The Mandalorian The Armorer

Technically, Luke is the rightful wielder. Obi Wan defeats Maul in their climatic duel, Vader kills Obi Wan in ANH, and then Luke defeats Vader in a duel. Luke then refuses to fight on and Sheev tickles him with lightning, stopping short of killing Luke and earning the right to wield the blade. But I think Mandos far and wide are calling AUDIBLE considering every person in that line of succession are not Mandalorian.

You could also say Palpatine was the rightful wielder following the events of The Lawless and Son of Dathomir, but he probably considered it a silly trinket and forfeited his claim by never taking the blade.

 

Well not really

Pre Vizsla fought Maul and Maul won

Palpatine fought maul with the darksaber and won thus making it by right his
Palpatine was killed by Vader thus making it his but Palpatine also killed Vader thus making it nobodies.

 

Incorrect, Maul made official the challenge to Pre and won. The darksaber was returned to Maul after The Lawless in Son of Dathomir because he is their leader. Furthermore, Maul and Talzin's plan was to lore out Sidious. Maul's actions in Rebels are unclear, and it appeared like he allowed himself to be killed cause The Chosen was would avenge him and Kenobi. Maul's deceptive like Loki, cause he's trained Sith Lord, and his true enemy was the Sith not Kenobi. On top of that Lucas had Maul train Darth Talon and take over the galaxy post ROTJ, Filoni's nonsense remains, thus that nonsense.


Another similarity between and Maul and the Armorer is that when they speak the others go silent, gather around and salute. You can see the zen and respect to authority they command. There is more to the Armorer than meets the eye.

 

The armourer doesn’t know that yet though

 

Kenobi made Maul look like a novice. Maul did not allow himself to be killed. At all. Filoni has explained that Kenobi won fair and square simply because he is one or two levels above Maul in knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber.

The only one who lored out Sidious was Abrams in IX.

What nonsense?

 

There’s no doubt in my mind that the Armorer is coming back in Season 3.

 

Since Din has the darksaber now and is technically the Armorer’s superior, I’m thinking that she would encourage him to lead Mandalore for her faction’s benefit. At least until she finds out he’s taken his helmet off, then she might try to kill him. Poor Din might have a lot of his own people out to get him in season 3. Whatever happens, I hope we learn more about the original Mandalorian Jedi that created the darksaber.

 

Are we going to see dynasty gymnastics about the darksabre like "who owns the wand" in Harry Potter. I hope not.

I think the Armourer will be back. In fact I think all the Mandalorians we have seen will be back.

Din will unite the factions/branches (or ensure someone else does, as he doesn't seem to be one for governing).

What this means for "the Mandalorian creed" that she/Mando is a bearer of, who knows? Maybe it changes.

(Boba, on the other hand, could be a different story).

 

lolol "Might as well unlock one more achievement before I go into this clone hibernation for a few decades".

Achievement Progress: 93%

*Vader throws Palpatine over the edge*

...so *THAT'S* why he was screaming falling down the shaft.

 

I've said this before, but i still think she has the interests of Din and Mandalore at heart.

 

Yes, I do think the fact he is named and that he is infact a Vizsla owes more to potential future story than it does to it just being a neat little cameo for JF.

I could see a situation in seasons future where Vizsla regains the saber from Din, only for it to be taken from him eventually by Bo Katan.
As much tension as they are and will build between Din and Bo, I just can't see a situation where they are out and out enemies.

 

I think you're over thinking this. TCW is a kids show. The Ming-Po women were just enslaved to be servants. I don't really see the Mandalorians wanting to breed with women they could easily push around and couldn't fight back. They'd probably prefer strong women who can breed a new generation of strong warriors. Also didn't Death Watch massacre them all in the end?

