She didn't fight directly in the battle, but she was part of battle. Like when we count battles we count in all the troops even if they didn't actually have the chance to fight.

Again she was part of the troops, she was protecting others and heard the battle all helped her to know actually battle better and get ready with it, rather than just stay far away.

 

OMG, logic really isn't your strong point, is it? How exactly was she "protecting others"? She never got the chance to use her sword, she didn't get to fight - since the Uruk-hai never broke into the Glittering Caves, she never got the chance to protect those inside. We're talking about actual participation in battle, not some hypothetical "what would've happened if". And if hearing the battle somehow "helps" one to "know actually battle better", then by the same logic all the other women became better soldiers, because they could hear the battle, too.

 

I've really enjoyed what I've read of A Song of Ice and Fire, but for my money, it's LOTR all the friggin way. When I first attempted to read it as a teenager, I found his prose far too descriptive. But I went back to it not too long ago, and something changed. Those books are beautiful - the characters fascinating, the plot the stuff of myth, the setting so real. At times it reads like a history book, but I guess I like a history book, but I guess I like that now. Tolkien was OCD when it came to the building of his world, and I respect that to death. LOTR, all damn day.

 

She was assigned to protect them and was ready to pick up the sword. We are talking about to get ready to fight, are you saying taking you to the battlefield and give you duty, let you feel and hear the battle, does not help you to prepare better for the battle as a soldier even if you didn't pick up your weapon to strike down enemies?

Yes, it would make others stronger, just most of them are not shieldmaidens or joined battle later, nor were they assigned to protect others.

 

Bingo

 

I'm tired, too. It's time to drop it.

 

Discussion is fun; why else would you become a member of a discussion forum? Skip the posts you don't like.

 

No, I'm saying Eowyn had that extra edge of despair by dint of her being in love with Aragorn. Have you ever had a romantic relationship?

Monocausality and false dilemmas are both logical fallacies. It was both despair -- over losing Aragorn, over the events around her on the field of battle -- and love. Why disregard any possible character motivation except the single one you favor? Human beings are complex.

Why have you ignored my points about bravado, bravery, the special quality of the hero that distinguishes him or her from his or her fellows, etc. etc. etc.?

Hmmm. So her darkest time was the battle field. Then in the Houses of Healing she was no longer in her darkest time. Okay, sure. Still too on the nose. Don't re-write Tolkien for us; I prefer his version.

 

Book-wise A Song of Ice and Fire.
I really need to see the TV series though. The LOTR movies were amazing.

 

Both have pluses and minuses.

My biggest problem with GRRM is dropping characters for multiple books at a time (see: Rickon Stark) and taking three pages just to describe what someone was eating. That being said, the plots of the A Song of Ice and Fire books are great, especially A Storm of Swords.

JRRT is also far from perfect. His prose is beautifully written, but he glosses over very important things, like big battles, in favour of songs & poetry. That can make them very difficult to read.

In the end though, I had to pick LOTR, but once GRRM finishes his series that may change.

 

The extra one, is her love of her uncle, if it's the love of Aragorn and it's that deep, why would she change her love after just a few days?

Same thing

Her love is the reason because others are also quite brave.

Well the battle was won, the city was safe for a few days, Aragorn didn't die there.

Also you are keep pointing out her love of Aragorn as the reason for her to stand so fearless before the Witch King, doesn't that further proved her romance with Faramir was too rushed?

 

You didn't answer my question, why answer yours? Have you been in a romantic relationship or not?

Despair and love are related; her despair derived from her personal loss of Aragorn and from the danger to Theoden and the horrific events around her. In a way her love drove her to that despair. But that doesn't mean they're "the same thing".

And her despair is the reason too. Monocausality -- ascribing one single source to complicated events -- is always an error. Always.

Good points! I see what you mean. Matters were indeed worse on the battle field. But remind me: How does this support your point that Eowyn is poorly written again?

No. If you've experienced this kind of thing -- realizing the person you've been idolizing/desiring, but who won't give you the time of day, isn't for you but this other new and wonderful person is -- then you understand it. If not, you're likely to apply a degree of personal incredulity that human hearts could work like this. And yet....

 

NERDS

 

Yes, it's possible to like a person because of his/her looks, but without at least stay a while with him/her to know him/her well enough, I won't call it love.

Well, most of these appeal to the others as well, so it's more realistic for her to stay out with fear, but still have the courage to stay and fight rather than put fear behind, taunt and laugh at the Witch King.

Same.

So it wasn't her darkest time, her romance with Faramir was too rushed without much chemistry while the lines might be nice.

Yes I will get over it, but I, and I know most of the people, if they truly loved this person, it would take a while for them to get over with it and find new love, rather than decide to marry someone who they never met before after a few days, unless their goal is to cover the pain and get some random guy/girl, which clearly isn't Eowyn's motive.

