Games The 26th Jedi Draft - Congratulations to our victor, KenKenobi!

So, off the top of my head, Koth died originally on Geonosis, got reborn to be captured/tortured by Grievous and then was reborn again to flee the Temple massacre and get hunted down and killed by Vader.In so doing, Agen Kolar's existence was essentially erased. Prior to that, his appearances were kicking a droid on Geonosis and ending up in the survivor circle, being part of Mace's republic strike team, fighting Quinlan Vos, and getting stabbed first by Palpatine. Did I miss anything for Agen?

And then, let's talk about Maris. She trained under Shaak Ti whom Starkiller killed and then she decided to fight Starkiller who defeated her because she was so emotionally unbalanced and headed toward the dark side as the red sabers and the eye shadow gave away. She was spared by Starkiller and then disappeared.

So when you talk about their big named opponents, ok sure. But they have a record of getting their rear ends handed to them. Not a record of wins.

Meanwhile, my two Imperial Knights are some of the elite guard that serve under Draco and Fel. Treis trained with Fel for that matter. Where your guys literally have been killed in seconds by sith, mine entered service knowing they would have to fight and die to protect their emperor up to and including killing the emperor to prevent him turning to the dark side. So, a bit of a difference right there when it comes to the type of experience. Your Koth/Kolar combo were peace time jedi who ended up in war and managed to survive it mostly thanks to canon correction (Eeth Koth ends up just shy of tying Shaak Ti's record of deaths I think). And Maris, I mean what is there really to say other then that she is a terrible option for this trump. She's a Zabrak though so you put her with the other two Zabrak I guess? But in terms of her brush with the dark side, who do you think is better able to outmaneuver and defeat her? My money is on Sigel and Treis.

Let's also not forget my guys come with their own lightsaber disrupting armor. Cortosis arm guards. And again, you have peace time jedi. My Imperial Knights trained in the offensive force not on peace. They are warriors and elite guardsmen. That may limit them against some of the higher ups. But against jedi that are roughly closer to canon fodder than actual characters, it makes them uniquely suited to take out a character like Koth and Kolar and yes, Maris too. It's why they survived Legacy and Legacy: War.

So yeah, my team has fought and won against many sith. And they are a Master/Apprentice combo to boot so they actually know each other. Your trump is a combination of a guy and the guy who was supposed to replace him and then another random Zabrak who, to the best of my knowledge, never even met either of them. And with no prep to figure it out, not sure what that gets them.


Now, as to Shaak Ti. Pretty sure she is the record holder for most deaths. And listen, I like Jedi Masters who aren't captured. And say what you want about Hoth, but at least he went to his death trying to stop Kaan and his plan. And Farfalla and his team were doing well against Bane and Zannah (better than Mace's team against Palpatine for sure) before that tide turned. And again, much more powerful sith compared to what Shaak Ti faced. Honestly, surprised you didn't trump Maris with Shaak Ti.

Similar argument here. Shaak Ti was a peace time jedi turned general and honestly, it showed. It resulted in a few close calls not to mention her loss to Grievous and later death by Starkiller. Meanwhile, Hoth and Farfalla also fought an army of sith and did so when the Jedi Council was reluctant to act. It's easy to look at Shaak Ti and say her exploits mean she should win. I disagree though. Farfalla complements Hoth's weaknesses and vice versa. The lack of prep hurts Shaak Ti more than these two and their skills are on par with Shaak Ti. Without prep or a location advantage, I don't see why she should be able to take on both of them and win. There is literally no example of Shaak Ti winning against multiple dark jedi, sith or anything really. Even the Magna Guards manage to keep her on her toes and they only back off once Grievous gets Palpatine. And then Grievous easily defeats Shaak Ti.

There is a reason PT jedi don't always draw well in this draft. And that is because they tend to have a larger history of verifiable losses. In Shaak Ti's case, I'm actually struggling to think of when she got a win. At least with Hoth we know from his career that he had wins against the sith. And we know Farfalla managed to hold his own better against Zannah and Bane with his team then Shaak Ti did against Grievous when she was with Ki-Adi, Aayla, Shaggy, K'Kruhk and the knock off Ki-Adi. And that was against just one opponent. Two on one? I don't see what in Shaak Ti's resume proves she can do it. Not in Jedi: Shaak Ti, not in either Clone Wars and not in The Force Unleashed which would arguably be her peak and there she got outwitted by Starkiller. And at least with that last one, she had prep and the location as an advantage. Here, she has neither.

