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TV Discussion SWTV Diversity Thread (Minor Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by AkashKedavra_93, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Vader'sGoodHand

    Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2014
    There are fantastic view points on this and I think I will weigh in on this. The reasons that we have not seen same sex couples, religion or things such as this are 1.) We have been mostly following the Jedi through our travels. There has been no marriage or the need for relationships to form let alone dissect them. Zero the Hutt was considered bi-sexual and their species was considered to be that. So there we have an example. But in reality what will knowing that someone is a certain sexuality bring to the Universe or Star Wars. It isn't about marriage or love stories or sex for that matter. 2.) Religion isn't apparent either because God does not exist in SW. We have the Force and that is about it. I'm a Christian but I don't expect to see Christian qualities in a fiction show sent in a different time period or universe all together. Now is their slavery and intolerance in SW? Yes but it isn't in the aspect that we see it in the Modern World. We have to take the show with a grain of salt. Look at Harry Potter as an example. The only homosexual character we know of is Dumbledore who we found out about after it was all over and the author told us. Does it matter now? No and it doesn't affect the story that was put out.

    Edit: Once these things become apparent then all SW will become is a sounding board for both sides of the views. That is not what it needs to become. Just enjoy it for what is. A nerd's fantasy.
     
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  2. deathraygun

    deathraygun Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    StrikerKOJ Yes, I thank you for expanding and better explaining my point.

    I'll cite the OT as an example. Minimal connections to the real world. It was a worldwide success, multiple countries, languages,etc. It was pure fantasy, set so far apart from the real world that never once did I think.. "Yeah I love how the Empire represents X,Y,Z political/government/movement". It was just imagination gone wild, with no underlying agenda. That's what I want from SW.

    I referred to the different dialects, solely because it's gotten away from "unique, alien voices" to dialects based on certain countries. That doesn't make me more interested, that makes me think..wow.. Neimodians talk like Asians, that group sounds Scottish. Go back with the alien languages. I mean, Trek did a great job with their alien language creation.

    I want minimal connection to the world I live in. It bothered me when one medical trooper had a Red Cross on his armour, I mean really?? That's almost like creative laziness.

    As far as the gay stuff, don't pretend there's not a gigantic push to eradicate, destroy, and label homophobic any opposing viewpoints, and including not only a gay character, but showing a homosexual romance is another attempt to normalize that lifestyle. I don't want relationships to be the focus of my scifi nerd fantasy, hetero, homo, bi, asexual - whatever. But it's more and more common to see creators interject that scenario into already popular series in order to subvert what is taught and learned elsewhere. I mean we are talking about a show aimed primarily at kids/young teens. I hope no characters have relationships of any kind. Stick with what you know, contributing to the legacy through adventures.

    It's almost a dare, "let's see who's against the new ST cast, or the cast of Rebels, and then we can question them why, and assume anyways they must be XYZ-phobic." In a real SW universe, I highly doubt there's all these connections to our world, so many that we can't escape talking about them.

    The PT really started this whole trend, where it seemed GL started running out ideas, so therefore we got a very Italian sounding Watto. I think if I recall correctly, he even took some flak for supposed racial undertones of JarJar's character. And though there's a lot of Ahsoka Tano haters, is rather have ten more of her versus Eeth Koth, and Quilan Vos (TCW).
    /endrant
     
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  3. StrikerKOJ

    StrikerKOJ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2014

    I will preface this by saying I am not accusing any particular users here of this agenda, but it's just the overall impression that I get.

    This sentence is why I have bothered to put as much energy into this "debate" as I have. I couldn't give a damn what is or is not in the story. If it appeals to my personal preferences, great. If it doesn't, oh well, I'll try to find something else that does. Personally, I would love to see more space battles and star ships in the Star Wars media. I am not a fan on the focus on Jedi, and while the Clone Wars was a decent action show, my heart is more drawn to the imagery and technology from the Original Trilogy, so the show fell kind of flat for me. But all of this is my personal preference.

    What irks me is when someone else argues for more inclusion of their personal preference, but because their preference may relate to some real world social group or issue, they (general they) have this air of moral superiority, and any dissenting opinion must be rooted in narrow-mindedness, bigotry, racism, etc. It's doubly irritating for me because I happen to be Whitey McWhiterson, the Blue-eyed Devil, and it's just tiring to hear statements claiming people are racist because they disagree with a "minority", regardless of the context of the discussion.

    I just want the story to be good. Write whatever you want, and I will take it for what it is, and not assume some evil ulterior motive or inherent prejudice.

