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  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Saga Star Wars Ring Theory

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MikeKlimo, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. MikeKlimo

    MikeKlimo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2014
    Hey guys,

    I hope it's okay to post this here.

    See, a couple of years ago, I kinda stumbled upon something about the movies. In fact, I'm fairly confident that other than George Lucas and maybe a few of his close friends, no one knows about this. It could be the mother of all easter eggs--as well as what I think is a pretty significant contribution to cinema and storytelling in general.

    That is, Lucas designed the prequels kind of like puzzle pieces that would fit together with the original movies--and together they form a picture that brings significant meaning to the saga.

    Yes, I know all this sounds crazy. But I assure you, the evidence is overwhelming and it's real. Lucas is being far too humble in choosing not to discuss this. I don't say this lightly: I think what Lucas did has the potential to the change the way many of us look at the films. It certainly changed my perspective. For example, did you know that Attack of the Clones begins where The Empire Strikes Back ends and ends where Empire begins?

    I've posted the essay over at Mod Edit It's very long and very wonkish (it's essentially a short book that could never been published because of the amount of screenshots I would need permission to use).

    But I wanted everyone in the forums to be among the first to see this. If anybody could appreciate this, it'd be you guys.

    I really look forward to hearing what everyone has to say. Even if you don't read the whole thing, just flip through the pages and look at all of the comparisons and you'll get a sense of the magnitude of Lucas's accomplishment.

    Thanks for reading,
    Mike
     
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Attack of the Clones begins in 22 BBY on Coruscant.
     
  3. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    You obviously put a lot of thought and work into this!

    I've only skipped through the pages so far, but it seems very interesting. You mention a lot of points that have been discussed here as well, e.g. in the "Visual Links" thread or the compilations done by HevyDevy . You're probably the first one to form a clear theory like this. I'll read the whole thing when I find the time but I wanted to comment on one thing now: The juxtaposition of Coruscant Orbit, Coruscant Atmosphere, Utapau Sinkhole and Mustafar Lava on page 5. I love your idea behind it (decent to hell), but I'm just - again - impressed by the magnificent expressive power of these films. It's one of the reason I love them so much.

    Any chance there will be a more comfortable PDF version of your piece?

    One last thing: You'll probably get ridiculed for your work by some, if not many on the internet. Don't let it get you down! Even if you "overanalyzed" (I'm not saying you did, I haven't read it yet!) it, I'll take a person who maybe positively reads a bit too much into something over a person who brainlessly bashes the same thing any day at any time!
     
  4. MikeKlimo

    MikeKlimo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2014
    Supreme Chancellor, sorry, I should have been more specific...I meant visually and structurally, not according to the timeline. You'll see what I mean in the beginning of the parallel sections on Clones/Empire. There's a reason the camera pans UP, and Clones just happens to start in veritable "City in the Clouds."

    Samnz, thank you! Believe it or not, it took almost two years to put this together. So I hope the fans enjoy it. I tried to be as analytical as I could and support the theory with as much evidence as I could from the films and Lucas himself. Because I'm always weary of people reading too much into things (particularly in art) so I tried to keep it as grounded as possible. I think you're really going to get a kick out of how Lucas employed the "descent into hell" motif throughout the six films. I hope I can convince you that it wasn't my idea. ;)

    I'm working on a PDF...there's just so many screenshots it's become a little problematic.
     
  5. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Saw this when you posted it on Facebook the other day. Been meaning to properly go through it.

    The idea, in part -- while a lot more fleshed out -- is similar to a contention of mine that one way of looking at the films is to see them as occupying concentric circles, meaning that TPM is twinned with ROTJ, AOTC with TESB, and ROTS with ANH. You have wonderfully expounded on that and come up with an elegant, persuasive reading that seems a sheer joy to behold (I read a few pages the other day; maybe this evening, I'll start again and read the whole thing without distraction this time).

    You definitely have something with this idea of "rings". The saga is shot through with allusions to circles and circle-forms of different kinds. My own avatar pays homage to this symbolic construction with a series of double-door shots from TPM folded in on each other in a sort of kaleidoscopic wheel or gear. Just a fun thing I threw together a year or two ago. I became entranced one day when I noticed that ANH has, I think, one door that splits apart from a middle (the door to the Death Star conference room), while TPM has something like a dozen. Later, I was mucking around in a paint program, and I thought wrapping all the frames into a circle made a neat effect. There is so much visual meaning encoded in the films; but it does all come down (ultimately) to personal interpretation.

    I second Samnz in suggesting you peruse the work of HevyDevy who has put together some terrific compilations of visual links between the six films. A recent thread of his collates connections between TPM and ROTS:

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...ee-warning-image-heavy-slow-loading.50023053/

    I think you may also gain enjoyment from the following pages:

    http://starwarsverses.tumblr.com/

    http://www.mstrmnd.com/log/1241

    ^ Just some light reading there. *cough* :D

    Anyway...