Lastly, Kanan and Ezra with prep. That's good. Because they will need that against Ulic. In a common theme for these jedi, they are actually terrible when it comes to actual battle. Kanan and Ezra do great with stormtroopers. But against an actual duelist, they are outmatched. I want to remind you that Ulic fought a dark jedi with his saber without the force. The Master and Apprentice team is good and the prep helps for location and knowledge of Ulic. The problem is the skill isn't there. Kanan was defeated by multiple dark jedi and sith and Ezra didn't fair much better. Ulic is powerful in the force (closer to Anakin's level) and we saw how these two handle opponents with that kind of power- they run. Every time. And as Ken so meticulously pointed out, prep doesn't always guarantee a win. Whereas I just argued Shaak Ti doesn't have it in her skillset to handle duel opponents, Ulic actually does. The most obvious being his stalemated duel with Exar Kun.

I like Kanan and Ezra as a team, and the prep is a nice touch. But again,they don't have a great track record against a serious duelist. Ulic was also briefy a powerful sith lord so... yeah. Not sure I agree that prep helps two people who just don't show the skill to survive a duel against a powerful force user. Everything that happens with Rebels is luck and chance that keeps them alive (until it doesn't in Kanan's case and kind of in Ezra's with the final jump).





Also,

Darth Krayt vs. Roan Fel is an awesome match up.

 

A lot changes when you write things different.

*Overpowered Grievous forcing him to call his MagnaGuards in to gain the victory.

*Survived Order 66. Went one on one against Vader, but only died when he turned his back to look at his captured child.

What I get from that isn't that he's useless. It's that he's a survivor, and has some legit great dueling feats.


Let's look at his encounter with Grievous. There's a lot we can take away from this:
- Skilled with a saber. Able to counter every strike that a four-armed Grievous throws at him. Also easily able to take on multiple opponents at once.
- Strong with the Force. Force pushes Grievous back into a window mid duel, shattering it. This gains him the upperhand.
- Physically strong. Able to hold off Grievous, while being shocked in the back by his MagnaGuards.
- High pain tolerance. See above. Plus he'd been shot in the arm at the start of this encounter.

If we look at his duel against Vader, he manages to counter and block every blow that Vader throws at him. At one point, Koth is so quick that his lightsaber nips Vader's helmet. A milisecond quicker and that would've been it for the Sith Lord. What makes this duel even more impressive, is the fact that we've seen Vader cut down other Jedi in seconds without even trying, but he actually does have to try here.

Spoiler: Eeth Koth vs. Darth Vader

*Humiliating Quinlan Vos.
Kolar managed to unarm him in mere seconds. He dodged his strike, then kicked him in the face, and struck the saber from his hand. That's literally all it took. Then when Vos threatened him again, Kolar sliced his shoulder stating that he could've taken his arm off if he wanted. Again, mere seconds and he was down. Vos was completely outmatched here, and I find that super impressive considering highly regarded he was. Not only did this quick duel show that Kolar does not mess around, but it also showed how Kolar is able to mix saber and unarmed combat together in a fight. You said the Imperial Knights have armour that's effective against sabers? Well lucky Kolar doesn't need one then.

Spoiler: Agen Kolar vs. Quinlan Vos

*They have a record of putting up fights against impressive opponents.
Win or not, it's still great experience. If you put 90% of the characters in his draft against Vader or Starkiller, they wouldn't win, so I don't see a loss against them as a reason to say they suck. I still don't see any opponents the Knights have taken on that are even close to the level of Vader, Starkiller, Grievous, and Vos.

*Koth's duel with Vader lasted minutes, but he wasn't killed in the duel. Brood's duel with Starkiller lasted minutes as well. I'll give you Kolar, but that was against Sidious, so....

They wouldn't need Brood in the fight to win, but she does have one very handy trick up her sleeve - Force cloak. She can literally turn invisible, and use surprise attacks whenever she wants. If the Knights are busy engaged in a duel with Kolar and Koth, how will they have time to react to Brood jumping out at them from behind?

 

Neither actually.

