main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Tales of the Jedi continuity

Discussion in 'Literature' started by darklordoftech, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    @Sauron_18

    I always preferred the Lucas interoperation of him channeling the Sith spirits. Especially in that moment in Ep 3 since I think the DarkSide just had a major shift in power so the ancient evils had to probably be happy that day.

    While Exegol I think that's a thing of just the planet is just so Darkside by nature, seems to be the heart of all Sith Evil, and Palpatine is doing a lot of weird alchemy and science and just trying to stay alive so there may be truth to his "I am all the Sith" line ....or at least he's getting some help.

    Though I'm sure it's also Palpatine is the Last Sith at the moment too so he's taking some pride in his position as the bearer of the ancient line.

    Take the line and the idea more literally and then you end up with things like that weird Darth Bane theory from the end of that trilogy which I'm not a fan off despite the author coming out and saying "No. It's still Zannah"
     
  2. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Haha, I'm sure I've said it before quite recently, but I'm amazed he was surprised by that. Repeatedly focused on a new physical tick he'd given Bane, introduced essence transfer, then gave Zannah Bane's tick at the very end.

    "Hey, why does everyone think Bane took over Zannah? That's not what I was trying to get across at all!"


    lol
     
  3. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    It's funny how basically Ragnos, Kun and Quel Droma are more remembered in post ROTJ Legends times than Vitiate and all the TOR MMO Sith. I know, out of universe reasons and all that obviously. But inuniverse it's really interesting how entire millennia could be forgotten or skipped by inuniverse historians. It's kinda like some Dark Ages where all records were burned and people forced to forget. Maybe some historians even changed the calendar deleting the years they want to be forgotten and pretending that they never happened, renumbering the later years as if they followed directly to the ones before that timeframe. I mean, there is real world precedence with such calendar changes and kinds and churches did all kinds of tweaking calendars in their favor.

    It'd be interesting if canon treats the Old Republic past like myths of King Arthur. Many tales about the same story, all differing and yet having the same core elements. Some claim Arthur was a roman soldier, others he was from Wales, yet others say Cornwall, and again others claim he was else entirely. Same inuniverse with Sith? Some historians believe that several Sith are actually one and the same? Others doubt that? Does history repeat itself as often as it does or are the same stories retold different and all have the same true core only?

    Could Exar Kun be Vitiate or one of his avatars and the Nathema Ritual was actually the same as Kun's ritual with the Massassi on Yavin IV? Might Revan and Bastila and Ulic Quel Droma and Nomi Sunrider be the same? Others proposed already that Darth Ruin may have been Exar Kun's Sith name, the NSW actually being the old Sith Wars and TOR then indeed lost in a Dark Age in between.

    What if the Sith Kingdom is nothing more than a Jedi colony project gone wrong and the Jedi zensors try to steretype it into an enemy and evil it never was to begin with?
     
  4. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    No, just no.

    Ain't that a rather new idea? Compared to much of the Arthur lore, at least
     
    Darth_Duck and Iron_lord like this.
  5. SheaHublin

    SheaHublin Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2008
    The Planet Hoppers article series for Yavin had a mention of "Exar Kun? Was he even a real person?" as an indication of general knowledge of him circa 0BBY. The treasure hunter character would also be the sort of person who'd try to get to the truth of those matters.

    Arthur was real, though all of that lore built up over the ages obscures a lot of the reality. If you or anyone else reading this is ever up for a real literary deep dive, read all books in the following:

    http://www.facesofarthur.org.uk/fabio/contents.htm

    ...it's a non-SW topic that I've read a lot about, and those books have me convinced.
     
  6. JediAvatar

    JediAvatar Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2020
    Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were Sith before the Sith became redundant and mainstream.

    Everyone likes to complain about bantam’s “warlord of the week” approach and yet these same people will usually have no objections to the Sith of the week approach that dominated the post-2005 EU. Most Sith are the same, at least the imperials like Thrawn, Daala, Ysanne Isard were all different characters. Yeah you could argue Kun is similar to other Sith, but at least he doesn’t have the generic black robes, red lightsaber and Darth title, the latter cliche getting silly in Legacy to the point where you could tell they were just thinking of random words and slapping the Darth title in front of it.

