The CGI overuse discussion

The dramatic conclusion of the film dragged. It was too long. If some of the massive CGI scene had been trimmed out towards the end, and the original scene used that was planned instead of the droid factory scene (which was a big effects scene), the last 3rd of the film would have been better paced.

 

@Darth-Stryphe

Do you only mean the droid-factory scene then, or were there scenes in the arena/clone wars that should have been cut out?

 

I would have cut the droid factory, put the original scene back in, shortened the Jedi battle and cut the Clone battle out (show the rescue from Yoda, then cut to Ben and Anakin chasing Dooku).

 

I would have cut the droid factory, put the original scene back in, shortened the Jedi battle and cut the Clone battle out (show the rescue from Yoda, then cut to Ben and Anakin chasing Dooku).

That would require changes to the storyline as well then? This whole army comes in to pick up the Jedi, then waves out the droid ships taking off while Ben and Anakin chase Dooku alone (other Jedi are chit-chatting with the clones - "how did you ever squeeze your head in those helmets?").

 

At the risk of bearing the warning wrath of the Moderators by sinfully speaking of Episode II in this forum, "how did you ever squeeze your head in those helmets??"

Clone Trooper replies, "Trim Spa Baby!"

 

//?//

 

I've said before that for me the big problem with TPM's visuals is the crispness and cleanliness of it. Star Wars was the first space set film that didn't show everything shiny white and new. It showed a used universe where ships, uniforms and buildings were dirty and old.

Enter TPM and everything from costumes to comlinks look like they've just come out of the packaging. Having swum down to Gungan City, the Jedi's robes are remarkably clean throughout the rest of the film.

Where does this fit into a discussion about the overuse of CG? Well IMO the effects generally (including CG) only add to this. Super-crisp CG graphics can look a lot like video game graphics, lacking that blurred/grainy/imperfect look that 'real life' has.

It's not a criticism of CG because both the Matrix and LOTR manage 'dirty' CG well. To me, even the carpets in the Jedi Temple and Galactic Senate are so bold, bright and clean that they could have been generated in a computer.

 

Hmm. One of the things I admire the most about the CG use in TPM is that I felt they nailed that "lived in" look absent from so many other CG effects extravaganzas. There were things that were shiney and new, like the Queen's Royal Starship, but other things like the McQuirre Republic Cruiser at the beginning, and the pod racers on Tatooine. Just about everything on Couruscant. The things that looked all new and shiney seemed to represent the artistry of the galaxy before the dark times to me. This pretty stuff is slowly replaced by more functional, less artistic designs as the Empire takes hold.

 

Well I think the clean look in a lot of TPM lies in two facts: 1. TPM visits more regal and central places in the Galaxy. Not Tatooine or some rebel base or some gas mine. We're talking about the center of the entire Republic here. Or a very refined and regal planet like Naboo. 2. We're talking about a "more civilized age." I think one of the results of this is that the less civilized age is going to be grittier and more lived-in.

 

That would require changes to the storyline as well then?

Maybe some, but not much. All you need to have happen is the three heroes escape their paril in such a way that Dooku decides to flee. The current way they have it, you have scene after scene where more and more CGI, but the drama gets less and less intense. I think it would have worked better with one big rescue, as oppose to two.

 

I thought it was a joke that The Matrix won the Best Visual Effects Oscar. TPM contains some of the best FX work in history. Just gorgeous, practically perfect work from ILM. The pod race sequence alone will hold up better than overused, overrated "Bullet Time".

 

I agree. It´s just that the Academy hates whatever Lucas does. He doesn´t work with Hollywood. On second thought, Peter Jackson didn´t work with them either and his WETA puppies won. Of course Lucas and ILM would have deserved all these awards in 1999 and 2002.

IMO people who think you can overuse CGI (which is nonsense in a SW movie) seem to limit their imagination.

ILM certainly knows better than anyone on these boards what is cheaper and what gives you the right effect.

 

Don't make VCT explain all of this again, the poor guy's done it so many times already.

 

I'll tell you one thing that Lucas and ILM certainly do not know. I am basing this on Episode I and II by the way. The only problem I have with too much CGI in movies... is the acting. The more REAL material an actor has to work with, the better he can perform. An excellent example of this is the difference in performances between LOTR and SW (although I hate comparing the two because they are both in different leagues of one another). The acting in LOTR is phenomenal, hands down. I am aware that this is probably from a number of different factors (i.e. I won't say a BETTER director because I know there won't be some happy campers with that, but a director who I think was more enthusiastic about the project, and cared so much for the quality of it... that he spent a lot of time working with the actors and improving their performances. Another factor would be that LOTR had better actors period. But a BIG factor is the FACT that the actors had much more to work with. Any actor or director (besides Lucas) will tell you that real sets are better than blue screen PERIOD

 

Let's not turn this into another LOTR/SW debate ok? This thread is about CGI not acting.

 

I was simply voicing my opinion on how I feel CGI affects the quality of movies.

 

Please refrain from the Hollywood conspiracies against Lucas, because they are NOT true and it makes the argument sound like "sour grapes."

Lucas won and was nominated for numerous awards for his work on the Original Trilogy. Secondly, the movie industry (meaning Hollywood) does many collaborations with Lucas' ILM and THX companies to enchance their films. Moreover, Fox (a Hollywood company) is the distributor of the Star Wars films. Lucas and his companies have not been blacked listed or frown upon by the movie industry, but rather the opposite as Hollywood more often than not apply the technology and techniques founded by THX and ILM.

Not to turn this into a Matrix v. EP1 debate, but "The Matrix" effects was more than just "Bullet Time;" much like the original Star Wars film was more than just lightsabers.