That whole clash was part of when Quin was first being sent as a double-agent against Dooks, and they needed the Seps to believe he'd really crossed the Jedi.

So to make it look real, the Council didn't let Agen in on the plan and sent him to arrest Quin-- and it was part of Quin's mandate that he never put up an actual fight...



So I'd avoid leaning on that particular example (and, super-selfishly to the judges, would note it's nowhere near when Mighty Quin peaks either lol).

Anyway sorry carry on viva la draft!

 

Dammit. I’ve never read that particular comic, so didn’t know that.

 

I will get arguments up for that amazing match, but it might not be until Monday or Tuesday.

 

lmao all good, just jumping in on my dude (and maybe missing judging a bit lol)

Republic is largely an Ostrander/Duursema production so you can't go wrong if you ever go back and read it.

Hope everyone has a dope Fourth!

 

That's not true. Shaak Ti had him outmatched and outclassed the whole time. At this point, Galen had already become an insanely good duelist, defeating impressive opponents such as Rahm Kota. Yet her speed was almost too much for Galen to handle. The novel describes her attacks as "...driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all." Their duel ended when Shaak dealt three nasty blows across his shoulder, chest, and face, but Galen stabbed her in the stomach at the same time. So I'd hardly call that being outwitted. He got lucky and he knew that. "He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her." So he may have won, but it wasn't exactly clean.

If we look at the comic version, she has him outmatched and outclassed again, not just with a saber, but with the Force as well. The duel shows that she is able to switch instantly between saber attacks to Force attacks at any moment. The only time that Galen gains the upper hand is right at the end when he gets desperate and explodes into a ball of Force lightning, then she ends the duel by killing herself.

Spoiler: Shaak Ti vs. Galen Marek (comic)

So the novel loss was mostly luck with a sneaky stab to the stomach, and comic loss was to a Force explosion. And losses or not, these duels still show off her skillset and just how great of an opponent you'd need to be to take her down. Hoth and Farfalla either need to be highly skilled duelists, able to match Shaak's impressive speed and get through her attacks, or have incredible power in the Force that's able to counter her own and actually stop her. If you can show me this duo overpowering an opponent on the same level as Shaak, then fair enough.

I know quotes don't go very far as feats, but apart from the obvious four - Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan and Anakin, there's always two other Jedi that constantly get referred to as "the best in the Order" and amazing duelists - Kit Fisto and Shaak Ti. When you're constantly referred to as one of the best in an Order with countless Jedi, then you're obviously doing something right.

"Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi."

"The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order, and one of the most accomplished in lightsaber combat."

Obi-Wan: "Shaak Ti's the most cunning Jedi I've met. She's even taught me a few tricks."

 

Thank you for sharing those scans. Here's my issue: With Shaak Ti especially, there is always an alternate version.

Take that fight. There is the official version: The game. Then there is the comic. And then there is the novel. Which should we judge when each match is so different?

If we go by the game, a large part of her advantage was location and the sarlacc. If we go by the novel and the comic, it's on Starkiller's own inexperience.

But that's just it: Shaak Ti isn't facing two inexperienced jedi unfamiliar with war or the force. She is facing two jedi who have fought in war and fought sith. They are far more ready for her than she is for them. And this is the problem she faces. She has no record of handling multiple saber wielding opponents off on her own and doing so successfully. This natural trump has fought in war and against a common enemy. And each one has a style that complements the other. One on one, yes I could see Shaak Ti having an advantage. Prepared perhaps even more. And if the location were in her favor as well, that would also be a factor. But that is not the case here. She is unprepared in a neutral location.

Listen, I get that the trump she faces has little written, but from what we do have it's well established that they are some of the most skilled warriors of their time and they lead their respective forces to multiple victories against fully trained sith lords. And it's that which I want to hammer home. Shaak Ti doesn't have dueling wins. She has losses. A lot more than most because of the alternate ways in which she loses, but she loses. Hoth meanwhile willingly walked into an ambush to save his army in an attempt to stop Kaan- that wasn't a defeat on the battlefield. And Farfalla took a small crew and nearly defeated both Bane and Zannah lasting far longer than Kolar, Kit, and Saesee Tiin did for that matter. And that was after his multiple triumphs earlier in the war (Kashyyyk and Ruusan). It would be one thing if Shaak Ti had a record of victories against multiple saber wielding opponents, but she really doesn't. Her closest victories are one on one and even then, she loses.