    @ColeFardreamer
    Exar Kun was the first Sith in the eu, publication wise, hence why Luke and co only mention him and not Vitiate, but we all know that. As for a possible in universe reason I guess the historical records about Vitiate were lost, or maybe they did know of him and just never brought him up. Either way I consider this to be a good thing because I don’t like Vitiate.
     
  7. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2009
    First appeared in the 1924, historian Kemp Malone theorized the Lucius Artorius Castus who grave was found in what was Davis, which listed he had survived in Britain may have inspired the name.

    In the 1974's the theory was expanded upon Helmut Nickel, C.Scott Littleton and Anne C. Thomas.

    They noticed similarities between Arthurian legends and The Nart sagas, particularly Bartraz and theorized that Arthur where inspired by stories that where introduced to Roman Britain by the Sarmatian auxiliaries who where serving as heavy Calvary in Britain under Lucius Artorius Castus with Artorius being transposed over Batraz as Arthur. Theory also proposes the ties of the Arthurian legends to Brittany in France come from the fact that some of the tribe of the Alans, who where related to the Sarmatians settled in Brittany in France during the late Western Roman empire.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
    Gamiel and ColeFardreamer like this.
  8. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    I loved the visuals for Legacy, and at first the prospect of many new Sith characters was exciting. But I agree that over time they kind of just seemed like too many, and they lost some of that coolness they had at the start. But Legacy, like TOTJ, at least tool real risks in taking the story to new places. Which cannot be said for a lot of the EU and even less for the new canon.

    The series I’ve been thinking of revisiting is Knight Errant, because they took what we learned about the Sith in the prequels and explored it in more detail. What would a world of Sith Lords really be like? I never understood Legacy’s One Sith explanation; it always seemed like a cop-out that didn’t really make sense. And the longer the series went on the more it seemed like it. But it was very beautiful, which unfortunately Knight Errant was not.
     
    AusStig likes this.
  9. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Knight Errant seems to be what Lucas had in mind for the pre-Rule of Two Sith.
     
    Ghost and AusStig like this.
  10. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I've never been a fan of Legacy's Sith Lord, but they suffer to much from mid 2000 comic book styles of edginess for my taste.

    I feel like the Sith should have a bit for refined nature to them....if not just classic black cloaks like Palpatine.

    TOTJ in my mind always felt more natural place to me than Legacy...Though I'm also a big ancient past guy and never liked the idea of Star Wars doing the 100 year into the future Next Generation thing (That always felt more like a Star Trek thing than a Star Wars thing)
     
    Gamiel and darklordoftech like this.
  11. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    The most memorial Sith often have a unique look. Krayt, Nihil, Talon and Malidi have this. So does Exar, Vader and Maul.

    JINO, Shira, and the Tribe generally don't, same with the rest of the One Sith.

    I think ToTJ had a lot more creativity with how it used the force and force users. It really went in on "Star Wars as space Fantasy", I mean the Jedi ride Dragons (kinda) in the first books.

    As well the force is just more 'magical' with the illusions and such. It is really cool.
     
    Gamiel likes this.
  12. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Regarding visuals of Golden Age of the Sith and Tales of the Jedi comics:

    Egyptian visuals were chosen because they looked like an ancient high culture and fit the bill for the times and era the stories were set within. 5000years ago in real life kinda mirroring visually 5000 years ago inuniverse here.

    But more specifically, why did they choose egyptians for the Sith? Why 5000 years and not any other number? Is it simply because oldest well known recorded history is of egypt times? And what are the Jedi then if the Sith are egypt? Going by Lucas original backstory for Jedi and Sith one might think, if Sith are egypt, then Jedi are the Jews on their exodus from egypt lead by Skywalker Moses. But that is not the story told in these past tales, which more went for Sith born out of Jedi that went dark rather than the other Lucasian version he cited in Archives the Prequels and developed later on mostly when switching a Light origin that split into light and darkness to a Chaos came before the Light arose ancient greek interpretation.

