Saga The Chosen Post: The Prophecy's Importance, Palpatine's Plan To Escape It, & Why Mace Lost the Duel

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Nerdling, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Mar 20, 2013

    In the Darth Plagueis novel, which Lucas was pretty closely involved with since it connects so strongly to the PT, both Plagueis and Palpatine are fully aware that Anakin is the Chosen One. They know this about him even upon his arrival on Coruscant as a boy. I'm sure that if Lucas didn't want Palpatine to know about Anakin's status as the Chosen One, then he would've instructed Luceno to write Darth Plagueis differently.

    There are hints that Palpatine knows in the films. In TPM, he tells Anakin he'll be watching his career closely (with an evil smile). In ROTS, he tells Anakin that the Jedi need him even more than he knows (which implies that he and the Jedi know he's the Chosen One but Anakin doesn't; in The Clone Wars it's revealed that Anakin knows that he's the Chosen One, but he doesn't believe it). The "problem" Lucas has with Palpatine is that he has no confidantes, so we never get to hear his plans. We can only infer what his plans are. The reason I put problem in quotes above is that I actually think this is an asset to the films. It allows the audience to speculate about what Palpatine is up to, and it makes him seem ominous and mysterious.
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  2. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Feb 24, 2015

    I don't see why Mace's death should have anything to do with Palpatine's plan to subvert the prophecy.
  3. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Mar 20, 2013

    If Palpatine was really at risk of being killed by Mace, then that would make Palpatine an idiot because he set up their confrontation in the first place. Palpatine wouldn't set up a confrontation that he was likely to lose. If Palpatine didn't let Mace win the duel or know that Anakin was coming at just that moment, that again would mean that Palpatine is an idiot because he was only saved by chance. Since Palpatine isn't an idiot, then that must mean that he orchestrated the duel so that his life wasn't really in danger, including when he pretends to become too weak to fight back. This explains why Palpatine is quickly able to burst back to life the instant Mace is disarmed by Anakin; he was faking it all along. Also, if Mace could kill Palpatine, then it would undercut the prophecy since Mace would be eradicating the Sith, making him the Chosen One and not Anakin.

    Mace, specifically, didn't have to die. That's not specifically part of the prophecy, but Mace plays a part in Palpatine's attempt to subvert the prophecy. He's the lever that Palpatine pushes to trick Anakin into accepting the dark side. Palpatine's plan is for the Jedi to come arrest him, then he would piss one of them off and convince one of them that he was too dangerous to be left alive. Mace ended up being that guy. Palpatine then played weak, knowing that Anakin would protect him. After Anakin interfered, Palpatine then killed Mace. He needed to kill Mace at that point because Mace's death made it impossible for Anakin to return to the Jedi order. The Jedi order would've considered him a traitor for killing Mace. So, Mace's death helps convince Anakin to ally himself with Palpatine. The Jedi won't take him back, they might even kill him for being a traitor (he doesn't totally trust them anymore), and Palpatine is willing to save Padme's life. So, in Palpatine's scheme, Mace (or some other Jedi) had to die so that Anakin would be complicit in that Jedi's death.
  4. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    Mace being powerful enough to kill Palpatine wouldn't necessarily undercut the prophecy as long as the Force always brought additional factors into play to ensure that he didn't actually do it.
  5. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Mar 20, 2013

    I basically agree with this. In fact, Palpatine may be depending on the idea that Anakin is that additional factor that will prevent Mace from being able to do it.

    My view is that either Palpatine let Mace win their saber fight right when he did or that he knew (had a vision) that Anakin would enter his chambers right after Mace disarmed him. The 2nd scenario would mean that Mace won the sword fight fair and square; Palpatine just knew that Anakin would arrive at the exact moment that Mace wins it. In either case, Palpatine must have some prior knowledge before the fight that he would end up safe because if he didn't have prior knowledge that would mean that he's an idiot to orchestrate a duel that could likely end in his death.