    Welcome to the board, Mike. :)

    P.S. The best place for a thread like this is probably the saga forum:

    http://boards.theforce.net/forums/star-wars-saga-in-depth.10456/
     
  6. MikeKlimo

    MikeKlimo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2014
    Sorry, I hope I didn't overstep my bounds with posted it in the wrong place. You think I should still post something in the in-depth thread?

    Facebook? Really. I messaged a link to Paul F. McDonald (author of The SW Heresies) on Facebook but I haven't put it up there yet. Weird....

    So Ring Composition is really a more complex version of the ancient literary device of chiasmus or "inverted parallelism." I argue that Lucas used it as the overarching pattern of the saga, which is a real first in cinema. If you scroll down on page 1, you'll see the first diagram that shows how Lucas linked TPM to ROTJ, AOTC to TESB, and ROTS to ANH. But keep reading, and you'll see that Lucas had a couple more tricks up his sleeve and took the concept even further. It's unreal....

    I've actually enjoyed starwarsverses for quite some time now.

    And I'll definitely check out the work of HevyDevy.

    Thanks for your comments. It really means a lot to me. I hope you read more and let me know what you think!
     
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  7. Cael-Fenton

    Cael-Fenton Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2006
    I haven't had time to peruse the whole thing carefully yet, but I've read the introduction closely and flipped through the rest. It looks amazing, and is probably the best-structured articulation of the intricately baroque visual craftsmanship of the Saga I've seen. I'm really looking forward to going through it in detail when I get the time!

    You must have put a lot of time and effort into this...thank you so much for sharing it.
     
  8. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Well, a mod/admin will probably port this thread across to there. No biggie.

    That's where I saw it. I'm a friend of Paul's on Facebook.

    Yes -- pretty amazing analysis. There really is some depth to the techniques you've explained.

    Awesome. The one to really try and wrap your noodle around is the MSTRMND link.

    He's a fiend for visual links. Dialogue links, too.

    No problem. And I will. :)
     
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  9. MikeKlimo

    MikeKlimo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2014
    Cael-Fenton, I can't tell you how much that means to me. If you can believe it, it took almost two years to figure it all out and put together. And I've wanted to share it with everyone here for so long....I really hope you get the time to go through it. I'd love to hear what you have to say!
     
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  10. Darth Zannah

    Darth Zannah Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2014
    "I'm so confused" - C3P0

    Just kidding. I'll give it a serious read later but it sounds like you're going really deep into this, similar to this one guy @ lardbiscuit.com. who wrote a straight up master thesis on ATOC and went super deep into the mythological meanings throughout the film...personally I think he's bringing his own meanings to the film, rather than analyzing what Lucas really put there...I might be wrong though...I just don't understand why Lucas would be such a genius in this regard but write a screenplay that seems like it was written by a 12 year old.

    I'm going to read your work later tonight but by already browsing through it I can see what you're getting at. If you've ever seen the making of PM documentary on the DVD even he says his reoccurring themes "are like poetry, so that they (the films) rhyme..."
     
  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    You have my thanks for such a refreshingly interesting article. My only criticism is that RLM's "reviews" are cited, linked and used as a starting point to your well structured argument and theory. I don't think it deserves to be mentioned due to being the complete opposite of your endeavor (substancial, reasonable, serious and logical).
     
  12. Darth Zannah

    Darth Zannah Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2014


    I agree RLM is not a guy who should be taken seriously at all..his reviews are comedic and fueled by emotion...very few of his criticisms have merit to me...to cite RLM as a credible review only brings your work down...but I understand why you bothered...his "reviews" have brainwashed the masses to criticize the prequels for mostly not being exactly like the imagination of millions of fans who've had 17 years to day dream what the prequels should be like....A SMALL portion of his criticsms can be taken seriously..mainly towards ATOC in my opinion
     
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  13. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Hand of the Mod Squad and Enforcer of the Realm star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    MikeKlimo Actually, while the topic is OK, self-promotion on this forum is not allowed. I will allow this thread to remain open, but will edit out the URL. You can put the URL in your signature line, however.
     
  14. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    That seems harsh.

    There is nothing about self-promotion being disallowed in any forum in the rules:

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/rules-of-the-jedi-council-forums.27141421/
     
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  15. MikeKlimo

    MikeKlimo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2014
    I apologize. I thought I read over the guidelines carefully.
     
  16. MikeKlimo

    MikeKlimo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2014
    Cryo: Major Facebook fail. I thought that was only seen by me and Paul. I thought you had to be friends with both people to see the post. Oops. ;)

    Alexrd and Darth Zannah, thank you so much your kind words. It really does mean a lot to me. And Zannah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with the decision to include anything from RLM. When you talk about the prequels, it's the elephant in the room. A very nasty, ignorant elephant. With any luck, this can act as some kind of antidote.

    And I admire the writings of of Lard Biscuit very much. (Wow, that was a weird sentence to type.) His name's Donald Trull and I spoke with him briefly over email about this, but haven't heard back from him.

    Thanks again for giving me the time of day and reading the essay. I can't wait to hear more about what you think! And any help spreading the word would be much appreciated...
     