    We know SW is a mirror for the real world (despite escapism for some fans). We know Pablo loves his timeline corresponding to real world dates where the movie/era look and style is determined by timeline placement relative to real world decades. OT = 70s, Solo = 60s, PT = 30s-50s... which would make the ST kinda analogue to the 2000s but that didn't work out visually and nobody wanted to see Rey use a smartphone and wear Jeans (Unless you view the entire ST as a giant cosplay event celebrating OT era fashion!).

    Star Wars timelining originally was very biblical. 5000 year old egypt Sith, 7000+ year old origins of Jedi and Sith in mythic times, 2000+ year old Mortis family and Chosen One prophecy probably complete with 2000 - 1000 BBY Dark Ages.
    That'd make the High Republic basically into Napoleons era and republic expansions into Napoelonic taking of Europe or United States expansion across America.

    Now with Golden Age egyptian and Tales of the jedi featuring more Roman/Greek looks, it is a pity that KOTOR and TOR broke the tradition and did not keep up the visuals paralells. I mean, canon kinda is more sticking to that tradition than Legends was. Legensd had KOTOR and TOR more modern movie clones stylewise, while canon has this time of the past litered with medieval inspiration, starting with Crossguard sabers and Jedi castles like Maz's and other medieval callbacks since TFA onwards to that era. So any exploration of post TOTJ past or new KOTOR might follow this visual line more so than Legends had!

    Pity the High Republic so far is too shy to use the full visual influence for the Napoleonic era and likewise paralells.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
    Sauron_18 likes this.
  13. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I mean I agree on Caedus and the Tribe, but Lumiya? Pretty distinctive design and weapon, to me.
     
    ArindaRise, AusStig and Gamiel like this.
  14. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    I think Lumiya loses a couple of points for the Vader control buttons but outside that, yeah, pretty distinct and a great silhouette. (And I don't really mind the control panel: I understand why it's there)
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  15. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    I'm not sure I got from the Archives that Lucas considered the Sith to have pre-dated the Jedi. His story has remained that the Jedi are quite ancient, with the Sith only emerging about 2,000 years before the movies. The original Sith was a Jedi Knight who decided to use the Force to gain power, and so he left the Jedi Order and founded the rival Sith Order, which not long after destroyed itself and took a large chunk of the galaxy with it. Then the Republic was founded, and I do agree that Lucas seems to hint that the Republic followed on the Sith uprising. But there's also hints that, like in the new canon or in Legends, there have been multiple iterations of the Republic.

    What’s interesting reading the older books and comics, and also watching the prequels and TCW, is the two different eras of the Sith that seem to come into play. TOTJ mainly deals with the Sith War that Lucas also mentioned happening early on in the history of the Sith. It’s the civil war that led to their first destruction. But then most references to the Sith in the movies, and some from the books and comics, seem to refer to the Sith as they operated when there were only two, yet before they were thought extinct.

    There’s the discussion between Yoda and Mace at the end of TPM. But then in the RotS novelization, we have this line, I think from Mace Windu:

    “The Sith Lord, if one exists, will reveal himself in time. They always do.”​

    That, like the line of there being always two Sith, makes it sound like the Jedi primarily fought against the Sith after their reformation, not before. And so it would mean they went extinct not once, but twice.

    This also resonated with another quote from TOTJ, though one that’s not in reference to the Sith specifically but to dark-siders in general. During the Jedi gathering at Deneba, old Master Shayoto says:

    “Does anybody remember the Vultar Cataclysm? Or the Gank Massacres? I do! . . . My master’s master told me about the Hundred-Year Darkness . . . and the Great Hyperspace War. He taught me how the agents of the dark side do their evil works. The dark siders act in complete secrecy, until the leaders of society have fallen to their evil seductions. Then they strike with great suddenness, bringing down civilizations it took eons to build.”
    While we don’t know if Veitch and Anderson got this particular bit from Lucas, it does sound a lot like the kind of actions taken by the Sith of the movies. Like I said, looking at these older works is interesting both because of their original takes on the Sith and the Jedi, but also because of what they have in common with the antiquity hinted at in the movies.
     