 

Jaina typically has an edge if she can make the fight about lightsaber ability. She is the Sword of the Jedi, after all.

However, Dooku is just a bad match-up for her, because he, too, has the edge when it comes down to lightsaber skills, and he's an even better duelist than she is.

His trump-busting of Anakin/Kenobi on Geonisis - while, admittedly, neither Anakin nor Kenobi are prime - is among the top duel feats in Star Wars. But, then again, it's not the only time he's come up against that trump and come out on the better end of it. Nor is that the only trump he takes down, taking down Ventress and a couple of other Nightsisters while blind to them. Ventress and Vos together can't overcome Dooku:

Worried that he's just a trump-busting specialist and can't handle a 1x1 duel? He bosses and toys with General Grevious in a way that no Jedi could - not even Kenobi. He takes Yoda to the limit. He absolutely owns Quinlan Vos. Ditto for Sora Bulq. Tactically chooses to stalemate Mace Windu. Oh, and he's faster than ****, Dark Disciple describing him as "going from standing perfectly still to a blur", backed up by the RotS novelization describing his moves against Kenobi as a "blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin".

I'm not here to downplay Jaina at all. I've argued for her previously in this draft, and she's been vastly underrated. But, sometimes, it comes down to match-ups. And the simple fact is, Dooku is a terrible match-up for her. The 2006-2007 Dallas Mavericks were the best team in the NBA, they won 67 games. But, come playoff time, they got matched up with the Golden State Warriors, and that was a terrible match-up, and they lost. in six games. The Mavericks were a better team, they just didn't match up well head-to-head. And, it's the same story here. Jaina is a better pick than Dooku in terms of drafting order - she's overall got more value. But head-to-head, he outclasses her. He's got better high-end feats, he's a better duelist, and her strength plays into his.

 

Me when people keep wanting to use Vos as evidence this round:



I'll just say that's an oddly small snippet of a much longer Dark Disciple fight, and it actually sees Quin owning both Grievous and Dooks, and even that's still not peak Quin, and...

I'll shut up now.

Unless DE counters with a claim of Jaina going back in time to FIGHT QUINLAN VOS SOMEHOW

EDIT: Also, while it doesn't monumentally affect Inty's arg either way, I might not have said anything had he not used an analogy involving the Warriors winning a series

 

Sorry, wanted to touch on this point specifically. You are aware that the Imperial Knights (specifically Ganner, Draco, and Azlyn) know this trick as well and did it to Darth Krayt and his team when they ambushed him along with Cade, Shado Vao and others right?

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/6933307-1488365483-69333.jpg
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111173561/6933308-9175062779-69333.jpg

So, if three Imperial Knights were trained in this as well and they focused specifically on offensive uses of the force to protect their emperor, do you doubt that Treis Sinde who trained with Fel and trained knights including Sigel Dare (who also fought with Ganner and Draco many times) would not be able to detect this?

I mean, Fel could detect when an assassin entered his chambers:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11130/111300234/6336818-3050423995-63101.jpg
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11130/111300234/6336819-3312241627-63101.jpg

Again, we're talking about two knights who fight hordes of sith. It's not a one on one duel. It's one to two, one to three, one to four at times. And these knights survive because of their training and skill. When compared to the three zabraks, the skill isn't comparable. Agen may have died due to Sidious but that was when he walked in knowing he was arresting a sith lord. So if he couldn't handle a situation where he knew he was facing a powerful sith lord, how do you think he'd handle two Imperial Knights who he knows NOTHING about? At worst, my guys will think they are jedi from Luke's order, but that won't dull their skill any. If anything, they'd expect a better fight given the jedi have been fleeing Krayt's sith for years.

And again, the knights have tricks up their sleeves such as this:
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11130/111300234/6336820-8822331474-63101.jpg

All knights have cortosis to disrupt sabers. So if a two skilled and full trained Imperial Knights disrupt Koth and Kolar's sabers (or the half trained Maris) then they take them down and your number advantage goes away very quickly.a

Lastly, with Treis specifically, in terms of training and skill, he was on par with Roan Fel:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/u...RPRAl1Bt914KLU8YjHWl4G6VRGU5WsshxOJQo24=s1600
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/u...30m8QnLyVmTls23kTB766xhsxN6YgLZ494o4y84=s1600

So not a slouch when it comes to fighting or prowess.

