Lit A/V Star Wars Episode IX: Duel of the Fates

@Sauron_18

The Oracle and Tor Valum serve the same story purposes in both stories despite different backgrounds and ultimate designs. But Tor Valum in some concept art had a triangular head like the Oracle creature on the sleeping giant child, which is the only similarity in looks existing.

A bit farfetched but one might consider Tor Valum to be the canon version of Jedi Master Odd Bnar, a rooted Neti who can't move but still teach on Ossus in Legends. Tor Valum as 7000 year old Sith teacher without aspirations to leave or rule himself sounds rather rooted in place too. Both are guiding forces for the hero and antihero in their respective stories. Also trees played a role in Tor Valums story as Kylo learned to suck their lifeforce out of them in DotF, like an evil homage to Odd Bnar and his dark side counterpart taking other trees lifes!
And as we know Episode IX drew heavy inspiration from Dark Empire, Odd Bnar was featured and originated in Dark Empire before his previous life got expanded in Tales of the Jedi comics in the distant past.

 

Indeed, it seems like the Oracle had a mostly independent development process, with the more triangular look being just one of many. According to the Art book for TROS, the idea for this character seems to stem from a concept that was originally considered for TFA, where a character is rescued by a shaman. In TFA I believe it was a protagonist who was rescued, but for TROS this was considered for Kylo.

Of course, Tor Valum was also essentially a shaman, like Yoda in the OT, and while the art book probably can’t reference DOTF too much, it’s not unlikely that the creative work done for Tor Valum could’ve eventually influenced what was done for the Oracle.

But I’m very curious about where Trevorrow got that idea from, or if the fact that a similar idea was considered even earlier by Abrams could imply this role or something like it was in the earliest treatments of the story.

Knowing the Whills would’ve played a role in the original treatments, and acknowledging that at least Trevorrow was knowledgeable enough of TCW to include Mortis as a central story point, I wonder if this all stems from a character not unlike the Force Priestesses, who essentially seem like the long-referenced Shaman of the Whills. Certainly, Tor Valum’s knowledge of ancient lost Force secrets related to harnessing the living Force would fit well with that.

 

The Whills certainly echo through the character concept, though I wonder how much of them at all would be left in the final designs if anything. The symbiotic nature of the Oracle, or rather parasitic, reminds me of the symbiosis emphasis Lucas put into his microbiotic world and the Whills.

Again, I think the story purpose of the character tells us more than the design, which varied a lot more than the purpose. The Oracle and Tor Valum both are ancient. 7000 years dates back to the origin of the Sith (going by Legends timeline which canon still mirrors). That number probably would not have survived till final stage. But a character as old as the origin of the Jedi/Sith, guiding the hero along, was a waypoint in the story and not the endgame. From the Oracle he gets a Wayfinder, from Tor Valum he learns new Forcepowers to drain life and return it, to basically guide the flow of life itself either way. Duel of the Fates laid more focus on the dark side version of Force healing/draining and thus that rhyming between Rey and Kylos special powers.

While reduced to a mere sign "300 parsec in that direction to Exegol" in TROS, the character originally was teaching more about the nature of the Force itself. In that regard, a Whill, or character as old as Jedi and Sith knowing their entire story from beginning to end would be interesting in that role. Both Rey and Ben learn of the essential guiding forces of life and how to wield them, each in their respective interpretation of the Force, light or dark, and ultimately learn that they are the same and working together can share their lifeforces between each other.

From Valorum to Tor Valum... the saga came full circle. Nice name paralells there too!


But nice you brought up TFA and old TFA concepts revived for IX: With TFA a very medieval version of SW full of castles and clans and a shaman originally, I wonder how the original elements would have happened. Was the shaman just a shaman of some culture or supposed to be more, like Tor Valum? Older and more relevant? I think the shaman concept got recycled into Maz Kanata who is the wise guidance character in the middle of TFA much like her dark counterpart Tor Valum would have been in IX! Maz is a Forcesensitive, millennia old, but no Jedi, much like Tor Valum is no Dark Lord of the Sith but a Teacher OF Sith.

