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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Star Wars Archives Episode 1-3 The Prequels

Discussion in 'Literature' started by ColeFardreamer, Nov 6, 2020.

  1. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Didn't take it as criticism and I am annoyed to be unable to discuss it with folks before they got the book too.

    If everybody including mods is ok with spilling all the beans in one go, I might go for it and just post the photo of relevant paragraphs but as the sections about Midichlorians, Whills, ST and all are spread over lots of pages, its difficult to get it all in order. The book has plenty of huge pictures and the text is spread far and wide, cut off at one page and continuing 4 pages later only after lots of pictures. And excerpt and quoting laws might prevent from legally quoting too long a text. And you really need all that text to get the full picture as one topic flows into the next, especially with this metaphysical stuff.
     
  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I mean I have no objections to
    Sifo-Dyas, Maul and Talon
    but shrug.

    I like what we have.
     
  3. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    That’s a very interesting point about medium appropriateness.

    And I loved what we got and how we got it in TCW. Had it been a vaguer and more diffused storyline in the movies, would it have been as captivating? Possibly not. To be honest the television medium, and animation specifically, ended up being a fantastic medium for Lucas to express things that may not have worked as well in live action. So considering the alternative, I’m very happy with how we got it.

    I only wish Lucas had continued with TCW and any successor series. I’ve enjoyed what Filoni and co. have given us, but it does feel somewhat different without Lucas’s input. So it would’ve been great to keep him involved so he could finish sharing his ideas in a medium where, for a good many years, he got to play with free rein. But maybe that’s greedy of me.

    Going back to another topic, I love the elucidation on the topic of the Rule of Two. It certainly reminds me a lot of the Darth Plagueis novel, where secret apprentices and conspiracies seem to be the name of the game. Now I feel like I see more and more of Lucas in that novel than I originally perceived.

    And the way the old Sith wars are described, or at least the way @ColeFardreamer described them, I really think there are some great stories to tell there. I never did get into Knight Errant, but I wonder if others think a situation like that fits with the description of the feudal Sith society?

    There’s so much to talk about that I lose track, but I also wanted to say that I love the new insights into the Whills and midi-chlorians. It certainly seems like Lucas's statement that the Whills being the Force was not intended to be taken too literally. I love the mixture of mysticism, psychology, and biology that Lucas uses to talk about these things. I would love to look at his bookshelf and see what he's been reading and getting into all these years. There are certainly influences one can glean on their own (Alan Watts, for example?).

    And I'm still thinking of the idea of an old Maul in the sequels. I do remember that his first appearance in Rebels, as an old man trying to fool Ezra into becoming his apprentice, gave me strong Snoke vibes. So it makes sense that one character grew from the other in some way. This whole revelation is making want to re-watch Solo, which is not something I thought I'd say, as I do not love that movie too much.

    I'm still trying to figure out how Lucas would have cast that post-ROTJ movie. Was the de-aging / digital clone technology something that ILM started developing under his wing? Was that how he was planning on brining the PT characters back for that time period? Much to think about.
     
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  4. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    The 'dark times ahead' idea, implicit in c.TPM Sifo-Dyas/Dooku, seems to be a part of the ST and its prequel materials too. In fact, it seems to have grown from idea to 'ideology' (but always as a POV)

    This is the 'idea'. Dooku/Sifo-Dyas POV.
    Now, from idea to 'ideology'. According to Hamill, Luke thought Ben to be the chosen one, and the TLJ novel alludes to it:
    Was that archaic thinking, according to some? At some point after ROTJ, but before building his temple, this, from Ken Liu's The Legends of Luke Skywalker. Luke goes to Lew'el , and its inhabitants call the force 'the Tide'. Again, Dooku:
    So, Luke in Lew'el:
    [​IMG]
    ('Seeker' is Luke):
    Before this, Aya (a 12 year old girl) is able to fish. This is how she thinks:
    Ken Liu's story is called 'Fishing In The Deluge'. 'You have to trust the Tide to guide the fish and the tip of the spear together, and put yourself in the will of the Tide’s ebb and flow', says Aya. Was Palpatine a 'fish' for some, to be guided ultimately by his own dark tide? He was certainly 'fished' in Exegol.
    That would have made Luke's jedi efforts (his temple) unnecessary, and maybe even disruptive - he was just slowing the inevitable. But, if you believe in the Tide, you would have had to become a 'strategical' dark sider, more or less what Dooku is, from his own POV. 'It is fatiguing to play the villain for so long' he says in the ROTS novel.

    We know Kylo didn't destroy the temple or 'slaughtered' the students. He wasn't even Kylo at the time. We know Snoke trained (=was killed by) 'at least one other apprentice'. (Dec.2017. Ken Liu's novel had been released in October)
    [​IMG]
    'At least a place very much like it'. Lew'el was an ocean planet with scattered islands; and Seeker&Aya are not so different from Luke&Rey after all.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Maybe Lucas would give us “Star Wars: The Galactic Civil War”, which would be like TCW except during the original trilogy era. I’d be interested in seeing what Luke, Leia, and Han do or don’t know about Palpatine, what the people of the galaxy think of Luke, etc. Dismney-Lucasfilm seems unwilling to world-build because they think world-building is “prequelism”.
     