  17. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Well, he was only 29 when he started writing SW/ANH, so that's "relatively" close to 12 and he should be excused :p[face_laugh];)

    PDF would be great! I can definitely imagine it took you two years, there is a lot of research and dedication detectable and I appreciated who tried to stay ad rational and analytical as possible!

    Overall, having read most of your theory, I can say that I enjoyed it a lot. Let's start with a very small "error", though: You go back and forth between referring to TPM as "Episode I" and "Episode 1". I'm picky, but you should probably stick to one alternative (I vs. 1) :)
    I especially liked your idea about AOTC and TESB and their corresponding beginnings and ends, I haven't read this before. I also liked that you linked the color journey of both films, which is basically a regular "normal" parallel (the both start "blue" and later turn into "red") that also functions as a mirror/inversion (because AOTC's city in the clouds is "blue" while TESB's is "red"). The blues and reds of both films make them probably the most enjoyable for me, in terms of colors. Great.

    Spontaneously, I could thind of two further beginng/end parallels between ROTS/ANH:
    1) In the first Act of ANH, Obi-Wan receives a message from Bail Organa via Leia with his request to safely and secretely deliver the droids to Alderaan. In ROTS, towards the end of the second act, Bail Organa (and Obi-Wan) receives a message with a request to attend a special session of the Senate while he tries to secretely and safely transport Obi-Wan and Yoda to Coruscant.
    2) At the end of the first act of ANH, Obi-Wan tells Luke: "You must do what you feel is right, of course.". At the beginning of the third act of ROTS, Obi-Wan says (almost to himself) in response to Luke's father: "I will do what I must." (which, of course, also refers to Qui-Gon's "I will do what I must." to Obi-Wan in TPM).

    Although I regard RLM's "insights" as absolutely and unthinkably weak, I actually liked how you used his "points" to support your own theory and I feel like you saved yourself from a lot of otherwise to be expected RLM groupie standard reactions: "Go watch the RLM reviews and you'll see these movies are sooo baaaaaaaaddddd!!!!!!".
     
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  18. Alienware

    Alienware Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2013
    I just read through it and I'm very impressed. I would say this is the best interpretation of the saga I have ever seen. Absolutely love it, thank you very much for putting your time and energy into writing it!
     
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  19. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Great work Mike. And do not edit out RLM's comments. When you form a theory and compile evidence to support it, you take from all sources positive and critical. It only stregthens your argument to take his criticisms and turn them around to support your theory.

    A superb job so far.
     
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  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Just to be clear, my comment regarding RLM has nothing to do with it being negative or critical. In fact, I would hardly call it the latter. Negative criticism, as long as it's supported by well constructed arguments, can lead to a meaningful and interesting discussion.
     
  21. Darth Zannah

    Darth Zannah Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2014
    I just read the PM and ANH sections and I can dig it. I have no doubt that you are right about this. It reminds me of the whole "the Circle Is Complete" campaign from ROTS. I respect this deep analysis, it helps me like the films even more...going to read AOTC and the ESB section tonight...I want to see if it will get me to like AOTC at all because I can,t stand that one. However even in my negative review of the film I still noted appreciation for mythological themes such as dreams which I have no doubt you will address. What's going to happen to the ring theory once episode 7,8,9 come out? You think the films will all still rhyme?
     
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  22. Darth Zannah

    Darth Zannah Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Yeah but don't you think he should cite negative criticisms from reviewers who are educated and have prestige? I won't read any review from someone who doesn't have at least a bachelors degree in film . Screw all those IGN Aintitcoolnews reviewers...they think a good movie has to do with action...I bet RLM doesn't even have an AA
     
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  23. Seagoat

    Seagoat PT and Music Section Detective Potato star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    I have a LOT to say about this, but I'm too tired right now lol, so I'll just condense it

    The similarities, rhymes, mirrors, poetic devices, and patterns are the things that make SW beautiful to me. I knew it was VERY deep, but this theory has added a whole new layer of complexity to everything. I never imagined that it could have gone THIS deeply, yet it appears that even I have underestimated the artistic ability of SW to contain itself. It's like a mosaic, each piece holding each other up, yet more. They hold non-adjacent pieces at the same time. It's just.... impossibly poetic. I can't think of the proper word. There are similarities that I could never have picked up on. Hearing that the opening of ROTS is a recreation of the award ceremony from ANH.... holy crap

    Even the inverted images, the identical images, the positions of characters, their body language, facial expressions, the way the colours and backgrounds of the scenes reflect one another, it's simply amazing. I just cannot express my amazement in words
     
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  24. MikeKlimo

    MikeKlimo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2014
    I can't tell you guys how much your comments mean to me. I'm really just blown away. THANK YOU! Please help spread the word across social media if you can. These movies (and Lucas) deserve far more serious critical attention than they've received.

    And I promise I'll have some time in the next day or so to reply to everyone. Works been killing me...
     
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  25. MikeKlimo

    MikeKlimo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2014
    One quick note for Darth Zannah though...you have to let me know your thoughts about the Clones/Empire section. When I finally put my finger on what Lucas was doing with the film, my head almost exploded. Lucas's ability to play with film form is just unrivaled.
     
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