Another TFA concept for Ach-To that went unused had plenty of more action and relevance to the Ach-To duality and the dark side of Ach-To. Remember the rumors of Luke keeping some evil at bay there, or being trapped there by someone or something? Concept Art even showed that, using the red and blue duality colors TFA was so fond of. Concepts even had Rey enter the cave and find or free Luke there. And more characters, be it spirits of Vader/Anakin or else might have appeared there. TFA was conceptually overkill where they tried to push everything in before cutting a lot out again and reusing some of it later in new ways like in TLJ.

So with IX's DOTF having a dark guidance character on or leading the way to Mortis important locales, TFA had a light guidance character in a shaman and later Maz that paved the way for Ach-To. Both, Mortis and Ach-To conceptualised as worlds of balance, before Ach-To was more a Light Side opposite to Exegols dark side nexus.

While we know some bits where Luke would have dropped in on the heroes on Starkiller Base, other endgames took place either on Ach-To with Rey finding Luke or Ach-To found by the First Order as well as both race to get first to Luke.

One can truly say, TROS is to TFA what ROTJ is to ANH. A mirror and using and expanding concepts the earlier one didn't or did do less.

 

Per the TFA book, it seems the shaman had a relatively minor role, separate from the Yoda-like character from later in the story. The shaman’s tribe would have rescued Sam (is that Finn?) from the TIE crash and performed some kind of healing ritual. It seems perhaps like an opportunity to add some flavor to the movie by introducing new aliens and their customs, which is ultimately similar to the visual function the Oracle would’ve had, beyond their function in the plot.

But again, these are all ideas from those early stages of movie-making where things flow in and out of each other, relating in different ways to developing storylines, or sometimes not at all.

But I think you might be onto something regarding how extremely old Tor Valum was, which would likely place him early on in Sith history. And like you mentioned, his name is based on that of the original Sith Master in some of Lucas’s early drafts. Not that it means much, names evidently change characters for no rhyme or reason, as the good old Chancellor could attest. But I do think that’s what Trevorrow based his name on, and indeed it would’ve been intriguing to find out more of Sith history from an old teacher of Sith who must have been neutral enough (or had enough power) to survive their many deaths.

But if the character did relate to the Whills, I wonder if knowledge of the Whills was meant to be something the Jedi Order had even in the prequels, but which we just didn’t see because it wasn’t relevant? Or would it be something the ancient Jedi knew and forgot, or perhaps even something that was known only by older Force users, like the Ones of Mortis or the Force Priestesses? (And possibly Tor Valum if he had ended up existing)

 

The Jedi Order probably had knowledge but kept it hidden in the archives or saw it as less relevant given they abandoned many older traditions and lore bits. Be it Mortis, farseeing or other stuff as Master & Apprentice and Dooku, Jedi Lost mentioned. They may know something but have lost the concepts or meaning behind it.

See Bendu in Rebels, another ancient creature akin to the Ones or Tor Valum, that teaches and otherwise hides reluctantly without much influencing society.

I think we are looking at different archetype interpretations of "the hermit" here. Bendu is content with non-influence and when lured into helping has to balance it out with both sides. The Ones are hermits that stay locked away for safety but still try to balance something out. Tor Valum seems less balanced but in the end aids in balancing indirectly, as all darksiders do play a part in the Force's masterplan and will. The Oracle likewise seems creepy dark but is just natural and helping. TLJ Luke is also a hermit for another reason, to keep himself out of the equation, as well as to punish himself. Yet he ends up helping and rebalancing the scales.

All of these examples show characters, be they ancient or not so ancient like Luke, that reached the epitome of knowledge and skill in the Force and for different or not so different reasons decided to get stuck in one place but still served, helped, even if reluctantly. Some fear their overpowerful influence on the galaxy others remove themselves to give it freedom to evolve itself.

The Whills, microbiotic and essential, would probably in Lucas version be less an externalised hermit character. That is only a shaman or priestess of the Whills then probably speaking on their behalf, so that everyone can connect with his inner Whill and speak with them through the midichlorians and the Force. No longer erring in interpretation over interpretation on the Force's will but actually talking and understanding directly connected to its.. Whill!