 

I'm a "basher" without much love for some of the acting of the prequels, but I can't stand the idea that it's primarily the fault of blue screen.

In Menace, much of Portman and Lloyd's much-berated work was done on sets and location. In Clones, most of Portman and Christensen's much-berated work was also, likewise, done on sets and location.

In contrast, MacGregor's work in Clones was good and even throughout, even on Kamino and Geonosis, where he was entirely alone. And Liam Neeson gave the best performance in any SW film playing against a floating blue bug.

For acting, let's AT LEAST attribute some of the blame to a) Lucas's own admitted disinterest in the subject, b) the use of minimal takes, c) the often difficult, sometimes impossible material and d) just plain weak or disinterested actors.

The absolute deification of CGI by Lucas and other filmmakers has had a MUCH more detrimental effect on screenwriting and editing than it has on acting.

It's the single most inexcusable action ever undertaken in regards to the SW franchise, so I will quote it again:

"All hell breaks loose."

 

I don't know if I would call it a conspiracy, but there are a lot of people in the Hollywood machinery who don't like Lucas very much because he basically gave hollywood the finger, then proceeded to outclass them in a lot of ways.

It got to the point that if someone in Hollywood wanted their special effects to even compete with Lucasfilm productions, they pretty much had to go to ILM.

Now Lucas is pushing the digital revolution to further take Hollywood suits out of the picture. Someday soon, an aspiring director will be able to make their own movie on their own computer with their own money. They will no longer have to grovel to people in the Studios who think good art is some kind of mathmatical formula.

Couple this with the fact that there was an unwarrented attempt by "the media" in general to ruin the box office on Episode I and it isn't hard to understand why that would happen. They did everything they could to kill Episode I and they barely made a dent in the box office.

Once again, Lucas came out on top.

People like to pretend Lucas is some kind of overbearing CG glutton, but most would be surpised to find out what was CG and what was practically photographed.

When he says something in the script like "all hell breaks loose" that means that he wants to work with the people who will be creating these scenes as they flesh out the sequence. It's not like Lucas told them to make "all hell break loose" and then he showed up on the final day of post production to cut whatever it was they did into his movie. He was in touch with them on a weekly if not daily basis. Looking at their ideas, picking and choosing the things he liked, and directing them all to create a cohesive, compelling and exiting battle sequence.

So what if it started out as "all hell breaks loose"? I know I loved every second of the first battle in the Clone Wars. What's not to like?

As far as Lucas and/or the actors/actresses being "disinterested" that is not accurate. Statements you may have to that effect are usually taken out of context. You don't happen to have quotes regarding these claims do you?

Lucas has a particular writing style, and a lot of actors have a hard time coming to grips with such well thought out and exquisitly paced dialogue. Instead of speaking like people normally would, the lines for characters in the SW films are not only short, to the point, and mostly devoid of 25 cent words, but they often serve multiple purposes, such as advancing the plot, offering character insight and actually rhyming (not so much that they sound the same, but that they feel the same) with other lines from other scenes in the same and other episodes of the saga.

 

Couple this with the fact that there was an unwarrented attempt by "the media" in general to ruin the box office on Episode I and it isn't hard to understand why that would happen. They did everything they could to kill Episode I and they barely made a dent in the box office.

I remember the media positively supporting the release of TPM.


IMO people who think you can overuse CGI (which is nonsense in a SW movie) seem to limit their imagination.

And people who discuss the fans instead of the films (which is against TPM Forum policy) tend to get banned.

 

Again, the comments that Hollywood is out to get Lucas sounds like "sour grapes."

Competition and "black balling" are two different things. There were no attempts to "black ball" Lucas from participating in Hollywood events or protest against the release of Episode One.

I'll try to locate the quote where Ron Howard states in the A&E biography of Lucas that George did not like working with the actors. I have it on videotape somewhere are home.

 

This is Ron Howard, would you have enjoyed working with him?

 

R2-12: I MEANT to say that you get better acting from "on location" shooting... and I used LOTR as an example for the brilliant locations they took the actors to. Also I said that blue screen was only one of the reasons for the bad acting... there are all kinds more. I just feel that too much CGI affects the quality of a lot of performances in a lot of scenes.

Speaking of Ron Howard... I watch Apollo 13 last night... good movie!

 

>>>So what if it started out as "all hell breaks loose"? I know I loved every second of the first battle in the Clone Wars. What's not to like?<<<<

If you love a third act given mostly over to secondary characters and background action, nothing. Again, I have nothing against CGI itself. But I do get the sense that GL counted on Clone's knockout punch coming from the fact that he could now paint a huge battle and animate a killer Yoda. And so he backed off reworking the script up to a more dramatic and personal conclusion.

I didn't cheer back in '77 when Luke got the shot off and destroyed the Death Star because I'd just seen ten minutes of incredible space battle ... I cheered because Luke survived a suicidal bloodbath and got the shot off and destroyed the Death Star.

As for acting, I still think blue screen isn't anything but a challenge. Take a good acting scene from any famous movie or great play, and give it to an actor worth his salt, and there's no reason he couldn't play it against thin air, or at least an off screen reader.

What I dont get is this: there couldn't be all that many moments when Ewan in the Kamino scenes, for example, couldn't have had the actor right there with him for most of his shots. Heck, the ability to split a screen was around for Georges Melies. That only really leaves imagining the environment, and, heck, every actor in every play ever made has to do that.

I think it's actually harder to fight nothing then to talk to nothing. Some of the composited Jedi shots in the Arena show some pretty weak flailing about.

 

Just as a side note:
The Queen´s shiny cruiser aren´t that clean. Take a closer look at the ship. I has lots of stains. Like when you leave fingerprints behind when touching chrome.

*cough* LOTR... flat out overrated *cough*