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  6. DarthTalgus

    DarthTalgus Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Wow Maul being the original villain of the ST would've been so spectacular, I got so excited reading this. I hope we get more of his treatments one day :D
     
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  7. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    I don't know exactly what the spoiler rules are for this thread, but just in case:

    The idea of Sifo-Dyas being a Sith apprentice of Sidious's before Maul is intriguing enough, and answers enough questions, that it makes me want to re-read Dooku: Jedi Lost from that perspective and see how it feels. His relationship with Lene Kostana, and her flirtation with the Dark Side and interest in Sith relics, ties in very nicely. There are probably contradictions too - I'm sure the existing canon lore contains plenty of references to Maul being the first apprentice, and where was Maul while Sifo-Dyas was Sidious's apprentice? - but storywise it makes almost a little too much sense.
     
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  8. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I get the feeling that Lucas sequel trilogy would have felt very TCW ...Like we'd be watching a live action version of the Animated Star Wars stuff.

    In some ways the closet I think we've gotten to that feeling is the Mandalorian...and maybe that's because Filoni is so heavily involved in that stuff.

    I have a bit more faith though later stuff in animation could still dive back into what Lucas was going for because I think future animated stuff will have bigger budget and thus more ability to be more...interesting with its animation.
     
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  9. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    TCW starred Ahsoka, but had the other big powerful older characters always around, Kenobi, Skywalker, Yoda, etc. and still Ahsoka was not tagging along or in their shadow but complementing them and growing on her own and outgrowing them without any of them having leave or die to make space for her. That is an incredible great feat characterisation and storytelling-wise.

    Too many other authors would not see a way to passing the torch without removing the old guard like killing them off or somesuch. Just look at how many times Legends failed at passing the torch despite trying wonderfully in NJO and onwards.

    In that regard I find it curious how Lucas trilogy would have worked with
    the Big Three around and not "old" yet and still have the next generation grow up among them and come into their own without killing off the Big Three to make space for them.
    The ST we got killed Han, Luke and Leia to do it even if they got interesting story arcs and deaths, they found no way aside removing them.

    That said, I liked the ST we got, despite TFA really not tasting well initially, probably cause of Reboot Trauma still hitting me hard back then and killing off my fav movie character Han Solo. But TLJ and TROS I loved and in hindsight TFA had many great new elements. Every trilogy has flaws, but now the story is told, I appreciate them all.
     
  10. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    I agree. And something else that I just found:

    I got curious about how this fit with TCW's Yoda arc, the last bit of SW that Lucas was involved in, and I found one of the behind-the-scenes videos with Filoni where he is asked about Sifo-Dyas. What's interesting is that, while he doesn't explicitly state what we just learned, he starts talking about how Sidious had Maul and Dooku as apprentices at the same time. Which, now we get why he would bring that up. But back then? I'm not sure if Filoni was trying to imply without stating it outright, but it sure does seem like that was the intention back then too.
     
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  11. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Lucas Sequel Trilogy:
    [​IMG]

    Gesendet von meinem FP2 mit Tapatalk

    Note this paragraph isn't all there is about the Lucas ST. There's more ;) detailing his inspirations for the story and real world paralells as aforementioned in earlier posts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  12. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Wasn't Luke supposed to die in his version of episode 8 in the treatments? I guess he changed his mind since then.
     
  13. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Nothing says Luke doesn't die. These brief summaries of his ST leave out a lot and Luke having set up a new Jedi Order does not contradict him dying for it to live along the way.
     
  14. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    True. No mention of his main character being a young woman training to be a Jedi?
     
  15. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    That bit about
    50 or 100 Jedi still around post-ROTJ is definitely going to blow some minds on the "no surviving Jedi whatsoever by ROTJ because Yoda said Luke was the only one left" side of the fandom. I wonder how or if Lucas intended to reconcile that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  16. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Well Kenobi lied... Yoda lied... "from a certain point of view"... :p They wanted to manipulate him to kill his father, they also lied by omission of such facts.

    But the paragraph also mentions Luke has to find little kids to train, so not many Jedi joining him I guess, or only their kids surviving in some Hidden Temple.

    Nope, just a mention of the next generation and SkySolo offspring. That a young woman is among that obviously needs no extra mention. But yeah Lucas ST concepts changed over time like every project does, so who knows what his first or last version did look like, before Disney took over.

    How long did Maul stay in? When did they switch to Plagueis? When turn Plagueis into Snoke?

    At what point did they remove Maul and keep Talon to seduce the male SkySolo child as in Art of TFA?

    When did the story shift from twins as in Legends to a girl only?

    When did the story move as far from ROTJ to allow for the next generation to be old enough to be training and seduced?

