PT [TFA Spoilers] Criticism of Anakin vs. Kylo Ren

This thread will, by necessity, contain TFA spoilers but this is something I'd really like to discuss because common reactions to Kylo Ren have honestly left me boggled, especially given criticisms leveled at Anakin over the years.

For the life of me, I just don't understand why so many things criticized in Anakin are being praised in Kylo Ren as deep and rendering him a complicated, conflicted character.

Anakin's been derided as whiny and yet, he never threw a tantrum like a 3 year old and smashed a room. And even his complaints about Obi-Wan weren't completely one-sided and had Anakin either: A. conceding many of Obi-Wan's good qualities and admitting that it was his job as a mentor to be critical or B. happened right after Anakin's mother died.

Plus, most importantly, Anakin is 19/20 in AOTC and 22/23 in ROTS. Whereas Kylo Ren is 29 or 30 years old in TFA (according to Pablo Hidalgo and Adam Driver would have been about 31 when they were filming). And yet this is a guy who will go up to a prisoner he's interrogating and he's making petty jabs about how disappointing a father Han Solo was. TFA gives Kylo Ren no development of why he's so childish (for a 30 year old) and why he's so obsessed with Vader and hates his parents so much.

Even Leia's explanation that he has too much of Vader in him just reads as utterly superficial and rather pathetic to me (and actually made me annoyed with Leia -- did she forget that she and Luke are Vader's children and thus have much more of Vader in them as a result?).

Whereas with Anakin, we know he grew up as a slave and has control issues and fears losing the people he loves as a result. We know he spent years being told by Palpatine that he was the greatest and the strongest Jedi and also has abilities that can surpass Obi-Wan's and yet, by AOTC, has never been on a mission on his own. Is it really surprising that this kid grew up the way he did then? Whereas Kylo Ren grew up with two loving parents and Uncle Luke.

There's more but...I just don't understand why so much of what was derided in Anakin is being complimented in Kylo Ren. Especially because we have a more fully fleshed out backstory for Anakin and because Kylo Ren is also significantly older than him.

Is it because Anakin became Darth Vader whereas Kylo Ren is a wholly new character that people are more forgiving? Is it just an issue with the acting? Thoughts?

I'm not saying anyone is wrong to like Kylo Ren. But the positive reaction to the character and how often I've seen people say "This is what Anakin should have been like!" leaves me perplexed.

 

Easy. One was done by Lucas, the other wasn't. Double standards and hipocrisy against Lucas is (unfortunately) nothing new.

 

Agree. Though I think it was Han who said that there is too much Vader in him

 

Great points, Piett.

What goes unsaid by the fandom is that a lot of Anakin's complaints ("whining") were right. Obi-Wan is overly critical of him.

TPM established Obi-Wan as an inflexible thinker who's too fixated on authoritarian power structures. He falls back on platitudes that he heard from Master Yoda. He urges Qui-Gon to fall in line beneath the Council. Later he apologizes to Qui-Gon, not because he realized that Qui-Gon was right, but because it was "not [his] place" to defy his master. He didn't believe in Anakin and only trained the boy because it was Qui-Gon's dying wish.

Fast forward to AOTC. Obi-Wan clearly has a problem accepting that Anakin is the Chosen One, with far greater natural talent than he has. Obi-Wan talks a good game all the time and treats Anakin as a dumb, reckless kid, yet Obi-Wan is the one who recklessly jumped through the glass window to grab the assassin droid. That move, which resulted in a plunge toward the ground several miles below, nearly killed him. Obi-Wan would've died right there if Anakin hadn't saved him.

What happens next drives home the differences between the two. Obi-Wan criticizes Anakin throughout the chase. Despite that, Anakin is optimistic, confident, joking, and smiling - the opposite of the moody whiner that the fandom writes him off as. Anakin then takes a big plunge of his own, and unlike Obi-Wan, he is able to use the Force to control his descent and stick the landing.

Anakim does run into some trouble while fighting the assassin Zam Wessel, losing his lightsaber. Obi-Wan makes sure to criticize him over this, as if everything that happens in life-or-death combat is perfectly within your control.

Later on in the movie, Obi-Wan does the same exact thing while fighting Jango Fett: He loses his lightsaber. I believe this was very deliberate, highlighting how arrogant and hypocrital Obi-Wan is.

He's characterized as every domineering father or old man who thinks that his kid is an idiot, and that everyone was smarter and more sensible "back in the day."