The idea that Bo Katan is a supremacist of some kind who only wants pure blood Mandalorians has nothing to support it. When she refuses to follow Maul it's because he is not a Mandalorian in anyway. Din has been raised as a Mandalorian since he was a child. He's steeped in the Mandalorian ways and culture and is even more fanatical about the Mandalorian ways than even Bo-Katan. Culturally Din Djarin is a Mandalorian through and through and why during the show she accepts him as a Mandalorian and asks for his help. Maul on the other hand is not at all Mandalorian. He doesn't care for Mandalorian culture and has no respect for their ways. He's a total outsider in every sense of the word and only cares for Mandalorian traditions in so far as they serve his own ends. Some like Rook Kast respected the old ways enough to accept Maul as the leader, but Bo Katan was looking at it more pragmatically and knew Maul didn't care for Mandalore and it's people and were only tools to him.

This is also why I agree Rook Kast is the top contender for being the Armorer. Think about it. Maul defeated Vizla in combat for the Dark Saber as is tradition with the ancient ways of Mandalore. Maul is then deposed and captured by Ashoka and a team of Clone Troopers. Bo Katan didn't defeat Maul in single combat for the right to rule and instead rebelled and had her allies whisk their rightful ruler away. Then what happened? The Mandalorians are massacred and Mandalore is taken by and possibly devastated by the Empire. When people are pushed to the brink they often fall back on religion. Rook seeing the Mandalorians abandon the old ways might have seen the Children of the Watch as a means back to salvation for herself and the Mandalorian people. I think she keeps the Horns on her helmet as a small reminder of her past.

Seems a way too deep a ruse to teach us all these ancient Mandalorian ways for them not to actually be ancient. The goal of the Watch is to reestablish and follow the ancient ways of the Mandalorians. If the helmet thing was recent why didn't Bo Katan bring it up as a means to break his fanaticism and recruit him. Feels like making something more complicated than it actually is. Also Din seems way too honorable for the Children of the Watch to be something Maul came up with. I think the Children of the Watch are exactly what Bo Katan described them as. Religious zealouts who broke away from Mandalorian society. They were probably more than happy to accept anyone who was willing to follow their ways, or take in anyone they could indoctrinate into it.

My guess is that the Children of the Watch were a sub faction of Death Watch just like the Night Owls. They might have seen the rest of Death Watch as bad Mandalorians like a Mormon, or Muslim that drinks, but they broadly speaking still hold the same values. Where as the New Mandalorians were probably seen as heretics and blasphemers who needed to be done away with. My guess is after Satine was deposed the Children of the Watch kept ties with Death Watch and later Gar Saxon, but left Mandalore to stay away from their corrupting influence. Din was likely saved by Death Watch, was raised in the fighting corp(which might be separated from the rest of Mandalorian society and used to weed out those unfit to be Mandalorians so no one who takes a foundling in gets shafted by one that turns out to be a bad warrior). Then when he came of age the Children of the Watch took him in. It might have even been agreed he'd be taken by the Watch when they found him. It isn't crazy to imagine the Watch only joined Death Watch as a means to get foundlings. The Watch provide the most elite and devoted Mandalorians out there and in exchange they get all the war orphans Death Watch finds, or create.

I don't think the Mandalorians hold any strict rules on succession of the Dark Saber, just as winning the Dark Saber doesn't guarantee the right to rule. The reason why winning it in a fight is important is the story of how one gets the Dark Saber is far more important than the history of the Dark Saber itself. It doesn't matter how the previous person got it. If it is won from a formidable opponent, or have some significance to the Mandalorian people, like winning it in a fight from the jerk who helped massacre their people and banished them from their world then the history of the sword doesn't matter. Remember the Mandalorian clans didn't care that Sabine, who herself just found it, just gave Bo Katan the Dark Saber and they accepted it. She already gained the right to rule when she lead the Mandalorian clans against the Empire and Tiber Saxon. Being given the Dark Saber was a gift meant to be a powerful symbol of her rule. Din Djarin and I'm assuming the Children of the Watch didn't know and/or care about the Dark Saber since it isn't from the ancient ways and is really just a political tool used by various Mandalorian leaders predominantly from clan Vizsla.