    The Lucas ST certainly involved a 10 years or more timejump to allow for that I think.

     
  17. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    @ColeFardreamer

    You essentially described the fan life cycle of pretty much every single Star Wars story ever

    Feels like anyone who went with the strict interoperation of ROTJ Yoda line would have lost regardless of what version we would have gotten.
     
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  18. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    The Rule of Two:
    [​IMG]

    Especially interesting I find how he describes the Jedi here. He goes into that a lot more in several other places and pages. It is not Sith are dark and Jedi are light. It is neither Jedi are dark and light in balance either, fighting the dark.

    Jedi arn't the balance, nore are they the light. They are in between the two kinda, close to becoming the balance, and still clearly sided on the light of the scale, but neither its extreme nor any middleground. Whereas the Sith are clearly out of balance and can be anywhere on the dark side, be it its darkest extremes or closer to balance but still out of balance too.

    Guess the Fallanassi were right about them in hindsight now, eh?



     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
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  19. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    So, what was GL's reason to sell LFL to Disney in the book?
     
  20. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    The Fans. Simple as that. Fan backlash against him and his creation. You already saw how it stopped him from continuing on what he intended for the PT and thus removed elements from the PT like the more metaphysical stuff after TPM got backlash about Midichlorians. It only got worse with the entire Prequel-Haters agenda after the PT was over. Fandom can be cruel and the loud and outspoken overshadow easily the big silent masses that enjoy the franchise.

    He does not talk Disney much though, or the sale. But its clear that he wanted SW to continue and Disney always wanted it and had a good relationship with Lucasfilm in the past with Star Tours and all. And I think, Disney being family friendly and sharing a lot of the values Lucas wanted SW to remain aided that decision. What happened after the sale though is not adressed at all.
     
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  21. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I still find some optimism that despite not going exactly the way they would have gone the way Lucas would have done it that these ideas and concepts continue to find a home in some shape and form. Thus making Lucas influence still present.


    Still I do wonder how one would have fit all these ideas into the films without making them 4 hour movies.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2020
  22. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Is there anything about him passing Lucasfilm on to Katie Lucas, McCallum, or Filoni had their not been such fan hatred?
     
  23. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    nope
     
  24. Jedi Comedian

    Jedi Comedian Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2012
    So, my first thought is that a lot of this is probably stuff Lucas came up with recently. The man has a history of changing his mind and pretending it was all part of the plan - and that's OK! I love the guy, but I don't really buy that he had all of this in mind all along.

    Honestly though, interesting as it is to read all of these "what could have been"s, I don't think I would have enjoyed his version of the ST, nor do I think it would have been well-received by the majority of fans and general audiences. I like Star Wars to be grounded in reality, even when discussing the mysteries of the Force. The idea of going into microscopic detail (literally) ... I can't envision how you would do that and still have a film that feels like Star Wars.

    More specifically ...

    Maul as the villain of the ST does not work for me at all. Maul has no relevance to the Skywalker Saga beyond TPM (I'm talking movies alone here). Having him turn up after five movies of not being mentioned and suddenly become the big bad would be totally random. It's like if Prof Quirrell had come back in Harry Potter and the Half-Bad Prince and been the final villain, or Obadiah Stane being the major threat in Avengers: Endgame.

    And more Sifo-Dyas nonsense? Sheesh! Why is there this insistence on taking this straightforward plot point and twisting it into the huge convoluted mess. And now Lucas is getting in on it? He can say what he likes, but there's no way I'm believing that Lucas always intended Sifo to be Palpatine's apprentice.

    Also, setting the ST roughly the same number of years after Return of the Jedi as had passed in the real world was the right call. Not only because it matches the actors' ages, but also because story is bolstered by the metanarrative of us not having seen these characters in so long. You'd lose that if only five years was supposed to have passed. Plus, Star Wars as a generational tale makes much more sense.
     
  25. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I mean

    That's the fun of Star Wars when it comes to the Sifo-Dias thing...Take a typo in a script and it becomes a character...Take a story in Revenge of the Sith
    make it a book.

    Star Wars is a constantly evolving thing regardless and sometimes sadly it might evolve into something people might not like but that's just sorta the way it goes.

    But like with TCW I'm sure younger generations would have loved it or embraced it...even if the older generation can't....Star Wars is also about passing the torch and strangely I think that's sorta a thing fandom itself gotta learn.


    Though I do agree that moving the ST to modern time was the right call

    This quote right here is Star Wars greatest curse...Becasue Star Wars feels differently to different people depending on who you ask.

    Remember we have a generation now that to them TCW is more Star Wars than A New Hope.

    And in 10-20 years we're gonna have people saying Last Jedi is the TRUE Star Wars

    etc etc. etc....

    I'd argue that is sorta the genius of Lucas is that he's better at cultivating new generations who will just accept it as Star Wars then trying to appease the old generation which is something you could argue Star Wars has done a bit too much of as of late.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2020
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