 

Don't blame me that they used Vos as the Prequel Era measuring stick.

And, c'mon, it's not like those Warriors and the current team should even be considered the same franchise.

 

I mean, your Republic comic frame is a great example for Dooks.

Only blaming you for cutting short that Dark Disciple fight, where Vos actually subdues both GG and Dooks on his own.

I've been trying to save that passage to blow out how dope NuCanon Quin is, and I don't wanna go early!

 

I'll have something up tomorrow for Jaina - Dooku and probably Senya/Lana - Maul

 

I forgot to mention the Kanan and Ezra vs. Ulic fight before. I can't say much, because I have literally zero knowledge of Ulic, but I would like to correct some statements in case it makes a difference.

They held their own against Vader, then once they'd dropped an Imperial Walker on him they ran. Fair enough. Vader's almost unbeatable.

Early on in Rebels, Kanan used to get beaten and run away like you said, because he wasn't fully trained. He was a Padawan when Order 66 occurred, so never got to finish his training. However, by the end of season one he'd already gotten good enough to defeat the Grand Inquisitor.

Skip ahead to the end of season two after he'd lost his vision, and Kanan was already good enough to take down Maul in seconds. Then they only improved further as the seasons went on. So no, I definitely wouldn't say the pair run away from battle and lose to every opponent. Far from it in fact. They've handled powerful opponents. They've beaten powerful opponents. And a lot of that is without preparation.

 

You forgot to mention their fight against Vos.

 

Jaina v Dooku

Posting this less so for the "equal to anyone in the Order" bit since we already know that, but for the "time and time again" bit. That's Jaina's thing: she's been forged in wars for years and years and years. She's been trained in basically every form of combat there is, by some of the greatest of all time: Luke, Katarn, Boba Fett, her father... She matches blade with Kyp as a teenager (I know we've ragged on Kyp a bit here lately, but at the time he was pretty clearly the most combat-focused Jedi and obvious #2 to Luke in fighting skills), defeats Tsavong Lah (while her feet are immobilized) again as a teenager. And then she gets like 3 more wars and 20 years of experience and training to add on to that.

Jaina has one of the widest knowledge of combat Force powers and their uses in combat; she's got quite the number of different tricks up her sleeves- some taught to her by dedicated Jedi hunters. Dooku relies so heavily on his Force senses to track opponents (we see this vs nightsisters)- how's he going to react when Jaina shuts herself off in the Force and he can't sense her movements? We've seen time and again how losing their ability to sense others in the Force hampers Forcer-users who haven't faced this technique before.

[examples of classical masters getting beat by someone young and scrappy because they have new tricks or fight dirty]

And he also has some not so good showings.
Kenobi literally walks right past Dooku and grabs the Chancellor lol
And he gets choked out and slammed by Savage Opress
Not to mentioned getting captured by mere gun-wielding mooks.

And as Ken mentioned, he gets pretty soundly beaten by Vos shortly after your quote in Dark Disciple.

Jaina has literal pages of her moves being "lightning fast"

Trying to argue about speed is pointless because of how different the mediums are, for example the ROTS novel says some bs about a hundred strikes a second or somesuch but in the movie it's nowhere near anything close to that.

All Dooku has going for him is being rather good at one style of lightsaber combat- he has nothing that Jaina hasn't seen or dealt with before. And Makashi has its weaknesses- raw power is able to overcome finesse.

Mhmm

Just some more good stuff:

The passage is a little vague, but the context is that Jaina breaks Caedus's Force-choke, which is no small thing.

It's not everyday you surprise Luke with how strong you are...

And speaking of Apocalypse, the battle in the Jedi Temple last for two days where Jaina and the other Jedi are vastly outnumbered and on the run from the Sith- no time to sleep, no time to rest and Jaina is still crushing them at the end there. Dooku has nothing on that kind of fighting stamina and perseverance. She's taken on Sith in the middle of dark nexuses where she's been depowered and they've been boosted, and she still slices them down in seconds (Dromund Kaas, Upekzar).

Oh, and we're in the Yavin 4 praxeum...so large advantage to her.