The reason it is probably important to Bo Katan is because she lost the Dark Saber from the Empire and possibly Moff Gideon himself. This was a huge blow to her honor and reputation as a leader and losing the Dark Saber along with Mandalore was a massive blow to her legitimacy. Winning the Dark Saber in a fight against Moff Gideon would be a huge boost to anyone trying to become leader of the Mandalorians and especially for Bo Katan. I wouldn't be surprised if Moff Gideon faked his own death as a means to keep the galaxies Mandalorians from trying to track him down for the Dark Saber. With his Death the chance to claim it from him was gone and any leads to its whereabouts.

I do think now that Din has won the Dark Saber in battle against Moff Gideon that the next season will be about uniting the clans. I think Bo Katan will realize she lost her chance to lead again and caring for her people will push Din to become leader of the Mandalorians, even if just a figurehead, and unite the clans to help take back Mandalore. The Armorer might be keen on helping one of her own, a child of the Watch become leader of the Mandalorians. Imagine it a Child of the Watch tracked down Moff Gideon and won back the Dark Saber in single combat. That story alone would inspire other Mandalorians to follow "The Way" and making Din leader of the Mandalorians and reclaiming Mandalore would only further their cause even more. Maybe trying to use Din to impose "The Way" on all Mandalorians. Now whether Din follows along with any of this is a whole other matter.

 

On the one hand you claim that Mandalorian are race-driven ubermensch who wouldn’t want to “breed” with people they considered physically and mentally lesser than them, and then you say that they didn’t care about blood and genetics. The foundling said policy of the Children of the Watch is also evidence of that. I agree with your latter point. But why do you say the former? It’s contradictory. I don’t see evidence of the Mando’s being hardline racists who won’t “breed” with people they think are genetically inferior. If that was the case, rooting for them at all would be problematic.

 

I don't mean it in a race kind of way, but on individual basis kind of way. The Mandalorians are a society of warriors. I think they're more than glad to bring anyone they perceive as strong into that society regardless of origin so long as they adopt their ideals. People on average are attracted to certain features often considered beautiful and attractive is because they're a signs of health, or features that the society considers positive and often there is a genetic component to that. Animals in nature are selective about the features mate has. Colorful plumage for Peacocks is a sign of good health. For many horned animals a big horn means they can better protect themselves. So it's not crazy to think that a warrior culture that values physical strength and warrior prowess from both sexes in their society would have mating preferences for strong individuals. Some people are naturally strong and some are naturally weak. If they haven't proven they're strong and capable warriors yet why would you want to have kids with them and possibly have kids with a genetic disadvantage. If you have two individuals from the same village and they're cousins, but one is tall and muscular and wins fights and the other is small and frail and can't stand up for themselves I think the Mandalorians are going to pick the former of the two. This is why I think the fighting corp is possibly meant to weed out the weaker foundlings. Din got through the fighting corp to prove himself a warrior. Although considering the state of Mandalorian society I don't think they can afford to be as picky. Basically heritage isn't a requirement to being accepted into Mandalorian society, but strength and ability which often can be natural and tied to genetics is.

In the case of the Ming-Po, especially the women they enslaved, they likely saw them as weak and submissive. You don't want build a society of conquering warriors from submissive weaklings. If they're physically weak, it may mean they're genetically weak and aren't good mates.

 

That’s all unequivocally racist. There’s nothing non-racist about it. And eugenicist to boot. What you’re describing was an official perspective of Germany’s Nazi Party. “Breeding out the genetically weak” and all that. You do realize the abhorrent nature of what you’re describing, I imagine? Not justifying it, I hope? I’ll assume so, as I can’t imagine anyone on these boards actually promoting such a view.

And if it was true of Mandos, why would some of them adopt the children of a people who were being systematically destroyed by a droid army without fighting back, as Death Watch did with Din’s parents? Shouldn’t Din have been judged a possible genetic weakling, and thus rejected?

The race-centric, gene-centric concept for Mandalorian warrior society just doesn’t have support in canon.

 

I'd disagree it is racist. Racism is painting a broad brush over a whole racial group and judging and treating individuals of that group solely do to them being members of that racial group. The Mandalorians don't seem to do that. They seem capable of accepting anyone from any group so long as that individual is strong, or has the potential to be strong in the case of foundlings.