 

yeah, this really went in a few weird areas after the initial launch (the thread, i mean. not the stories being discussed)

but the best way i could put it to relate to the most people here would be:

Lord of The Rings(+The Hobbit) = Final Fantasy I-VI and Song of Ice and Fire = Final Fantasy X-XIII
and don't ask me where VII-IX fit in to this. they don't. they represent all the other books you like that almost could have fit into this contest

 

What about Tactics? WHAT ABOUT TACTICS?

 

oh, and for the sake of the poll, i voted for final fantasy I-VI, i thought that X-XIII were all just a bunch of shameless money-grabs with no substance. game of thrones is pretty good though. in-depth and compelling, yet lacking in the originality and spontaneity of lord of the rings.

 

tactics could be Wheel of Time... except that i liked tactics

 

For the sake of everyone in this thread, including myself, I'm going to drop the discussion about Eowyn's characterization. I stand by my position as written upthread, and there's no point repeating myself ad nauseam.

Now what's this about tactics?

 

Just addressing this one point. There are many others I could mention, but this hasn't been addressed and I don't have a lot of time to talk right now.

If you want to talk about Eowyn randomly hooking up with Faramir after she thought the man she loved died, you have to remember something: she didn't even love Aragorn. She loved an idealized version that she built up in her head. Yes, he was amazing in reality, but that wasn't what she was seeing. She did barely know him as well. That didn't make the feelings any less real, of course, ieven if the target was off-center, which is why she felt so utterly crushed when she did. But Eowyn's quick romance with Faramir isn't just not unprecedented in life; it isn't unprecedented with her. The main difference is this time she and Faramir actually got to know each other as they healed and bonded together, and she fell in love with the man who was and not some ethereal version.

If you want to critize Eowyn's characterization, fine. If you want to critizice her motivations, or argue them, fine. I'll respectfully disagree. But your argument about the romance between her and Famarir (and Aragorn) is blatantly incorrect in context.

Oh, and for the record, I voted for LotR. Of course. All hail Eru.

 

Well, my screen name (and my avatar) might just give you an indication of where I stand on the matter, but... I'll clarify my answer nonetheless.

Consider this: If Tolkien hadn't had the success that he had, would Martin even have had the courage (and inspiration) to write his own series? One must, at the end of all things, render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar, and acknowledge the sheer genius of the man who, while a serious, highbrow professor at Oxford, laid his scholarly reputation on the line and dared to publish a fairy story, of all things. And while Martin's series seems longer, and described in more details, one mustn't forget that the Tolkien Estate is still publishing material (chief among them the Silmarillion, the Book of Lost Tales and the History of Middle-Earth), and that his world is quite completely imagined.

And while some seem to think that Tolkien's world has a black-and-white mentality, let me simply point out the fact that everyone in it is failible, except mayhap Eru himself, from the mightiest of the Valar (Melkor corrupting himself and becoming Morgoth, Sauron's ertswhile master) to the simplest Hobbit (for Frodo did put the Ring on at the end), and that the burden of choice is laid equally upon them all. Oh, and the last time the Valar got angry, they sundered a whole continent, so it's not like there aren't dire consequences, and the mightier the being, the greater they are. And the White Lady of Lorien has enormous potential to do evil in the name of good, while the traditional colours of the Kingdom of Gondor are black, yet they are the stalwart fortress of hope against the chaos unleashed by Mordor.

Cheers,
Lauré

PS: For the record, I also love the songs Tolkien wrote in his books, and while I don't know nearly enough about Martin's world, I hope there are more gems in the offing such as The Rains of Castamere and The Bear and the Maiden Fair. There must be more than two songs sung in the whole of Westeros...

 

yep..

 

Just a small note showing yet again how Martin is beholden to Tolkien, regarding a factoid I came across by pure happenstance... In the long history of Gondor, there was a war called the Kin-Strife in which Castamir the Usurper took the throne of Gondor for his own, before the rightful king Eldacar came back ten years later to solidly trounce the pretender's forces and reclaim his birthright. More details can be found here and here.

Considering the history between the Reynes and the Lannisters in Westeros, the fact that they were related Houses, and the fact that the former challenged the latter's rule and position, driving Tywin Lannister to conduct the harshest repression imaginable, I find it unlikely that the name of the castle of Castamere would be a pure coincidence, and must indeed be more in the style of a homage. After all, it wouldn't be the first time Martin borrowed from Tolkien, as the traditional Valyrian salute, "Valar Morghulis", is a straight reference to Tolkien's Valar and Morgul (meaning "black arts" in Elvish); the name of Valyria, the lost empire from whence the Targaryens came, is likewise quite close to that of Valinor, the land from which the Elves were exiled and only allowed to return to after many, many years of atonement.

Cheers,
Lauré