    So again, not directed at any one individual, and my irritation may strictly be related to myself, but I hope that helps clarify any previous statements I made.
     
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  4. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    So turn it around...is there any requirement that fiction Must not represent the real world and Must be largely made up of white, straight males?
     
  5. deathraygun

    deathraygun Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    There is no requirement, and I don't think anyone's saying that. On the flipside, if there's a movie that's predominantly lead by minority characters, then I don't personally really care. I don't see that it really matters. What does matter is when it's forced in the name of "fairness", or collective groups championing the "why does every lead have to be a white male?" As I said in my first post, it's great that there's not a white male lead in Rebels, except the Imps at this point, because it'll show how finically viable a show like that is. And if it's successful, then we can more of that, and hopefully it becomes a non-issue.
     
  6. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I don't like this forcing of representation. Diversity is fine when it suits the story the artist is telling.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
  8. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Tastes vary and it really should be artistic choice not a demand by the public to me. I'm not anti-diversity just the emphasis X MUST be in everything. No, it doesn't. If X isn't in a work it doesn't automatically equal denial or hatred as some act.
     
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  9. StrikerKOJ

    StrikerKOJ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2014

    I've skimmed through that thread, and read the OP, and still don't see any really compelling reasons why the lack of "diversity" in a work of fiction is a problem that requires a solution. As stated in the OP, there is a claim that "...the Star Wars Expanded Universe has a responsibility to present a diverse galaxy of characters...", which is a statement I fundementally disagree with. The creators of a work of fiction have absolutely no "responsibility" to do anything other than tell the story they wish to tell.

    Are there ancillary societal benefits to having a diverse cast of characters in a work of fiction? Sure there can be, and I can agree with the statement that it is easier for a person (on an individual level) to identify with a character that looks like him/her, but it's not a requirement, nor impossible for someone to identify with a character that doesn't look like him/her. Part of me also feels it's patronizing to insist that a viewer cannot identify with a character unless that character looks similar.

    Ultimately, the take away that I... uhh, take away.. from that thread is some people want more of something they like, and are using real world social situations as to why their likes should be in the work of "fiction". That doesn't really make a compelling argument, to me. While fiction can, and has been, used as a tool of social commentary, it doesn't have to be. Sometimes it's just meant for entertainment. Sometimes it's just a cash grab. Simply because a particular work of fiction happens to reach a high level of popularity (even with this supposed problem of a lack of diversity) does not impose any sort of social responsibility on the creators.
     
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  10. Heero_Yuy

    Heero_Yuy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Again, you keep arguing points no one made. No one has said there NEEDS to be a gay character in Star Wars. What they are saying is that'd it'd be nice for Star Wars to enter the 21st century in that regard. You seem to be taking this a bit too personally.

    I don't think it would be overly political to have, say Sabine, flirting with another girl or just showing a same sex couple at a cantina. I believe I even mentioned that I DON'T want an episode about something like gay marriage. SW's political eps tend to be the weaker ones after all. That said, having a character that happens to be gay and no one in the series things less of him/her for it would actually send a stronger message than the most impassioned speech ever could.

    And while it shouldn't be the major priority, I think creators ARE (or should be) responsible for allowing groups that may have been silenced and marginalized in the past to get fair representation. Especially if there absence was deliberate in the past. It's not pushing an, "agenda," it's being conscious of the reality around you.
     
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  11. StrikerKOJ

    StrikerKOJ Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Not sure where I have said someone is stating a "need" for one group or the other. I have specifically stated some people are arguing for inclusion of particular things because they "want" those things, because they "like" those things. I have not made a statement one way or the other regarding how any particular group can be included in the story. I have in fact been arguing that in fiction the writer is free to include whatever he/she wants. There are no rules or requirements to a made up story. That's it.

    To keep trying to bring specific (potential) plot elements or characters as somehow discrediting, or going against, my point is irrelevant, because I'm not arguing specifics. Of course Sabine could flirt with a girl, of course there could be a same sex couple in a bar, and as I said, there absolutely could be some ancilary benefit to a group of viewers by including those types of characters (namely broader appeal in the hopes of more sales). I also recognize there is a group of people who think more diverse characters should be included in the story for a number of reasons, all of which are ultimately just as selfish as my desire to see more XWings and Star Destroyers. All I am saying, and will say again, I do not believe that a writer must include anything in a work of fiction.

    So please, continue to express a desire for inclusion of the characters that you want, and more power to you. Who doesn't want more of what they like in the things they enjoy? However, I still strongly disagree that a writer (or artist of any form) holds any responsibility to anyone for anything, and demanding their art be modified to fit your (general your) desire is... wrong, for lack of a better word.