In real life there is far more genetic variation within any racial group on average then there is between racial groups on average. If you were trying to pick the strongest individuals it would make more sense to pick the strongest individuals from each group than to pick one whole racial group that you think is the strongest on average. In the former case you'd be ignoring race and picking based on merit. Even if we change it to just tall people instead of strong it would still be merit. Granted that selection was based totally on a genetic disposition and not something most people have any control over. Depending on the reasons that could be totally wrong, or essential. Only picking tall people to teach would be wrong because it makes no sense. Having preference for tall people in a sport like professional basketball makes sense since taller people have an advantage at the sport. It cuts the other way. You don't normally want tall olympic divers. While I can't think of one specifically there are jobs that require people to be a certain height for good reason and it can go both ways short, or tall. The Mandalorians apply a standard of strength as part of being admitted into their society. One could certainly argue that is wrong, but I certainly wouldn't call it racist.

Also to the matter of genetics. I don't think the Mandalorians think of the genetics explicitly. On an subconscious and animalistic level part of the reason people find certain traits attractive in others, especially physical features is partly in the hope they'll pass those traits onto their offsprings. Even if they know those traits aren't genetic(cosmetic surgery), or plan to have kids that subconscious desire is still there. It all comes from the old lizard parts of our brain.

When you have a society that values strong individuals from both sexes it only makes sense the average Mandalorian would be attracted to such individuals and would prefer such individuals in their society. Although I don't think it's a strict rule so much as a cultural feature and societal pressure and in Death Watch they want to be conquerors and likely their kids to be conquerors. Having kids with a fellow conqueror is probably more likely to produce conqueror children. The Ming Po were seen as weak and submissive so the Death Watch members probably just didn't see them as attractive. That's why I said they wouldn't mate with them. That doesn't necessarily exclude them taking Foundlings from them. If a Ming Po was taken in as a Foundlings and grew up to be the greatest warrior ever I'm pretty sure they'd be considered one of the most attractive individuals on Mandalore.

The Foundlings are given a chance to prove themselves. I think that's why they take them in as children. The children have way more potential than their parents. Din's parents chose not to fight because they weren't culturally conditioned to fight, but if Din is raised a Mandalorian he has the potential to be a killing machine. Also it's easier to induct them into Mandalorian society and culture at a young age.

To top this off the Galaxy Far Far Away doesn't have our modern Western concept of race if a concept of race between humans at all. The humans of that Galaxy seem more divided along the lines of culture. Once a Foundlings is taken and raised to be Mandalorian they're no longer of their birth culture and now part of the Mandalorian culture.

 

Paz Vizsla seems the obvious one, though I also want to know more about the Armorer herself, and the Darksaber could be a good prompt for that.

 

I said move on - TtJ

 

Is Paz the big brutish one who attacks Din?

 

Yes, he later patches things up, so to speak.

 

I would find that engaging, so long as Paz and the covert is not written off, like Paz either remains an ally to Din or becomes one again. Their part in Din's story hasn't exhausted its potential yet.

I'd also find it interesting if Paz feels entitled to or wants the Darksaber, not because he feels he is entitled to leadership, but because he considers the Darksaber something akin to a family heirloom that is of immeasurable historical value. Be interesting if he objects to it being used as a symbol of leadership because he feels it diminishes its history rather than celebrates it, especially when it's repeatedly been lost: Pre Vizsla lost it to Maul and Bo-Katan lost it to Gideon. Paz is offended and doesn't want Bo-Katan (or any other outsider) to have it because she wants the darksaber, not to protect it because it's an important historical artifact, but because it's a tool which history and symbolism she can exploit to validate her claim to the throne of Mandalore.

On the less serious side:
Paz: "You are not endangering one of the oldest and most treasured objects in our history. It belongs in a museum! ... We don't have any left, so I'm putting it in the covert's vault."
Bo-Katan: "But-"
Paz: "Swords is no basis for a system of government! What is this, Year 24981? We use guns now."

The covert seems to be centered around preserving Mandalorian culture and history. Given that recent Mandalorian history has been plagued by power struggles (that left Mandalore weakened), I can't imagine the covert feeling particularly compelled to join in a battle for Mandalore.