I get that Dooku is really good- I just think that Jaina has too much experience to be beaten by him just because he's really good at makshi. She's got her own prodigious skill and abilities and, imo, just has too much in the tank to lose here.


I'll be able to get Maul v Lana/Senya tonight

 

Sorry 'bout the delay

Senya Tirall + Lana Beniko vs Maul

Senya

Start with the Betrayed cinematic, relevant bits from 3:30-4:10 where she handily beats a squad of Zakuul Knights

Note on Zakuul knights- these are the elite guards of Zakuul/Valkorian and are generally considered IU to fight better than an average Jedi or Sith fighter.

Satele Shan and the Outlander. Just some useful stuff to keep in mind that Satele considers these guys tough opponents.


Follow that with A Mother's Hope, picks up with her vs Vaylin on Ord Mantell. I'll quote the important bits here:

Senya using her extensive combat training and experience to defend against a foe that vastly outstrips her in Force power (this is after Vaylin's power has been fully unlocked).

Jumping back in time a little, this is the first fight between Senya and Vaylin (pre full power).
**Bonus Lana badassery at 3:10-3:30

Note how Senya casually chucks THE OUTLANDER out of the neighborhood lol (like Lana has to jog a fair bit to get to them). She then goes on to win the fight vs Vaylin.

Sidebar on Vaylin's power level at this point. Yes it's before her peak, but she's still pretty powerful and I'd say fairly close to where Maul is

Spoiler: Vaylin stuff

Important bits:
1:35-5:20 Lana + Outlander is scared to take on Vaylin, struggle with big door that Vaylin just crushes
6:10-6:40 Vaylin chucking half a skyscraper at them

Senya vs a squad of Zakuul knights (if darkside options, these are elite Mandalorians idk if it makes a difference to anyone, just adding to the resume)
Important bits 18:00-19:00
That's some seriously bonkers Force blast/kill wave at ~18:45. Like that's actually really scary and impressive that that's something she can do- not everyone can.


Lana

She's pretty adept at using the Force while fighting- she's constantly using lightning, often literally blasting dudes and droids to bits. She's handled Zakuul knights, skytroopers, Sith lords, Revan....

**go back up to the earlier video that had a note on Lana blasting people and watch that part too

Casually dealing with some Zakuul Knights


Her and Theron holding off waves of skytroopers
https://youtu.be/Gy5JgiQ33t0?t=1264

There's also tons of generic gameplay footage fighting enemies with Lana as a companion, if you can wade through all the romance videos people post

vs Maul
I've got a decently cohesive trump here--they work together to defeat Vaylin and Valkorian in Knights of the Eternal Throne--and they both have a ton of experience and power. I think Senya's showings vs Vaylin put her pretty close to Maul on her own and if we add Lana to the mix, I think they take him down. Senya, trained as a Zakuul Knight, poses a different kind of challenge to Maul- she's something he's never faced before. On the other hand, Maul is kind a of typical aggressive fighter Sith that doesn't rely heavily on Force abilities- something both Senya and Lana have taken on before. Maul's showings vs Obi-wan in TCW have always been either with Savage on his side or pretty short- we can't say he was definitively at his level. And when they do face off in Rebels, it's a quick slice. Maul's showing vs Ahsoka put them roughly equal, and I would contend that pre-powered Vaylin is in that same tier; powered Vaylin above them. Senya's got the chops to hang with him; Lana closes the deal.

 

First of all

Why even bother with this? Characters are judged on PEAK. If we went with this as a barometer, Luke would lose literally every battle, because in the first half of every novel, the new BBMFOD defeats him, until he finds his inner peace about it and soundly defeats them later in the book. It's like arguing LeBron vs. Jordan and citing Jordan with the Wizards. You're better than this. But I'll play your game.

"Gets chocked and slammed by Savage" ... after bossing Savage around and while engaged in a duel with Ventress. There's nobody here to engage with Dooku to allow him to be so distracted. And, I would argue that ending the fight with Ventress narrowly escaping death despite that ... makes this a better showing for Dooku. Thanks for bringing it up.

"Kenobi literally walks right past Dooku and grabs the Chanellor" ... while he is engaged in combat with and besting Anakin Skywalker. Like, really? These are the "bad" showings? Oh no! He's unable to protect a "hostage" (who was not really a hostage, as we all know) while battling and bettering one of the greatest Jedi of all time. Cool. Thanks for highlighting these as the bad showings for Dooku.