    If Mace won their saber duel fair and square, then that means that Palpatine was only faking weakness when he was repelling him with Force lightning and then says he's too weak to keep on doing that.
  6. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    Personally I think Palpatine just thought he was powerful enough to beat anyone he wanted. He was wrong, but it just so happened that Anakin turned up in the nick of time.

    I've never really been a fan of the idea that Palpatine orchestrated every minute detail of the grand plan to take control of the galaxy. He had an overarching plan, but sometimes he had to think on his feet and other times he was assisted by luck / fate / the Force, as in this instance.
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  7. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Mar 20, 2013
    Yeah, that means that Palpatine was kind of dumb, but I certainly think that's a legit interpretation. I prefer the idea that the Force intervened rather than plain luck. Actually I prefer the puppet master Palpatine interpretation myself, but between luck and the Force intervening, I prefer the Forces' intervention. Getting lucky just seems too convenient for me. If the Force intervened, then the question is -- why would the Force intervene of Palpatine's behalf? Some people think that balancing the Force means getting rid of all the Sith and the Jedi, and that Luke is new beginning who will take a 3rd path -- not the traditional Jedi path from the PT. So, maybe this is why.

    Another option could be that Palpatine really, really believed that the Chosen One prophecy was true. If he really believed it, then he'd risk confronting someone just as powerful as he is, since as you point out the Force wouldn't let anyone else do what the Chosen One is supposed to do. So, basically, Palpatine is thinking: "Mace is not the Chosen, so he can't kill me. I don't know what will prevent him from killing me, but something will."

    After Mace is dead, Palpatine thinks to himself: "Well, that's ironic. What prevented Mace from killing me was the Chosen One himself. Gosh, I really have the Chosen One wrapped around my finger! Being evil is great!"
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  8. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    I don't think he was dumb but he was plenty arrogant. He thought he had it all over Yoda, so why not Mace too?

    I think that the Force intervened, but not because it favoured Palpatine. Rather because it had in mind a bigger picture, which the destruction of the Sith at that time wasn't a part of. To be honest, I think that this type of discussion is kind of why the prophecy isn't such a great idea, but it's what we've got, so I guess all we can do is interpret it as best we can.
  9. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Feb 24, 2015

    Did Yoda's failed attempt to kill Palpatine play a part in the latter's schemes as well?
  10. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Mar 20, 2013

    At that point, I think Palpatine believes he's already won. Palpatine is in a different position, since there is more than 1 Sith. So, at that point, Yoda could kill Palpatine and not fulfill the prophecy. Before, killing Palpatine = destroying the Sith, because there is only 1 Sith. After Anakin becomes Vader, destroying the Sith = killing Palpatine and Vader.

    That's actually why I think Palpatine tries to flee Yoda. Palpatine needed that confrontation with Mace to turn Anakin into a Sith. He doesn't need to fight Yoda. Yoda represents a threat to him, so he's not above just trying to get away from Yoda, but when Yoda forces him to fight him, Palpatine is still cocky. He says: "You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." So, Palpatine is basically saying: "Even if you kill me, you won't beat me because Vader will live on as a Sith after I die."

    Palpatine's main goal seems to be the Sith regaining and keeping control. He even seems to accept that Vader will kill him (but remain a Sith afterwards). That's why he's happy when he says: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." As a Sith, once Vader can kill Palpatine, he will kill Palpatine, but Palpatine accepts this. His main goals are to wipe out the Jedi and for the Sith to rule the galaxy forever.
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Apr 13, 2011