    **edit**

    And just because I write a lot about a subject does not mean it's personal. I just happen to have a lot of thoughts and use the language I understand to best express those thoughts. As I indicated, the only thing that I may take "personally" are implications that a writer is racist or bigoted because he/she did not write about what a particular group thought they should write about; and, as I previously stated, it is just the overall impression that I get from this discussion (in this thread, and on this board in general).

    The fact that there is a 3 topic long "manifesto" on the subject would seem to imply there are a group of people that do "take it personally" when their likes and wants are not fulfilled by a complete stranger who holds no obligation or responsibility to that group.
     
  12. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    One of the main things about the Lit diversity thread is a desire to see diverse casts in works. This much is plainly evident. The reasoning gets a little lost in the shuffle though. Here's why the lack of diversity is a problem- seeing the same type of person over and over again in a work just gets boring and creates a sense of homogeneity that doesn't exist, especially not in SW.

    That OP uses one image, I'll another:

    [​IMG]

    Oh look, a Star Wars character is even in there. The point isn't to force different character types on people, it's to include more than just more and more white people. Yes, you hear the homosexual example a lot because its a topical issue right now, and will continue to be so for quite some time, but that's just one example of many, especially in a universe where a person's sexuality is actually the least unique part of their individual classification.

    I'll say one possible advantage of the EU being relegated to a non-canon source for picking and choosing future SW elements- the old tendancy to turn every person who looked different enough from a "normal" human into a new species of alien. Hell, I'm half amazed Lando was never made a Bylidian or something equally ridiculous. For that matter, maybe Pantorans are human too, but are merely called that because that's where they're from, rather than it being the name of their species.

    Thing is, I don't see why the writers should limit themselves when there are countless cool and unique species to be used in SW. And just because it's not real life doesn't mean there can't be any "Asian" people or anyone with a "Jamaican" accent. Because these aren't Asians or Jamaicans, they're just people who look and sound a little bit different, and there's nothing wrong with that. Who knows? Maybe some voice actor will be clever and make up their own accent. Because the SW universe is just that diverse. There's no agenda or anything behind any of it. If Asian teenager connects with Sabine just because of her race, good for her. It's a side benefit that us not-so-diverse humans can relate to a handful of these characters based solely on their appearance. Does it stop white people from liking Mace Windu or Kanan? No. Does it mean gay people won't ever watch SW? No. If any of that rationale existed, Walt Disney would never have had a career, because what human can relate with a mouse, let alone a 7 ft tall guy covered entirely in brown fur.
     
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  13. Circular Logic

    Circular Logic Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Precisely. While I can see that they believe they are creating more variety, I thought the obsession with creating so many Near-Human species (Pantorans, Chiss, Zeltrons, etc.) was a detriment to the universe overall, especially in cases like the Ming Po, a caricature of Space Asians whom they deigned only to give a Near-Human classification rather than regarding them as human. From what I heard the original intent was to make it look like Death Watch was oppressing some alien species (not unlike the xenophobia of the Empire), but they decided to change this species to Ming Po, making them more human-like and relatable. But why not just regard them as human? There are so many diverse races in our own world, I'm sure Star Wars humans are the same way, and I'd like to see this representation better expressed in all future works. You can say the same about all alien species too, emphasizing the phenotypic differences amongst individuals. Rebels apparently is getting off on the right foot in this sense.

    I would love to see more of this in Star Wars. Have a true melting pot not unlike the Mass Effect franchise, where you can really see a diverse number of human characters, and many of whom are mixed race, and of varying sexual orientation that is universally accepted. Hell, the white male who has significant representation in media is a decided minority in this franchise. And no one makes a big deal out of any of this, as should be the case.
     
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  14. deathraygun

    deathraygun Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    Respectfully, that is your opinion, and solely one opinion among millions. I'd counter that with, having homogenous characters seems to sell pretty well. It's funny that you used that image, because when I see it, I don't automatically associate myself with most of them because I feel I'm looking at different ethnicities. Wouldn't most viewers tie into a character based on how well the character is written?

    Totally agree.

    There's absolutely an agenda, as evidenced by the fact that there's 3 separate threads all in regards to the same issue, one with tips on how to implement "diversity". Again, I think the fact that Rebels is supporting that is great, because if it's a success, there will be doors open down the road. By contrast, if it bombs and it's due to bad writing, or crappy character development, well... It may be a bit longer before we see another diverse cast of lead characters. And again, as far as agenda, was it purposeful to not include the typical white male lead?
     