PS: The High Republic books really show Jedi with more diversified knowledge experimenting with the Force to discover new meanings and uses and less giving up on some of it as the PT did. Great books and truly luminous in that regard!

 

And, interestingly, this is the same kind of figure that Yoda becomes by the time of the original movies. He is then perhaps at the height of his spiritual powers. And before the prequels, this was what the Jedi simply were in the eyes of many fans. At least, that’s my understanding. And like you mentioned, Ood Bnar certainly fits the bill.

So I can certainly believe that Yoda could have told Luke about the Whills in their lessons, even if we never saw it come up onscreen. And that would mean the film exploration of this other aspect of the Force would have been a discovery for the new Jedi characters and for the audience, but in-universe it could simply have always been part of every Jedi’s training.

I’m not sure that fits with all that we see onscreen. But the idea that the Jedi we saw in the prequels knew all about these aspects of the Force we the fans are only learning about through interviews is very appealing. It adds layers to them, and shows us that even though we think we’ve seen it all through the movies, there is so much more to those characters, to the Jedi Order in general.

 

Looks like someone start making comics base on Trevorrov script
http://awinegarner.squarespace.com/duel-of-the-fates

 

I don't like the Script but this is pretty cool regardless!

 

WOW this is impressive, I love the style and how the artist incorporates not only concept art verbatim, but also other SW art and comic influences like exact matches from the Thrawn Trilogy Comics Coruscant Imperial Palace panels and other elements. The artist knows its stuff.

 

So I have not read the script in its entirety, but only bits and pieces so it's kind of all new to me.

I read the first issue of the comic and I had to read it twice to figure out what the plan was - use thermal detonators to take out the First Order orbital ring/fleet around the planet Kuat - which fails. So with the mission failing, the intro to this movie would have been an "exciting" Rey double blue lightsaber surprise reveal, Poe/Rey drama from out of left field, Finn/Stormtrooper drama, and a Knight of Ren having the darksaber which is probably the most interesting thing that I want to know more about. The good guys were able to steal an Imperial ship so I'm sure that'll set up an event to happen later.

 

I guess the ship and its size didn't make an impact on me, nor did the random refuges throwing rocks because they happened to see a Jedi.

 

This is back on the brain again

So even though I dislike the overall direction of at least the first draft part of me does wonder ....What were exactly the reasons for dropping Colin Trevorrow.

Considering he was dropped before Last Jedi it couldn't have been a reaction to that movie...Because before the movie was released Lucasfilm was pretty gun ho about Last Jedi to the point Kathleen Kennedy loved Rian Johnson (And still probably does considering how his production was the most smooth)

Was it his direction with Kylo Ren?

Was it his whole Balance of the Force Angle

Was it just the scope of the movie and Lucasfilm/Disney didn't wanna pay

Or maybe they just didn't think he was a good enough writer?

Man I hope someone spills some beans on this one day soon.

 

Without delving into my feelings about the film or this script again, I'd say that everything that happened in the development of TROS is about exactly three things:

1) Carrie Fisher passes away unexpectedly
2) Literally nobody working on the film has any idea how to deal with that
3) The release date isn't changed as it almost certainly should have been

The entire process that took place in that too-short timeframe didn't even allow anyone to develop a strategy, much less for the factions involved to agree on one. Even if you like the final result, it's a fact that big changes were being made right up until the last minute because there was no consensus on what was being done. I'd imagine decisions like the firing of Trevorrow and dumping of his script were made mostly because *something* had to be decided. If I had to guess, I'd say that the script was rejected after it was decided JJ was coming on board, not because of anything in it so much as the fact that JJ would want to do his own thing, or not do it at all.

 

You also gotta wonder then by the time Last Jedi was released it was pretty much a matter of "We're tired of the ST now...Let's move on the new things like Mando"

I can imagine just chaos after chaos probably just created a mentality of "Let's just get this over with and move on"

But I think your right once Carrie died everyone sorta loss the momentum here and since I Disney didn't wanna budge on release date...That was sorta it.

