The Advisory Council Term 6 - Who are we and what do we do?

Uh, Ender_Sai I don't know who you are, outside of bieng a A.C. member. I saw the message from Darth Sapient and I responded, I didn't realize it had to be today.

My main issue was about having 1 person representing multiple forums (What Genghis and Strilo were discussing).
In all honesty, I find it odd that people from the other boards don't have individual representation, this is like having moderators/managers share boards, much chaos has been know to ensue at certain times at different places, I've never understood the reason for having people spread so thin.

For example, this is like having one member representing 5 states in the Senate.
Realistically, I would think that a better system would have at least one person from every forum and at the least one person representing two forums so as to make sure that people that are interested in this sort of thing can be represented fairly.

It's basically an issue of communication, it seems you have more forums than individual voices.
Sorry if anyone finds this offensive and I saw it was already discussed, but since I was called out, I guess I might as well reiterate my point.

That was the biggest issue I had, I hadn't gone through every post to see what else had been discussed.

 

Double post error!

BTW, if I find something else that I have problems with I'll respond here so everyone can see.
If I remain silent don't worry about it...
there's no problem.

 

Punisher...
"In all honesty, I find it odd that people from the other boards don't have individual representation, this is like having moderators/managers share boards, much chaos has been know to ensue at certain times at different places, I've never understood the reason for having people spread so thin."

IMO, I think maybe you're confusing two different, independent issues.

Issue #1 - "Individual Forum Representation"
Each individual forum already has it's line of communication between the forum users and the forum moderator. Go to pretty much every forum and in the top "toolbar" there should be a lit of forum moderators. If you have any forum-specific problems related to that particular forum, then you should always... always PM any of those forum moderators. In that sense, every user of the forum is their own personal forum-specific AC member. PM's are the forum-specific version of the AC forum. And in most of the major forums, there exist a forum "welcome" or "administration" thread to act as that forum's version of Comms. Because of all of these, every single moderated forum has available to it direct lines of communication to the moderators of the forum. That is not what the AC is meant to handle...

Issue #2 - "Site-wide Representation"
Outside of each specific forum, there are a number of issues that apply to all forums. Under the best of circumstances the Communications forum would be the best place to handle any such communication between users and the administration. However, history has shown that line of communication to be problematic for a number of reasons.

The AC was formed in part to solve the problems associated with communication via the Communications forum.

It is at this "global" level that the AC generally operates. It allows moderators a quick and efficient way to get the big picture from the point of view of regular users. We have our own Modsquad forum open solely to the administration. But, a past problem was that the administration focused itself only in this "ivory tower" of the Modsquad forums and the regular users felt alienated, even with Comms available.

Now, the regular users are given a form of representation via the AC to help act as a conduit between the Modsquad and those users interested in knowing about administrative issues they might not otherwise have been exposed to.

Sorry for that rather long explanation, but, in short, the AC was never meant to and is not substituting itself for direct communication with a forum moderator if you have some specific problem about some specific forum. The best way to handle any problem with a forum is to contact the forum's moderator. And if you can do that, then great.

And if not, then know that the AC can act as your regular user advocate in handling a problem.

 

That Genghis12 is wise. Someone make him a mod!

Oh...


Punisher, from reading your posts, I think you have the impression the AC is more of a formal representative group of the JC than it actually is.

We were picked by AC5. Don't ask me how they came to pick us, that's a question for them.

Once we were picked and given access, it was asked that we list the forums we are most familiar with. We did that. It's not like a TPM forum ACer was chosen. It doesn't work that formally.

I believe that AC5 and 6 represent a much wider cross section of the entire JC than previous incarnations did. This is no disrepect to the individuals who served on the first 4 ACs. But I think it was recognized that the makeup of the AC had to better represent more of the JC's forums than had previously been. I believe AC5 and 6 reflect that.

 

Rather than ask the ACers about the worth of the Advisory Council, why don't you people ask the mods? After all, they are the ones that use it. Don't continually assault the people asked to be on the AC. Continually assault the people that asked for the AC to be created, and the ones who use it.

The only worth the AC could possibly have to the JC is in how the moderators utilize the input they get from it. It's not the responisbility of the AC to tell you what the mods get out of it. It's the mods' responsibility.

bingo.

 

I would just like to reiterate what Genghis and RoyalGuard have both restated on this page.

AC MEMBERS DO NOT DIRECTLY REPRESENT A GIVEN FORUM OR A GIVEN SET OF USERS!!!!! Was that enough to get everyone's attention? Excellent. They are chosen because they care about the JC, they are not afraid to share their opinions and because they are (hopefully) the type who will work well in the focus group sounding board type environment that the AC is. Period. They represent only themselves when they speak their opinions. I did not speak on behalf of any constituents in SW Music or TPM or any other board I lurk or post in. I spoke to my own opinions and my own sense of what was in the overall best interests of the JC.