Jaina's best showing (which I love, BTW) is against her brother and has more asterisks on it than Barry Bonds career. Against not just her brother, but her twin brother, who she knows better than the back of her hand. Who was injured prior to the fight.

Jaina's got other good showings. But ... not on the level of what Dooku has produced. She's got nothing (beyond Jacen) to rival any of Yoda, Skywalker, Kenobi, Skywalker/Kenobi, Ventress, etc. Good against the Vong is not good against a tried and true veteran lightsaber combatant and proficient user of the Force.

No, just every book. I'm not gonna go fishing for quotes, but I'm pretty sure in every new story, Luke gets suprisied with how strong/capable/able/etc. someone is. It's kind of his thing ... at least in the first half of books.

We literally have dozens of showings where Dooku's Makashi is not overtaken by brute force, be it Skywalker or Maul or Savage. We have on showing where it is - when Anakin Skywalker is willing to tap into the Dark Side of the Force. Jaina's not doing that. Hypothetical weakness is one thing, showing that you're not actually susceptible to it? That's a whole nother ball game.

Dooku has the experience edge by a parsec, and that's the crucial edge here. Jaina's not tapping into the dark side to beat him like Anakin did. Jaina doesn't have someone else showing up to distract and engage him in combat so she can surprise him.

 

Have I mentioned I love this game

 

What? It's perfectly fair to point at instances where your opponents have struggled. And the last time Luke lost an early fight against someone he's better than was like Dark Nest or NJO, hardly recent.

Ah, I should explain those better.

The first one of Savage getting Dooku is how Makashi can be overcome by straight power and, if Savage had better target priority, could have beaten Dooku. It's basically the same move Dooku uses in ROTS on Obi-wan

The second one is showing that he's not better than Anakin, and if he's unable to prevent Obi-wan from simply walking past him that would discourage the idea that he can boss Anakin + Obi-wan around, no?

I don't think those fights have nearly that many asterisks on them The second one, yeah, has the most where she surprise stabs him at the start while he's down an arm, but there's still some good stuff from her through that fight.

First one though is a bit more straight up and all (and it's been quite a while since Jaina has had that kind of knowledge on him)

During the Jedi Temple Run

And she'll still able to dumpster Sith and help deactivate the shields, while all 3 of them (Luke, Corran, Jaina) fully expect to die. Which, incidentally, is where the following was from

Mmm sure thing

Just those times where he was overcome by pure power by Savage, Quinlan, Anakin. Why would using the darkside have anything to do with the ability to defeat Dooku? Jaina's quite capable of doing it lightside style.

 

Wouldn't call Quin's victory pure power, it was more all-around dominance that actually resembled Vaapad (which is cool b/c Vos knew that in Legends too). If anything he actually outskills Dooku in that penultimate fight, which is wild to say.

At this point I don't think anyone's read Dark Disciple, but it's a pretty rad book. Basically Season 6.5 for anyone who's a TCW fan.

 

I really want to see that story, because I’m a big fan of Ventress’ arc and I would’ve liked to see it continue further in TCW. I might pick it up and give it a go this year.

 

You convienetly leave out "when he's already engaged with another combatant", which is crucial information. Jaina isn't trumped with Ventress here. We have plenty of examples of Dooku not being overpowered when it's a 1x1 fight, which it is here.

I don't have to suggest he can beat Anakin and Obi-Wan, he's already shown he can ... again, non-peak, but besting non-peak Anakin + Obi is better than 99.87546% (i actually counted and did the math on this one) of the feats out there. And, again, if we're judging a character based on ability to simultaneously keep a hostage and defeat Anakin Skywalker in combat ... everyone fails that test.

Savage when he was engaged in a duel with someone else (not happening here)
Anakin when he was enhanced by rage / the dark side (not happening here)
Vos ... wasn't a pure strength play.

You're aiming at the death star, but you're firing with Red Leader, not Luke.

 

PM me your email, I used to work in digital book retail and if you have an eReader (Nook, Kindle, iBooks) or calibre-type program I can send you the epub for free.

Unless you want the pleasure of the physical copy, which I totally understand. The cover is really cool for a Ventress fan.