(Hate to say it but one has to wonder what would have happened if Ep 9 got delayed because of Covid)

It's probably why I like TROS as much as I do since its as probably the least bad scenario that could have happened given the circumstances.

 

Except that if you move one little circumstance -- sticking to the release date -- it could have been different. I really believe that given one more year and a less panicked atmosphere, JJ, RJ, or even Trevorrow could have broken a better story and directed a more cogent film than what we got.

 

there are non-SW factors leading to the dropping of Colin, he had a movie come out while working on DotF that flopped big time while his previous one was a big hit. They hired him due to the hit and were worried after the flop of his latest movie, which was a personal project he had as much freedom with as with TROS, that his DotF may share the same fate. Before he delivered a hit but was not as free with the Jurassic World success as he was with his flop and DotF.

Personally I dislike that trend in Hollywood and Disney given each director and actor has many flops and hits, it can't always work and oneup each predecessors. Firing someone due to failing elsewhere is pure fear and no guarantee DotF would have failed.

 

Oh no your right, even if it was still JJ and he went with Rey Palpatine i still feel like a extra year would have allowed him to smoothen over some details and just make the film a little more streamlined in getting from A to B.

Personally I wish they pushed a year and gave it to Rian to wrap it up but that's just me ;p

My guess is that they were designing Galaxy Edge during the DoTF era to make it more aligned with that movie but then stuff happened but since Galaxy Edge was already underway ...They didn't change much....Cuz Theme Park timelines and movie timelines are a bit different.

 

Hattaska Ren with the darksaber fighting Rey alone I think would've made for a much better film. But Sollony Ren made for a better boss villain and probably could've had a cult following. Trevorrow at least took the KOR and Jedi Rey more seriously in his scripts, and Kylo remained a villain .

 

One of many reasons i prefer TROS more.

 

What about Sollony Ren (DOTF last draft, sep.2017)?

According to MSW, she was 'maul-like' and 'female' and 'from Dathomir'...not very different from that Dark Rey and her Gollum moment in TROS.

Those names. Rey Solana, Ben Solo, Kylo Ren, Sollony Ren.

Solana=Solo+Organa
Kylo=Skywalker+Solo
Sollony=Solo+?

Well, Kylo kills Snoke like Han kills Greedo in ANH. A distraction 'under the table' (the 'I don't have it with me' line in ANH), with Snoke's upper half stumbling over.

Maybe Ben knew the story. Solo the cold-blooded killer. Not a story your father would tell you.

Then, who? Luke didn't see it. Obi-Wan didn't see it.

Jenny? She almost made it into ANH, but remained in the corner of the film's eye so to speak.

Solo+Jenny=Sollony...just two months before that (Jul.2017) we had the Qi'ra/Maul/Dathomir combo.

Maybe 1977 Jenny was retconned into something else. Shapeshifters are always something else. That's witchcraft, when related to the force.

 

Lucasfilm's knee-jerk reactions in their choice of directors is maddening.

Speaking of which, I thought for sure that the forest planet in TROS was going to be Batuu (especially after reading Black Spire). It seemed like such an obvious cross-platform tie-in. Was Abrams not aware of what was going on with Galaxy's Edge, or did he just not care? Lucasfilm seemed to put Batuu in everything they could publishing-wise, so you'd think they would've made darn sure that it turned up in the films themselves.

 

Kind of surprised myself that Batuu wasn't seen

 

I need some opinions, the DotF Kyber-Light system below the Jedi Temple that can call the galaxy to arms... if canonized, when would you place its use in the distant past?

Obviously it was installed early on with the Jedi Temple construction some 4000BBY going by Legends dating. So it might have been used in the old Sith Wars, in the NSW too. OneCanon may elaborate on it given the lack of canon past so far. I'd love for TOR to include it in some future update. The idea is too good to not use somehow.

And it kinda sounds like something that might work in the NSW despite the Holonet being down and all that.

I like this... a lot! Etymology with a twist.

But aside the Jenny reference in the name, I think a female from Dathomir as Knight of Ren is a candidate for canon version of Tenel Ka... if Ben Solo's Jacen Solo cosplay is anything to go by. Hope he at least had a girlfriend on the dark side before Rey if not in the light.