Comics Tales of the Jedi

I remember reading many years ago in Wikipedia that the original plan for Lucas' sequels before ROTJ came out was to introduce Luke's sister ("there is another"), who wouldn't have been Leia, and dealing with Palpatine now that Vader is dead after redeeming himself, i do wonder if Lucas originally envisioned it as in Vader dies but Palpatine doesn't, or, like in Dark Empire and Rise of Skywalker, Palpatine dies but he resurrects, becoming the main antagonis of the new trilogy, if it was the latter then maybe that's probably why he suggested Veitch to revive Palpatine instead of making the Vader impostor storyline, these ideas were then cancelled once he decided to end it in Episode VI, according to the Wikipedia article i read, but i can't find a proper source talking about this.

I thought Kira Solo wasn't aware of her heritage at first and thus no relationship with Kylo Ren at first, unlike Cay and Ulic.

Quite true, the people that won't forgive the repenting character are what makes it the most interesting, this is also why i like Leia's arc on forgiving Anakin in post-ROTJ, but the main issue with that was that Anakin was already dead and one with the Force, arguably a much peaceful end than staying alive but with no connection to the Force, wandering around the Galaxy like a nomad, Ulic had to actually live with the consequences of his actions, while Anakin could just feel sorry for them in the netherworld, which isn't as impactful (even though i think it is executed well enough on Anakin's case, it's just that Ulic's was better), the fact that the Vader persona was sort of "separated" from Anakin in many people's minds is also another thing Ulic doesn't have, he's simply Ulic Qel-Droma, the one and only, instantly recognizable, and guilty, kind of like Kyp Durron later on (yet in a larger scale, Kyp did much worse than Ulic, even though he was partially possessed).

They try to do something like this with Arcann in the SWTOR story, but it honestly never felt as potent, just a random NPC saying that he doesn't deserve to stand by the Outlander's side as a friend because he killed an entire planet's worth of people, which is a good point of view, but it never goes anywhere, it doesn't weight on Arcann directly, he regrets the blood in his hands, yes, but there's never an actual narrative tension put on him because of it, he just sorta stands there helping the Outlander, it also doesn't help that his redemption didin't feel earned at all because it involves the Voss "healing" his hate and anger via Force Magic, which is extremely cheap, that's not how you do a redemption arc, Ulic also got some Force Magic stuff done to him in his redemption arc, but it was a punishment casted upon him, for the acts that he was already regretting (the death of his brother Cay and joining Exar), it wasn't a technique to literally turn him good.

 

Interesting that you bring up posession as many complained Ulic got posessed or rather darksided via Sith poison, too. Unlike Exar Kun smashing a Holocron to unleash spirits into the present Jedi to take them over.

While in hindsight mostly forgotten or ignored I think these two scenes are pivotal and have a lot of potential.
Ulics Holocron spirits posessing Jedi could easily have been some ancient Sith returning to a new body, hence why the ancient Sith chose him and Ulic in the first place, to bring THEMSELVES back by fooling them to unleash them from their Holocron prison perhaps. But ultimately it was, as used, nothing more than "instant turn/fall" powder kinda that got him some cheap followers.

The Sith poison Ulic got is more tricky as it is at first sight nothing related to ancient Sith, merely poison weakening his resolve and like drugs, making him susceptible to manipulation and dark deeds perhaps without absolving him of his crimes. But what if some ancient spirit tied his lingering presence to that poison instead of another object? Could this make someone a Sith by bloodtransfer or rather poison injection? Two souls within one fighting for control, the Sith and the original, Ulic?
This might tie back to the idea (as also ROTS hinted at with Palpatine name-searching the Dark Side) that Sith, upon accepting a Darth name, become the host of some evil entity that takes them over by previously luring them into its trap by promising to make them stronger (instead of the truth to take them over). Then again, how does this make redemption possible as in movies with Anakin? With Anakin still being trapped somewhere deep within Vader, they maybe have to call him forth somehow to take back control as he did in ROTJ.

Interesting alternate takes of how Sith, falling and redemptions could have worked.

Kyp Durrons posession shows he still was Kyp, despite posession he did Kyp things and acted as Kyp, like a merger between himself and the posessive spirit, not a full takeover. Even if Luke lied to the NR to forgive him and absolve him due to posession while knowing quite well it was not all the evil spirit.

 

What Veitch and KJA did was go with the idea that the dark side is primarily coercive and fears agency. Thus it seeks to compromise and diminish it as much as possible, hence possession and poison.

They run with what Vader meant by the line that he must obey his master.