Far from being hollow CGI fests, the Prequels' action scenes contain so much nuance and meaning. And that meaning is often lost on the basher segments of fandom, which have given the one-sided verdict thst Anakin is a whiny jerk. Ironically, the fandom subscribes to the same authoritarian thinking as Obi-Wan, believing him to be automaticaly correct just because he's older and more established.

Anakin had so much more backstory and justification for his negative character traits, far more than Kylo Ren has so far.

 

No that's not it. Most people wanted to like TPM and AOTC, just like they wanted to like TFA. Yet, most people seem to like the TFA characters, including Kylo Ren, but were turned off by the character that GL wrote for Anakin. A lot of it has to do with the first impression you have of a character. Kylo Ren was a powerful presence the first time he came on screen. The reason the tantrum early in the film worked, is because it was sort of terrifying, but ended on a humerous note. A character has to score points with the audience before we are shown some of his or her less likeable sides. It's like a first date. If your date starts farting the moment you meet them, they're not going to make a good impression on you, and you tend to be less forgiving from that point on. I personally felt nothing but dislike for Anakin the moment he was on screen in AOTC. The character had no charisma at all. He was a dick to Obi-Wan, creepy to Padme, and he was supposed to be one of the heroes. In short you could smell the stink the moment he stepped into the room.

 

I'd say the execution (acting/writing...) of the characters is vastly different. Anakin (AoTC) never balanced the "good man" with the petulant kid, IMHO. It was too much of what it was, so it was hard to drum up much sympathy for him. It was hard to overcome that in ROTS when he was more balanced (initially; something the Clone Wars did much better). His very real "issues" came across as excuses, not explanation.

Kylo, well, he's not the big bad. He's not supposed to be, ultimately, but he first appears as some mysterious, in charge guy. The initial tantrum comes from nowhere. Over the movie, it establishes that he's trying to become the big bad, but internal issues are holding him back - the conflict is clear, or at least, more clear than with Anakin.

Do I like Kylo more than Anakin? I don't really like either, in a way, but that may be because I prefer flawed heroes to flawed villains?

 

As I noted in another thread, Kylo Ren is very similar to Anakin in AOTC: arrogant, somewhat childish, conflicted over just how he's supposed to behave in order to satisfy his mentors, and less powerful than he believes himself to be. And I agree that it is a bit hypocritical for some (but certainly not all) fans to praise Kylo while dismissing Anakin.

The question is how this will develop in VIII and IX. Anakin grew calmer, more skilled, and more powerful. But he was still uncertain and conflicted, motivated by pride and fear, and open to being manipulated and, to be blunt, conned. Will Kylo Ren follow the same path?

 

I agree. I love Kylo Ren, but these comparisons with Anakin are not working for me. Anakin is not Kylo, was not Kylo, should never be Kylo. Like you said, they come from completely different backgrounds. They have different issues. They have different roles to play.

The funniest thing is that, for me, Kylo Ren is living in the shadow of Vader but also Anakin too. Someone described him as a poor man's Anakin, and that seems dismissive of the character (and, like I said, I do love him) but I get the sentiment. Anakin is just MORE. He's more of strength, skill, determination, bad attitude, good attitude, and impact. The whole role of Kylo is someone who is NOT Anakin/Vader. Even before Anakin turned to the dark side, Kylo Ren is not at that level. He didn't deal with years as a slave, years as a Jedi, and then years as a general. He's an amateur in comparison. Again, I'm not saying this to insult the character. He is what he's supposed to be. Him needing Han's help to kill him, seeking guidance from "grandfather," and being checked by General Hux all fits in in with this guy who is young, corrupted, partly-trained, and misguided with an inferiority complex.

In fact, that may be why Kylo is more accepted. He's not too far to the right or to the left. He's a guy teetering in the middle like some wanted Anakin to be. Some think Anakin was too much of a mess to be a hero but, as a villain, he went too far/should've been more conflicted. That's not Anakin though. He's not someone who can exist in that state for long. He's all in or he's all out. He pushes boundaries, he tries patience, and he should never, ever have been like Kylo.

 

I like Kylo Ren more because his character makes more sense.

Yeah he has tantrums. He is petulant and he's also a murderer. However, he's also already fallen to the dark side. He's being controlled almost completely by the dark side. He may have had a glimmer of light in him, but he vanquished it when he murdered his father. Anakin was able to go on megalomaniacal rants and was able to murder women and children and then was able to hook up with the most beautiful woman in the galaxy. Kylo Ren did not get to live a life where he could whine to a woman about his murderous tendencies and his very correct master and then get to marry her. Also, bottom line, he doesn't whine at all. He also doesn't ruin a character that's already been established in the canon.