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  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    "Typical white male lead"?

    I'd have to ask why it's "typical" to have a white male lead in the first place. And maybe the writing team just envisioned a lead that was not white or male. It really doesn't have to be more complicated than that, and I doubt that it is.

    I was fine with the lack of diversity in a franchise like LOTR, but at the same time I don't like the idea that the inclusion of a non-white lead, a female lead, or a gay character is automatically shoehorned or only there for political correctness.
     
  16. deathraygun

    deathraygun Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    "Typical white male" is what a vocal minority is advocating replacement of.. I would refer to LOTR and The Hobbit as having a pretty white, homogenous cast. Honestly, I'm not sure how I would feel about a black Gandalf, and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Makes me wonder if Tolkien envisioned the characters that way, or did Peter Jackson?
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I have a hard time imagining a script-writing party for the ST that included "no white dudes" in the instructions.

    My point being that just because the lead characters are not white males, does not mean that the writers and directors are intentionally excluding white males.

    Maybe they just really envisioned a female or person of color in the lead.
     
  18. deathraygun

    deathraygun Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    With the amount of marketing/strategy/investment, I think it's not a radical idea that the end goal be that the show was lead by POC or female lead. This is now the Disney machine right? Same group of people responsible for developing a new character (Sophia) based mostly, and self admittedly on luring Hispanic viewers. And based on the PT, Red Tails, and a bit of TCW, I think it's a safe bet that, yes, there was a guideline about that issue. It was GL baby, so he can/could do whatever he wished.
     
  19. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    But - but - the storyteller's vision...should we demand equal representation because of the lack of white male leads?
     
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  20. Arrian

    Arrian Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2011
    I would love if Sabine was a lesbian. Can you imagine the tears, on this board and elsewhere?
     
  21. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Admittedly the boring part is my opinion, yes. I'd argue it's way more than just one among millions, but that's beside the point. The rest of that post, though, is just a fact of life. We're all different, and there's a near-endless amount of ways we all look. And it's not that homogeneous sells, it's just that white people are the majority right now. People don't look at LOTR and go "Hey! Let's go see this movie, there's no black people in it!". It just so happens that white is the majority, so you're drawing a conclusion from pure happenstance. That's why people like myself advocate for fairer representation for POCs. I mean, everyone complained when TCW presented the Mandalorians as this:
    [​IMG]

    Because an entire planet-full of blonde, blue-eyed white people is just unrealistic in SW. Admittedly, though, when it comes to non-humans there's not a whole lot of diversity within a certain species. The Twi'lek species is one of the few that we ever see with different skin tones. SW both uses and avoids the Planet of Hats phenomenon, depending how developed a certain species is.
    No one is trying to replace anyone. The issue is less "we want less white people" and more "we want more black, Asian, Hispanic, etc. people".

    I'll give you this, sometimes there is an agenda when it comes to creating characters of color. But from my experience, that's a really infrequent practice and more often than not a charcter will be made black just 'cause, or a black actor will be cast in a white role because he's a good fit for it, despite the color of his skin.
    That was pretty much the intent behind the Mos Eisley Cantina scene. Not so much the sexual orientation part, but definitely the rest. Same with the Outlander Club.
     
  22. deathraygun

    deathraygun Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    Ah, I hope that day never comes, so we have to hear about "blah, blah,blah.. Where's my white dude." Rebels is fine. If that's the vision, sure rock and roll. I am all for it, only not for the sole purpose of catering to different minorities because uh, we don't want a boycott later on if we make it too white.
     
  23. deathraygun

    deathraygun Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    Which would be like a show being 75% white, 13% black, %19 Hispanic, 50%+ female, and 1-3% homosexual. And that's why I'm not sure how we got to a point of fairer representation. It seems like at this point, SW has done a better job of increasing female roles, especially in TCW, but totally failed on the Hispanic front. This only works if existing popular franchises/characters utilize something akin to affirmative action, because if someone created the all minority space saga serial, would it succeed? That goes back to Valairy Scot 's point about having access. GL did with Red Tails. It wasn't a success, but it also wasn't a failure (didn't make budget). The only proven way at this point in time if for it to be forced in, to achieve the end goal of "diversified" casting/characters.

    Anyways, I mostly disagree with your point about representing minorities, but I respect that it's your opinion.
     
  24. Heero_Yuy

    Heero_Yuy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    What, like tears of joy?
     
  25. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Just wondering were is it stated that they are not just standard humans?