    I agree with the notion that Palpatine revealing his identity to Anakin was to lure Mace and the Jedi into that exact confrontation. The small detail I disagree on is that he springs this trap because of Anakin's resistance to his seduction efforts. IMO (and also according to others) Palpatine has been planning for this confrontation since before he started the major part of his seduction of Anakin. It doesn't effect your argument much, but I get the impression that Palpatine thought from the start the Jedi would have to push Anakin too far for his turn to take place. It's all intertwined in Anakin's seduction;
    - Anakin's fear for himself, his wife, and friends, mainly because of the war - plus his premonitions.
    - Anakin's conflicted political views that partially support what Palpatine is trying to set up.
    - Anakin's loyalty to people, not principles.
    - His ambition - "Ever since I've known you, you have been searching for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi."
    - His chosen one status and unconventionality putting him at odds with the Jedi. And his gradual loss of faith in the Jedi as a whole.
    - Finally, as you've said, the confrontation with Mace in Palpatine's office blurs the lines between each order for Anakin, and because they look morally equivalent, Anakin greedily sides with whoever can serve him best.
    - It should also be noted that the parallels between the Sith and the Jedi run deep in all six films, so it makes Anakin's mindset more believable.

    I just wanted to say I love how this moment is shot, and the timing of the music. It really shows the situation from Anakin's point of view as he walks in. With the music and all it quite effectively sets the stage.

    I like that Palpatine is really emphasising that Anakin is making a choice here. Between Mace (The Jedi) and Palpatine (The Sith, but more Padme and himself). While Palpatine forces Anakin's hand, and turns Anakin's desire for Palpatine to remain alive into betraying the Jedi with the murder of a Master, I think deep down Anakin was essentially making this decision himself. This significance I do prefer to Anakin entirely being tricked.

    My interpretation is similar to yours, but maybe a little closer to the idea Palpatine was just overconfident, and powerful enough to stall with Mace. But yes, he knew Anakin was coming.

    I wish they had left in the film more of Mace's insults to Palpatine from the script. It makes it far more clear that Mace was letting his hatred for Sidious effect his judgement, and influence him acting out of fear for the Order in the heat of the moment.

    It seems likely.

    Agreed, if he thought Anakin wasn't going to help he would have gone quietly.

    I think he was pretty arrogant and sure of his victory, but I wouldn't say Palpatine was confident that he was in no danger. He could defeat Mace in an all-out fight I think, but it is just testament to his destructive nature that he would put himself in this situation, and also purposely increase the strength of the lighting when it arcs back on him. On that subject, I think that his appearance change was partly lightning damage, but essentially just a reveal of his true form that came out from both the strain of using the lightning eroding the mask, and damage. I agree that he wanted it to happen to partially justify the purge. Also, I found it curious when you later said he was reverting back to a form he previously had. While I agree this disfigured form is what he really looks like, I don't think he looked that way earlier in his life. More that it reflects the corruption within that he is no longer trying to hide, and this has brought him to a form less-human than he has ever looked.

    I was wondering about this line...
    Are you implying that Palpatine knew Padme would die if Anakin turned? I don't see that myself, if this is what you mean. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy like you say, Anakin's actions bring about the metaphorical death of Anakin and cause Padme to lose the will to live. But I don't think Sidious foresaw that necessarily, hard to say for sure. Nevertheless, it is pretty mysterious (perhaps suspicious) how Palpatine knows she has died - "It seems in your anger, you killed her."
    I love the final irony that Anakin's fate as Vader is sealed by something that isn't true - technically his force-choke didn't kill Padme.

    Again, I will try and add some more on this tomorrow.
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  12. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Mar 20, 2013
    I think more what I meant here is that Palpatine would have been fine if Anakin had turned during the Opera scene or when he reveals himself, but he always had the confrontation as a plan B.

    Yeah, I see the same motivations for Anakin's turn. Saving Padme is his strongest motivating factor, but there are tons of other things pushing him to turn also.

    Just as I was reading this part of your post, I heard that music in my head. It's really epic!

    Really there are many different ways that Palpatine could've been pretty certain he'd come out alive. I have my own view, but I think any of these work:

    1. He knows that Anakin will return and has a vague sense of when he will return, and he's more powerful than Mace, so he can hold him off until then.
    2. He has a vision that just as Mace is defeating him in the Saber duel Anakin will enter his offer, and so, while he does lose the saber duel, he doesn't care because he knows Anakin will be there to protect him.
    3. He has absolute faith in the Chosen One prophecy, so he knows that Mace can't kill him because Mace is not the Chosen One.