Adam Driver is also a decent actor who was given solid dialog. Neither of those things can be said for Hayden Christensen.

Also, this whole thing about "double standards" is completely ludicrous. Liking a movie that other people don't is fine, but you don't get say that other people don't have valid reasons to dislike said movie.


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Actually, I've seen a lot of complaints about Kylo being too "emo" or too overpowered or too underpowered...

 

Kilo Ren is really well acted and has a really unsettling presence. Anakin is horribly acted.

 

The women and children that Anakin murdered were Sand People, who were literally not human. The way they interact with the general population of Tatooine, they're virtually monsters. Didn't Cliegg Lars basically say something along the lines of "They may walk like men, but they aren't human"?

This is not to excuse Anakin's massacre, but it explains it and somewhat "justifies" it in the character's heads. In real life, functioning Americans actually suggest violent and extreme things such as killing all Muslims without regard for civilian casualties (my own coworker has said as much during lunch). It's not unheard of for people to dehumanize and even demonize people labeled as the "enemy."

Anakin's "megalomaniacal" rant was more of a contrite confession, and angry griping about Obi-Wan holding him back. He was clearly not proud of his actions, nor was he talking about doing more of the same. I can see Padme sympathizing with him given the fact that he had just lost his mother.

Kylo Ren, BTW, did not have to "whine" because nobody stood in his way. The First Order was a very permissive environment where he answered to no one other than Snoke's hologram (and all Snoke did was encourage him). Kylo's childish outbursts and tantrums were an explicit part of his portrayal. He's a manchild who gets his way.

 

All I'm going to say


Anakin Skywalker>>>Jacen Solo>>>>>>>>> Ben Solo

Darth Vader>>>> Darth Caedus>>>>Kylo Ren

 

I think we need to give Episodes VIII and IX a chance to flesh him out more. What you describe of Anakin is knowledge taken from the entire PT. Right now, Ben is at the emotional part Anakin was at in AOTC, just slightly darker. I don't believe he's around ROTS Anakin's development yet

Personally, I very much like him. Anakin is my favourite character and I think they've done a good job of making his grandson similar but unique enough to stand out on his own

Although yes, for sure, you're right about double standards. Anakin whines about being held back and not feeling good enough and people call it poor characterization. Ben whines about not having enough power and people praise the depth and complexity of it. Go figure

 

Seagoat

I understand that and I agree that Kylo Ren will likely be further developed. I suppose my befuddlement is more that people seem willing to cut 30 year old Kylo Ren so much slack but not 19/20 year old Anakin in AOTC or in ROTS (where he's still only 23 at most in comparison).

Agreed, Kylo Ren has already fallen to the Dark Side. However, Anakin is a protagonist journey to villain. Anakin also showed contrition when he confessed to killing the Tuskens and Padmé marrying him clearly led to her death and disaster. Additionally, given that Anakin had saved her homeworld, her very life, was serving the Republic, and had just lost his mother, that she felt some measure of empathy for him is not incomprehensible. After all, Han and Leia still believe in their son even after he's ordered a village slaughtered for no reason and shows not a shred of remorse.

Though I will, of course, agree that if someone prefers Driver's acting and dialog, they will prefer the character.

I'm not sure where you think I said that people don't have valid reasons to dislike a movie, though. I even asked in my opening post if people thought it was issues with the acting, which was one of the points you yourself brought up.

 

I guess Star Wars fans hate remembering there angst adolescent days. When they are 30, it's okay I assume to complain about trivial ****? This Fandom has some characters that can make a cantina scared.

 

Anakin is a character people had been imagining for years and years and years. Needless to say that there was a lot of hype surrounding his portrayal. The scrutiny is going to be turned up to 11. Kylo is a nobody. People are going to be kinder to a nobody in this instance.

 

But he's not a nobody. He's a Skywalker by blood. And also already on the dark side. Who's exactly holding him back?

 

Simple, one can act the other cannot

 

I just don't understand why so many things criticized in Anakin are being praised in Kylo Ren as deep and rendering him a complicated, conflicted character.
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because it was simply done better IMO.

 

Kylo wasn't hyped for years on end. That's what I mean.

 

I apologize if that part seemed to be directed towards you, as it was not. It was more directed to part of the conversation in this thread that asserts that the only reason people like Kylo Ren and dislike prequel Anakin is due to due to Lucas' involvement in one and not the other.


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yeah his Professor Snape impression was spot on! I hope for the next movie he can actually pull off a real Vader cosplay.