are closer to the Whills than in their other shape. This Arc truly is microbiotic as it is as much a journey below the Force Worlds surface as well as inside oneself, facing ones other parts and shadow self. Inside out kinda, and as above so below. Macrocosm = Microcosm and the fractal universe has humans struggle to believe that they are comprised of many lifeforms and likewise are a part of a larger cosmic organism. (Yub, the Gaia hypothesis)

But it is not just about micro- and macrocosm. Those are just two parts of the physical world and system. That then again is also embedded into the metaphysical world that stretched beyond life, beyond death and encompasses all before and after those two as well.

And to go back to some Midichlorian Science: Lucas talks about literally energy and how it flows. Energy that initiates cells doubling themselves to create more complex lifeforms and life. As well as energy before there is life, and after it is dead. As in physics the energy conservation law states no energy can be destroyed, only altered into another form of energy. Hence if life is energy, all is energy, nothing can ever die or be destroyed, only altered into a new state of being and existance.

And nope I did not give the full scope of it yet. But you lured some out of me.

 

@ColeFardreamer

Well I love the Prequels too but too say they don't have flaws is a bit far...Heck I think A New Hope has flaws, hence why it's honestly one of my least favorite Star Wars.

And to be clear I like Phantom Menance MORE than A New Hope...So no Prequel hate from me.

For example in Episode 2 they say a bunch of planet succeeded from the Republic and that their is corruption but we don't see any of it and honestly the Republic seems pretty fine throughout the whole thing.

Also I slightly disagree with your ANH example too only because a lot of the original drafts of ANH feel far more like PT Lucas then the final draft of ANH which had a lot of help but from many folks who were Lucas's colleagues.

But again ...That's a different debate and not one I'm really wanna turn this thread into.

True is true can be

I wonder if there is a discussion to have of what media should show what thing...Like if all this stuff like the Mortis arc works better in animation cuz...well...You can do way more with Animation than Live Action.

People I think have certain expectations with Live action compared to animations where you can get away with it more.

Granted the ST was pushing boundaries with the more weirder stuff animation had touched as you said like in TLJ...Although even I think it didn't go all out in the same way animation would have. Or maybe even Lucas would have.

If anything I think Lucas would have taken what he was doing in TCW visual and put it in live action.


Funny though how at the end of the day...The PT is more the political drama and the ST is more the spiritual story.

 

What media protrays a story and carries an idea certainly is relevant. Like in She-Ra or Korra with LGBTQ+ amongst many other elements, animation has the benefit people do look more at the ideas than the style, knowing the style is synthetic and not realistic. In live action, people look far closer at distracting elements like actors and actresses and how they personally like/dislike them for whatever reasons, be it looks, out-of-movie real world problems around them, or else. In Live Action they judge how realistic the movie captured the fictional real world instead of looking at the ideas behind the execution.

But there are some quite good live action films that nicely integrated animation elements, be it literal animation flashbacks like Kill Bill used for some scenes or animation styled live action sequences like in Live Action versions of formerly animated stories and movies that simply like the animation style done with live action. The Matrix trilogy for one, but also other Superhero movies or, unrelated to these genres psychedelical movies that bridge the literal and physical with the metaphysical by going to some crazy lengths in live action. Think the end of Interstellar, or Legion tv series going all out on it. Even Doctor Who has used these elements.


Some more food for thought:

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Is there Free Whill in the Star Wars galaxy?

Kidding aside, this entire business with the Whills, Midichlorians, Celestials, Ones and so on down to humans really feels like a gigantic matryoshka doll.To the point of who guides who and wears who and how much control does one have over ones own life if it is comprised of tiny lifeforms.. and likewise how much does one have over ones own life if one is a tiny lifeform part of a larger group and macrocosm.

 

@ColeFardreamer

First off...Why is everything in your post a link to your page ;p

Second off...Very true.

I think a lot of it would have depended on the execution (And the technology of the time) but part of me thinks more esoteric Star Wars has a better chance of being liked in animation than in Live Action given our fandom and just how people conceive Live Action in general compared to animation. Plus I think more stylized storytelling make the esoteric nature of things far more interesting and could really pop.

But as you mentioned there are also plenty of live action stories that are quite stylized and could make these elements work.

I do think in would have depended on the execution.

But I personally would like animation.

Edit: Oooh it's fixed now.


On another note

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Would have been very interesting to say how it would have gone down if Darth Maul was a major play in the ST

 

Some very intriguing stuff. With the ST having been and gone, I really hope we get to find out a lot more about Lucas' ideas for a ST. Maybe in the form of a book or something. I'm sure Rinzler would be all over that. It does seem as though that gradually more and more stuff is starting to trickle out.

 

I have a feeling will probably more likely than not SEE Lucas ideas for the Sequel Trilogy as they would get recycled into other projects.

 

Maybe in the future we'll see a comic adaptation like The Star Wars got.

 

I'm not really bothering with most of this - vague, coy teasing about inherently esoteric concepts is just annoying to read - but:

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Sifo-Diyas being Palpatine's first Sith apprentice, before Maul? That is really interesting, and does kind of feel like it clears up a lot of that once and for all. (Although it does also make the name similarity artifact even more irritating, but eh.)

 

@ColeFardreamer

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One has to wonder what sorta reaction would have happened if Maul had been the antagonist of the Sequels...Like him appearing in Solo caused a ruckus but him being a main baddy in Ep 7...Would have been wild.

 

I'd be more than happy to give you the full text and spoilers instead of being vague. But who then would buy the book if I spill it all beforehand? Besides, as mentioned before, I do not want to be the one who for a few clicks and likes posts intel fans wanted for 40+years, especially if certain parts of fandom are tearing each other apart over it for certain.

But as I can understand the wish for more direct quotes, here are some:

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George Lucas:
"Mythology is basically a psychological summation of history, taking an event in history, converting it into something that is psychologically more pleasing to an audience."

George Lucas (about TPM):
"I am prett close to finishing my second draft, which is officially called the first draft, which is in reality the 25th draft. I'm up to page 100."


This is the beginning of the much longer Midichlorian section:

Paul Duncan: "You introduced Midi-chlorians in Episode 1 as indicators of the Force."
George Lucas: "This is the cosmology. The Force is the energy, the fuel, and without it everything would fall apart. The Force is a metaphor for God, and God is essentially unknoweable. But behind it is another metaphor that, which fits so well into the movie, I couldn't resist it."

Later on, he also goes into the difference between the, as he calls it "Personal Force" and the "Cosmic Force". One's own energy created by ones own cells and body, vs. the cosmic energy our energy returns to as our body dissolves upon death.

Some of you might recall that there are already known earlier Lucas quotes about the Whills that sounded rather disturbing:
From Wookieepedia:

This is still true and heavily expanded and explained in Archives so that it no longer sounds as dark as it did previously out of context. The Whills feeding off the Force is another natural symbiosis and why they need the Force to stay strong and alive for without it they'd die. Hence them manipulating events for balance and upholding that symbiosis.


PS: I have to change my earlier statement, the Force Priestesses are indeed mentioned in the book in relation to Qui Gon Jinn and are said to be the same ones Qui Gon met and learned from, though other sources said Shaman(s) of the Whills as if they were male.

 

That wasn't entirely a criticism (although TBH your tone did rub me the wrong way) - I was mostly just saying that while I'm not interested in discussing a lot of this stuff without actually reading the book,

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I already find the Sifo-Diyas thing really intriguing.