 

What's also interesting about the idea of possession is that this is still true in some sense based on the movies, only it's not as clear cut as the sort of possession we are used to seeing in media. But instead of Sith spirits possessing the fallen Jedi, it's the dark side itself that essentially takes over the Jedi's will.

Here are some insightful quotes from a story conference Lucas had early in the development of Empire:

"Ben will explain to Luke that he will gather all these powers, but he can't use them for evil or he will succumb to the dark side of the Force. If you use it for evil, it will start using you. It is a force for good, but the more you become addicted to it, the more it controls you and the side that controls you is the bad side. The side that you can control is the good side. The good side is a passive side and the bad side is an aggressive side. Two sides to the Force: One is aggressive, one is passive in relationship to things. (In one of his notes, Lucas wrote, 'The mood of a warrior calls at once for control and abandon; the Force commands you and obeys you--unity of opposites.')"

[. . .]

"Vader started getting fascinated with the dark side of the Force and was lured into it. He didn't tell anybody as he became an evil person. The evil Force was starting to take over the galaxy--it was in control of the Emperor. . . . Vader is completely consumed by the evil side of the Force. He is an instrument of the Force rather than having his own free will in terms of what he does. He really is driven by the Force. When we kill him off in the next one, we'll reveal what he really is. He wants to be human--he's still fighting in his own way the dark side of the Force. He doesn't want to be a bad man, but he is. He can't resist it. He's struggling somehow to get out of what he is, struggling with his humanity."
​

And I think all of this ties really well to the notion in Jedi of not underestimating the power of the dark side, the sense that Vader was in some ways a slave to both the Emperor and to that Force to which the Emperor himself was hopelessly enslaved.

And the comparison to addiction or infection is something that also made it to the prequels. Unfortunately I don't have my copy of The Making of Revenge of the Sith to provide direct quotes or to verify, but there's a good article on "The Secret History of Star Wars" that discusses how Anakin's turn was originally conceptualized and shot during the development of the prequels. Here is the most relevant quote:

"The turn, as originally written and filmed, played out in a drastically different manner than what is seen in the final film. But first, we should first examine the nature of Anakin's turn itself, hinted at earlier.The original conception of Anakin's turn was that the dark side was slowly turning and corrupting his mind, like some kind of drug or virus. Anakin's massacre of the Tusken Raiders was initially a pivotal point (in many other ways as well, as we will see later) because it gave him his first taste of this awesome power, and slowly but surely he would be drawn back to it. Thus, when Anakin struck down Mace (or Dooku, in the original conception), it was the consummation of a journey that began in Episode II. This is why the Emperor was sure Luke would fall in Return of the Jedi if he killed Vader out of hate--once you had tasted its power, it would be so irresistible that you would inevitably be drawn back to it, and slowly it would consume you, twisting your mind. 'If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi Wan's apprentice,' Yoda intones in Empire Strikes Back. The Emperor had been so consumed in mind that it had even corrupted his flesh. But just as this aspect would be revised so too would the psychological aspect--but it would occur after the movie had been filmed. As Lucas has also said, most bad people act on good faith, and here Anakin truly believed in the actions he was taking, that they were ultimately for a greater good, another aspect to be altered in the final cut."
​

Once again, the notion of the corrupting influence of the power of the dark side was highlighted, though it ended up being less clear in the final cut of Revenge. But I think the notion is still that the Sith are so dependent on the dark side that they are slaves to it, even if they can't tell. So that when we see Palpatine in the movies, we are really seeing what is essentially an embodiment of the dark side. He is so fully shaped by it, and has been for so long, that he is more of a gateway to the evil side of the Force. And in time, that is the fate of all Sith.

 

This is the ended I wanted for Jacen in lotf. But alas.

 

This is highly interesting, but also confusing. Because if the Dark Side takes away agency and enslaves the Sith (not Darksiders, just the Sith level of them?) then Anakin may be responsible for becoming a bad man, but after that when a slave to the Dark Side, he is not responsible for the Dark Sides crimes through him?
Jedi are all about letting go of ego and their own will imposed on the Force, not using it as a tool, but letting it guide them. Yet here the Dark Side guides the Sith who can't excercise their ego and will over it anymore? With in contrast the Jedi using the Force as a tool instead of letting it consume/control them like it does the Sith?

I think, this concept got twisted and implemented in some Legends EU contrary to its intended dichotomy. Who now is guided by the Force and who is using it with free will? Sith or Jedi?