In an effort to make it clear that the AC is indeed a diverse group of posters, a list of all the forums they frequent is put in this thread. It is there so that people who might have a question for an ACer or an issue they'd like passed along to Mods can see what ACers post in their stomping grounds. That's it. The ACers are not Senators from specific forums.

I really hope this idea is clear. If memory serves, it's been clearly states upwards of TEN TIMES in the last few AC introduction threads. Let's get this point so we can all move on to productive territory, shall we?

 

Ender_Sai: "I've posted here saying I'm open to suggestions from people as to what they want from the AC..."

Some of us don't want it at all. Some people see it as a useless way of dividing the community and broadening the gap between the administration and the user base. Some people's best suggestion is the removal of it from the JC. If the AC was created to bridge the perceived gap between the administraion and the user population then I suggest that it has failed dismally given all the complaint threads and drama surrounding its life.

Adam Bertocci: "Why NOT have one? If the mods didn't think it was a good thing, they wouldn't have it."

Why not is hardly a valid reason to encourage a redundant system of moderation. Why not is never the justification for the creation of a new forum, so why should it justify the continued existence of one? I was a mod and I didn't think the AC was a good idea. I know there are definately upwards of ten current mods who think the AC is a dumb idea. There is no single train of thought amongst all the members of MS on this, some want it, some don't. So if your arguement is "If the mods think it's a good thing...." well not all of them do.

Genghis12: "...does not the opinion of the Supreme Chancellor of this site carry any weight at all?"

Does it count as anything other than the opinion of another moderator? He hasn't used his "powers" to smackdown any other things around the JC, why should that occur here? And there are also plenty of dissenting views towards the AC in the thread you linked to from past and present mods and users so I suggest everyone scoot through it for some balanced coverage of past events

 

. If the AC was created to bridge the perceived gap between the administraion and the user population then I suggest that it has failed dismally given all the complaint threads and drama surrounding its life.

Two points: 1. The AC was created only in part to help bridge the so-called "gap" between the mods and users. The mods felt like they needed a group of regular users to engage in discussion with over a number of topics. Every AC has succeeded in that regard.

2. You said the concept of the AC has failed miserably because of drama and complaints. By that logic, hasn't everything that's ever happened in comms been a "failure?" As a former mod, you must be aware of how anything brought up in comms automatically becomes a drama magnet, regardless of its content. If you feel like the AC has been a failure for other reasons, please say so. But I don't think the reasons you listed are legitimate in this case.


I was a mod and I didn't think the AC was a good idea. I know there are definately upwards of ten current mods who think the AC is a dumb idea. There is no single train of thought amongst all the members of MS on this, some want it, some don't. So if your arguement is "If the mods think it's a good thing...." well not all of them do.

By the same token, if so many mods were against it, the AC would have gotten the axe before now.

I hope there isn't one single train of thought among the mods. I would like to believe there are varied individuals in that group with very different opinions. If they were all sheep who said and thought the same thing, this would become an awfully boring and unchanging environment.


Interesting.....when I first started to reply to this thread, the posts I quoted from came from maestrino. Now I see them from DarthAttorney. Curious....

 

"The mods felt like they needed a group of regular users to engage in discussion with over a number of topics. Every AC has succeeded in that regard."

One thing is that you need to stop using the term "the mods", everyone does. A person is a mod, yes. But they are not all of the same mind when something happens. So not all of "the mods" subscrivbed to what you posted above. Some did. Some didn't. We have an entire forum full of regular users right here in Comms. Everyone can read it, post to it, offer an opinion. When things get stupid, there's hardliner rules rto smack them down. Why don't the mods use this forum instead of a private one? In this way, the AC is redundant.

"2. You said the concept of the AC has failed miserably because of drama and complaints. By that logic, hasn't everything that's ever happened in comms been a "failure?""

Ah, no.
There's been alot of great forum suggestions, quality policy questions and clarifications and some good stuff about the future of the site after Ep3 rolls around.

"As a former mod, you must be aware of how anything brought up in comms automatically becomes a drama magnet, regardless of its content."

No, it's just not true.
There are solid rules in this forum to ward off the drama. The mods for this forum seem to throw them around liberally but not use the benefits of them. It's like tightening security but not gaining any befits from it. If the whole concept of the AC were moved back into Comms then you'd see those rules first put in place by Kadue really paying off. Like they were supposed to all along.

"By the same token, if so many mods were against it, the AC would have gotten the axe before now."

What makes you say that?
As with the real word, the vocal minority has a tendency to dominate a discussion. Why would MS be any different? ?

"Interesting.....when I first started to reply to this thread, the posts I quoted from came from maestrino. Now I see them from DarthAttorney. Curious...."