    ColeFardreamer, AusStig and Ulicus like this.
  16. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Honestly my biggest issue with the ancient past has always been the other dozen "Sith extensions" and "Returns" before the Prequels.

    Like when Kiadi Mundi is like "The Sith have been extinct for a millennium" and doesn't believe they return I'm like...How they've been gone for a few thousand years before and then com back again.

    Even in Tales with the Exar Kun stuff the Sith seem like a threat lost only come back...again.

    Sorta makes their return in the Prequels at little less...dramatic.
     
    darklordoftech and Gamiel like this.
  17. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Sith Lords are gankers confirmed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
    AusStig likes this.
  18. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Going by the Legends timeline, when Mundi and Windu didn’t believe Jinn about the Sith surviving, Yoda should have said, “Idiots, you two are. Extinct, the Sith always seem to be.”

    Naga Sadow: “At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.”

    “Ragnos”: “At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.”

    Vitiate: “At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.”

    Darth Maul: “At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.”

    Darth Krayt: “At last we will reveal ourselves the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.”
     
    Sinrebirth and QuinlanSolo like this.
  19. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    I like the Egyptian aesthetic for the Sith, personally.

    The difference between Jedi and Sith holocrons is important to me in this. The Jedi holocron being, mostly, cubic resonates with the Kaaba in Mecca for me. While the Sith holocron being pyramidal resonating with ancient Egyptian pyramids and pharaohs is then extra symbolic.

    The main prophetic story featured in the Quran is the story of Moses. Pharaoh is the sort of archvillain of sacred history. Likewise, in the Quran, Mecca is said to be the original place of worship for humanity, the first temple/mosque, and the Kaaba is the focal point that was built by Abraham and Ishmael. It's a cube.

    Pharaoh represents the out of control ego, one that elevates the lower self to such a height as to diefy one's own desires and whims. Abraham represents God-consciousness and the surrender of the lower self.

    IG: @jedisufism
     
  20. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013

    In that regard I may add, that the pyramid structure also has many more meanings that one should include, especially the downward facing pyramid or triangle! If taking into account as per AOTC prop that Sith Holocrons have letters inverted, upside down and backwards (I love that detail!) the Sith Holocron facing up or downward may actually be important and not only is their writing on them an inversion of regular holocrons and writing but something twisted.

    Adding India's mythology one may even have up and downward facing pyramids as male and female reprensentations as in many cultures. Jedi would then be the male, Sith the female principle (while the opposite mythology-wise would make more sense, this could be another hint that the universe actually is kinda "upside down" to our real world so to speak). Yin and Yang is similiar but in another shape, more cyclic as in Taoism and on Mortis.

    I liked Legends Legacy Era Jedi Temple on Ossus by Kol, that had both, upward and downward facing ziggurat pyramids meeting in the middle of with their tips. It kinda is an inversion of the MORTIS monoloths pyramids connected by their bases, which may be symbolic too to both paralell and yet invert the Mortis principle. The Mortis pyramids both culminated in tips opposite and away from each other, like Jedi and Sith separated out of the same source into opposites. Yet this new Jedi Temple unites both bases in the middle where there tips meet in harmony.

    Either way, Mortis base to base or Legacy tip to tip are close but not exact representations of the upward and downward facing triangles/pyramids actually interlocking and overlapping as in the "Star of David" or also the Sri Yantra symbol or its 3D representation the Metatron's cube or also the Merkaba symbol and 3D animated version of the MER KA BA that rotates in itself as each pyramid has a different rotation direction.