This, to me at least, sounds like another case of "Only Sith deal in absolutes" which in itself is an absolute, told by a Jedi who deals in absolutes but is no Sith. Or in other words: Sith fear the Force controling them and letting it guide them, as Jedi do, so they want to have free will and use it like a tool, but in the process of becoming Sith the Dark Side of the Force ignores their free will and uses them as they intended to use it. Meanwhile the Jedi, offering themselves to the Force freely, are respected by the Force and it takes their free will into account always and even if guiding them, does not guide them against it.

This kinda is like Harry Potter's Sorting Hat that takes into account what the student wants before making its choice. Or like the Dagobah Force Cave, that shows the one entering that he "gets only what he takes with him", the Force thus is like a giant mirror reflecting back at people what they show it. (Fits the Kyber Mirror, Mirror Cave, Visions mirroring what is whithin those seeing them, etc. themes)
If the Jedi allow the Force its free will, it will grant them their own. If the Sith deny it to the Force wielding it as a tool, it denies them their free will and drives them like a body with a soul trapped within watching.

I think that is what George Lucas meant here as it fits his esoteric library and influences that he implements in many ways in his works. It also fits his other messages. Luke throws the saber away chosing not to fight and the Force grants him victory and an end of the cycle of war. The Emperor lightnings everybody and that is what he gets back in return.

This could be debated really really deep, not just about the aforementioned agency and culpability issue but also how exactly Vader is trapped within the construct of Vader and the Sith he became. Is he riding like a passenger watching what his body does? Is he still active and himself but trapped in the lies, sins and all he himself built up so that he has to perpetuate them in order to go on and survive, unable to right them and unable or unwilling to die and face the judgement of the Force and the Dead.

The Dark Side offers them a quick and easy path to power, but once they have it they need to defend it, or fall down hard if they refuse to use the Dark Side and try to keep it regardless. It is a spiral of revenge, war, everything coming back to you, the more you use dark tricks to get what you want, the more you need to defend yourself to keep it or not loose everything you built again. It's an arms race truly and the more and more of the Dark Force you require, the more it consumes you and eats away from your very essence as you are trapped in cycles and automatisms to accumulate more power, to fight and end your enemies that all vie for your illegitimate gains to the point you loose sight of why you in the first place wanted them, out of good intentions maybe. Also trapped in these destructive cycles towards selfdestruction or exhaustion, you have no more time to enjoy your gains, you just fight, you just kill, destroy or hide and fear.

I think what we need to see more is, not how this destructive cycle destroys those that once chose the dark, but how to break free of it. Even Vader who broke free very late, died for abandining the Dark Side as it was literally the only thing that held him back together and alive. Even if not dying of injuries he'd be tried and imprisoned or executed, so the Force having him die with his son seen through his own eyes rather grante him mercy compared to the peoples justice.
Ulic got his own kind of mercy as he could add a few years more in solitude and leave a legacy thx to Vima Sunrider before the People caught up with his whereabouts.

I do wonder, if they ever continue Barriss Offees story, could she show a return to the light without death or exile somehow?

 

I need to go back and read this series. I haven't since 2018, simply due to being busy and all. But it makes ya think. Conquest and greed are not useful nor healing, whereas courage and resistance are.

 

I never wanted Jacen to fall. The Dark Nest and Legacy of the Force books are so tragic for me. Such a waste of a great Jedi Knight. All that potential and power, squandered in a short-lived, ultimately futile quest for dominion.

 

It is coming out in the epic legends collections. So good timing!

Well I did say "in LotF". It was a waste, but they wanted it, can't tell people to great the universe with love, after all.

 

Jacen was cool as a morally complex Jedi. As Caedus, he was a regression. Some would say that's the point, but I think that a morally complex Sith would be more interesting. That's just my take. I'd prefer him not fall, either, but as one fellow once wisely put on this website, they made him act like he was on some meth or something. Just way too much. He lost his ability to become one with the Force, like, the total Oneness he deployed against Onimi, if memory serves. The dark side can be powerfully destructive, but in the end, that's a limitation and a regression on potentiality in general. Many figures (including Revan as a Sith) have tried to use the dark side to save the galaxy, but all they accomplished was a Shakespearean fall or two.

 

Jacen's "fall" wasnt just a regression, it was widely out of character and non sensical.

It was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Darth Caedus is a fundamentally stupid concept.

Jacen had an entire 19 book character arc and it led him as far as possible away from the Darkside. It literally required Denning to straight up retcon Vengere's own teaching and have Jacen actively misremember them in Dark Nest.

Caedus is called JINO for a reason. Jacen going Dark makes as much since as if they tried to give Sidious a redemption arc. Just completely missing the point of the character

 

Jacen could have gone dark in a more convincing way, but they just didn't do that and actively changed Vergere and even what Luke was talking about in The Unifying Force to make it work.