Yeah, maestrino posted it first because I mistakenly typed it under her username without logging her out. Any mod with an IP scan will see we're on the same IP atm because I'm not at home on my own computer. Drama averted, DA has no leet haxor skillz.

 

"As with the real word, the vocal minority has a tendency to dominate a discussion. Why would MS be any different?"

You are assuming that the "vocal minority" are those who see a point in the AC, and find that it can be helpful. Yet, it could easily be said that the "vocal minority" are the few (ex-)moderators who always complained about the AC.

 

I'm assuming? ?

YJ, I've seen the debates.
I was knee-deep in them half the time.

So please, don't make out to these good people like I don't know what I'm talking about or making assumptions based on no proof.

 

What makes you say that?
As with the real word, the vocal minority has a tendency to dominate a discussion. Why would MS be any different

The first time the AC's fate was being discussed, the majority of moderators were against it or not in favor of it, but it was allowed to go on (partly, I think, because several moderators wanted to give the next group a chance). Along came AC3, and that rescued the AC, ensuring its survival.

The second time its fate was in question (in February), a formal poll was taken in the MS, and the majority of moderators were in favor of the AC (which basically sealed the issue).

 

Nevermind.

 

What makes you say that?
As with the real word, the vocal minority has a tendency to dominate a discussion. Why would MS be any different?

So you admit your opinion is in the minority? Then why would you be surprised the majority won out and decided to keep the AC for at least one more term? To be honest, I was surprised they kept the AC, but that was a collective decision by "the mods," regardless of individuals within that group who were opposed to it.

There's been alot of great forum suggestions, quality policy questions and clarifications and some good stuff about the future of the site after Ep3 rolls around.

The above statement also describes the AC forum perfectly, which you surely ought to remember well.

 

No, the vocal minority make their case and see it carried through usually against the wishes the quiet majority. I'm an exception to the rule, one who speaks on behalf of those who feel it's not their place to speak for themselves. Essentially the majority of MS.

KW is right, the first poll was resoundingly uncomittal. Alot of mods said that they didn't ever use the AC but would like to see how it went for the next term. The second poll was also decidedly uncomittal, with the vocal minority who use the AC coming out swinging an the people who wanted to reserve their judgment being swayed by the vocal minority in MS debate.

Sure, the last MS poll reflected that the AC should stay.
I wonder how such a poll would go when placed right here for average punter to comment on?
Afterall, the AC is essentially filling the role of Comms right? It's taking prominent users out of here and asking for their opinions in private, while what's left behind is a one way line of communication from MS to the users with heavy penalties for anyone who steps out of line.

 

"It's taking prominent users out of here"

Can't be true, because I'm on the AC, too. And who am I? .... Exactly!



If the Comms rules aren't enforced that strictly, drama goes rampant.
If they are, the mods get accused of censoring opinions. Which leads to drama.

 

I wonder how such a poll would go when placed right here for average punter to comment on?

Surely I don't need to remind you of the potential - and probable - abuse of such polls, thus rendering the results they yield unreliable.

Hopefully you'll get the answers you seek, DA, as so many others have.

 

Personally I also see no point in the AC, however the mods rarely want to change anything and the AC somehow manages to avoid promoting members who think it should be removed(they must all be farraday like drama mongerers and thus unworthy).

 

farraday...
"the AC somehow manages to avoid promoting members who think it should be removed(they must all be farraday like drama mongerers and thus unworthy)."

You were a part of the AC before farraday.

 

Actually I was an inregular member.

And I know the mods so regret inticing the AC to throw me out. Remind me again how you want the advice they provide? Or is it you want the advice you want?

 

We want whatever advice the AC can provide that can help improve this site.

However, just like with any advice given to the administration, whether the administration agrees that the advice is in the best interests of the site is a completely different matter entirely.

 

Genghis it's rude to use smiley faces to patronize someone.

And it's ruder to pretend you care about someone elses advice if just plan on doing what you think is best anyways.

 

The administration is not in the habit of rubber-stamping everything someone tells it. It weighs the various sides/facets of the advice to determine in the grand scheme of things whether that advice would be good to implement or not.

That goes for the AC, Comms, or if you hire carrier pigeons to send advice via a letter to Josh's home.

Just because you might tell us, "lolololo!ol Deer M0ds, 1 th1nk its a god idea to allow p0sting of pr0n. thx," doesn't mean we may think it's a good idea to allow porn.

 

A bit of a tangent but there are ways to run polls that cut any possibility of "rigging" with socks out of the equation royalguard96. The simplest way is for the person voting to make a simple one word post after they've picked their yes/no tab and submitted. At the end of the polling period, someone goes through and correlates the posts to the votes, then any extraneous anonymous votes for either option are discarded.

Not perfect but definately a better representation than anything in what the administration wants to term "drama threads" I guess, where we only ever have the people who feel strongly about an issue going toe to toe for their stand point.