    Make of that what you will, but if comparing to religion, spirituality and esoterics, there is a lot you can pull from. This does not tie one or the other to good or bad sides though or elevate any above others as better or culmination. After all, as Mortis symbols for light and darkness showed, each has the other in its core and is a part of everything and what is currently dominating is important, yet also know that everything is cyclic and not static, so dominance is always only temporary.
     
    Dawud786 likes this.
  21. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    The Pharaoh being an archetypical villain was something in the west as well. They were the go-to for villain before those german fellows.

    So it wold make a weird kind of meta sense to have the Sith take after them.
     
  22. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I mean look at Yu-Gi-Oh....all the weird dark magic stuff comes from....ANCIENT EGYPT!!!!!!

    @Sauron_18

    You know something about TOTJ continuity I find interesting is that Exar Kun and Ulic being Sith assimilate more into ideas of Vader only being a Sith and Palpatine being a Master of the Dark Side, before the PT came along and sorta reversed that.

    What I mean is...and this always gets my head spinning a bit so ill try to explain.

    When I think of Sith, I think of Palpatine, Plagueis....Guys in hoods doing stuff in the shadows and being all evil sorcerers

    Vader, Dooku, Maul (Pretty much ALL of Palpatine apprentices really) never feel like REAL Sith to me they all just come off as Dark Jedi.

    And maybe in some ways Exar and Ulic are supposed to give more that Jedi who turned Evil vibe who call themselves Sith.

    But Idk...ugh...it's one of those things that is kinda confusing to explain but like...Palpatine is sorta what i think of when I think of true Sith and Vader...again...Jedi who is just dark side.
     
    ColeFardreamer likes this.
  23. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010

    Also atlantis, or do we not talk about season 4.

    Exar and Ulic being fallen Jedi and warlords have more in common with Vader than Palpatine.
     
  24. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    oh yeah...forgot about that season

    and that’s what I was getting at with Exar Vader and Ulic
     
  25. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    @Jid123Sheeve

    That was definitely a thing for a little while, and I feel like it’s part of what the movie sequels seemed to be doing at first, with the Dark Side Master being more of a “magician” who corrupted Jedi Knights and turned them into something more powerful than they were, yet still under their thrall. In a sense, that role was similar to that of the Sith Eternal cultists, someone who could keep the dark tradition alive but who was not its ultimate manifestation.

    As the idea of the Sith in the EU evolved, it eventually became a kind of contest of legitimacy as characters were redefined as either true Sith or Dark Jedi or something else. It did get a little confusing, though, and more than slightly arbitrary. A good example of this was KOTOR 2, which essentially teased the idea that none of the Sith Lords ever seen onscreen had been True Sith.

    In a sense, it is an out-of-universe example of the power that an undefined and mysterious word can have. The meaning given to it by authors changed over time, always adapting to what Lucas did with them in the movies and TCW. But I do think it got to a point where we were overloaded with new Sith who in one way or another would question the legitimacy of the groups we’d seen before.

    In that sense, it was somewhat refreshing when the Sith got a reset with the new canon, which of course is better informed than the EU was on what Lucas had been planning. The Sith are now more clearly simply a dark mirror of the Jedi Order. They still have a specific tradition, their own language, and a cultural background that evolved over time. But they are much closer to Dark Jedi than where the EU eventually took the Sith.

    Though even the EU in its early stages did not have the Sith stray far from the Jedi. At least, not the Lords of the Sith. I think it’s in the Jedi Academy trilogy that a fallen character (Kyp) suggests that if only the Jedi had used the knowledge of the ancient Sith to become stronger, they would not have been killed so easily by Vader and the Emperor. In a way it suggested that someone could be both Jedi and Sith, with Sith knowledge being itself more a teaching of the dark side rather than a separate cult, and with Jedi being the strongest beings who could wield that knowledge, becoming Lords of the Sith.

    This doesn’t necessarily stray too far in essence from what Lucas did or from what we got in different forms during the EU era. But I agree that the feel of it changed a lot with each new iteration we got. But having them once again be closer to the Jedi does seem more cohesive and works better with the stories in the movies.
     
    ColeFardreamer likes this.