 

In the light of TOTJ and its prequels Golden Age etc. I think there is a nice chronology regarding the etymology of some character names that is important and was way more thought through than meets the eye.

If you know my posts, you know that SW History paralells real world history, that not just visually Golden Age's egyptian motifs and TOTJs medieval motives are intential paralells to real world themes and dates. They did not choose 5000 or 4000 BBY randomly. Though more recently one can argue that medieval fits more the Knight Errant era and the NSW rather than TOTJ, originally TOTJ was the medieval era before more and more got shoved in between it and the movie era.

In that regard, Golden Age, TOTJ and SW history in general got shaped like Lucas vision, a modern mythology paralelling that of Earth and not completely fictional and invented but deliberately paralelled. Tolkien's ages correspond to a world changing from Myth and mythological creatures and beings slowly vanishing towards the Age of Men. Likewise, Star Wars follows a similiar trend, from ancient alien gods like the Rakata and Celestials, to pharaonic times in Sith Egypt and later crusades and Sith Wars in TOTJ till the modern movie era.

This also is apparent in the naming:

DARAGON
Even a blind one can see that it is derived from Dragon as mythological times liked to invoke Dragons in logos and royalty that ruled by their strength, in their image and the like. Daragon means nothing other than PENDRAGON from Arthurian myth.

SUNRIDER
Sungod worship was common and not only did Pharao's and other cultures rever sungods but even later royals were Sun Emperors and loved to be portrayed likewise or crowned with a radiating sun-like crown.

SKYWALKER
Even without mythical beasts or the Sun, some merely loved to walk the sky in the godly charriot which pulls the celestials, aka Sun, Moon, etc. across the sky. And modern times ability to fly to the sky and in space is likewise invoked as well as the magical Jedi abilities to do the impossible like walk in the sky, where others walked over water in earlier times. Even fitting that a Skywalker was a Son of the Suns, with the Suns coming before him, the Sunriders. Or did a Skywalker marry a Sunrider aka Shmi's parents? Maybe too literal for some.

I do wonder what names are missing in between this genealogy of special bloodlines with equal meanings, like Darklighters maybe, Luciferian yet not evil, heroes with also some black sheep and dark fates maybe in their history. Maybe during the NSW?

Also with the Disney ST using medieval themes in the future of SW as well as likewise medieval influences in other potential futures, be that Lucas abandoned TFU ideas like an arthurian round table between Forceusers/Jedi/Sith or other concepts like Ronin with asian medieval influences, the Legacy comics of Legends as well, medieval futures are a thing for SW, like in The Star Wars. Maybe Lucas ST concept around Nellith Skywalker would have fit that bill too and tied it back to the ancient concepts TOTJ introduced as well.

PS: I wish modern SW would be more thoughtful with naming characters and create likewise impactful meaningful names like these above and not random gibberish names and tuckerisations.

 

Tales of the Jedi Redemption is Underrated

 

The opening crawls of the TOTJ comics that Veitch wrote without KJA talk about “the” Jedi Holocron. Does this mean that Veitch meant for what we now know as the Tedryn Holocron to be the one and only Jedi Holocron to ever exist?

 

Perhaps but it's also rated as to be good enough to be part if a new Marvel TOTJ Omnibus due end of the year.

 

The Dark Empire endnotes also use the definite article, it seems like that was the intention to me.

 

Those collections collect all comics. If they are related even slightly. The Clone Wars collection put son of dathomir in the middle or a Republic Comics run.

 

Yeah, the Legends Omnibi are just fancier Epic Collections, I wouldn't take that as a seal of quality - some of them have had some pretty weak material. I do think I've seen Redemption on too many people's "best of the EU" lists for it to be that underrated, though.

 

That is good. I don't hear much about it at all.

 

These days, I think the whole TOTJ era is a bit forgotten (I liked KOTOR 1 and 2 but always kind of resented them for overshadowing the Dark Horse stuff and kind of burying the aesthetic of those comics). I do remember that for alot of people though at the time, Redemption was considered the best of those stories. I think even those put off by KJA's really comicy (maybe bordering on cartoony?) type storylines thought it, well, redeemed his writing.

 

The likely reason you don't hear much about TotJ Redemption - it was done 1998!

That's.....some time ago now.

 

Older stuff gets talked about, I mean Star Wars came in 1977, that is 21 years before 1998.

 

To a degrew but it depends on access.

Marvel are very patchy on keeping trades in print. If you don't want to read digitally it could be rather pricey.

 

Did Empress Teta really live 175 years? Ood Bnar mentions her writing a book “in her 175th year”.