    In any of these cases, however, Palpatine must know (through precognition) that Anakin will return. It would be pointless for him to stage the duel if he didn't know that Anakin would return.

    Yeah, I somewhat agree. For Anakin's arc, it might help provide extra motivation, but leaving out more makes interpreting the scene more interesting.

    Just from Jackson's performance it seems he's not making a rational decision. He's acting out of anger. A few minutes earlier, Mace wanted to arrest Palpatine. Palpatine hasn't gained any greater influence over the courts and the senate during their duel. Mace is just rationalizing when he says: "He's too dangerous to be left alive. He controls the courts and the senate." He's providing a false justification so that he can act on his anger.

    Because there's so little dialogue, you can only make sense of Mace's motives by thinking about how he changes during the scene. So, that requires the audience to fill in the gaps, but I think once you look at the scene, it's pretty undeniable: Palpatine has no more control over the courts and the senate after the duel as before it, so Mace must really be acting in anger.

    That's what I love about Star Wars and ROTS in particular. It doesn't tell you all of the character's motivations. It makes you figure out what's motivating them, but it still gives you enough hints so that you can figure it out.

    That's also one reason I enjoy the Chosen One prophecy. Each character knows about it, has a different interpretation of it, and has to factor it into his/her strategy for dealing with the opposing side. Mace seems very skeptical of it, and Palpatine may even know this about Mace. He's not too quiet about his skepticism. If Mace had trusted the prophecy more, he may not have gone in there trying to kill Palpatine himself. He may have recognized that that was Anakin's role. Also, if Palpatine knew about Mace's skepticism, he may have used that to his advantage. Palpatine knew that almost every Jedi was off-world. He pretty much knew that Mace would be the guy leading the arrest posse, and if he knew that Mace was skeptical, then that would mean it was more likely that Mace would try to kill him on his own, which serves Palpatine's plan perfectly.

    All these speculations about Mace and Palpatine arise because we as viewers can speculate about how they are responding to the prophecy. It gives ROTS a much deeper layer of complexity.

    Yes, I agree that Palpatine would be willing to put himself at some risk because he has so much to gain -- a great new apprentice, making the Chosen One his ally, and gaining justification for the Jedi purge. At the same time, he had to be pretty confident that he'd survive. He was in no rush because he controlled the situation. He was the one who revealed Grievious's location. He could've just let the war keep going and waited for a better opportunity to turn Anakin and gain justification for the Purge. Since he didn't do that, you have to assume that Palpatine thought he was pretty likely to survive the scheme he cooked up.

    And, again, even if he was over-confident about beating Mace, he may have foreseen that Anakin would enter just as Mace disarmed him, thus neutralizing the threat of Mace.

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  13. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Apr 13, 2011
    I get ya. I think Palpatine knew Anakin too well, and thought the moment would eventually come along when Anakin was ready.

    I think the only time Palpatine is ironically flat-out wrong about Anakin/Vader is in ROTJ when he fails to sense Anakin's coming reawakening because of Luke. Luke is Palpatine's blind-spot, perhaps an inverse "shatterpoint" in Vader from Palpatine's point of view.

    Yes, I've read a lot of your posts on it. I don't think the specific nature of his actual turn scene writes over the complexity of his progressive fall, despite what detractors have argued.

    Lol. I like that the music goes silent for a bit while the three of them argue. Just the sound effects, dialogue, and the symbolic thunder heard in the background. Nevertheless, ROTS is my favourite soundtrack of any movie.

    Smart list. I think also Anakin was getting pretty powerful (and in quite a state of fear) at this point so his presence would be detectable to Palpatine as he approached the office.

    Agreed, good points.


    Yeah, and also Lucas stated Mace only changed his mind about arresting him after the lightning. So Mace's more sarcastic second attempt - "You are under arrest, my Lord." - was still a sincere attempt to take him away. So if Anakin happened not to show up, Palpatine still had the option of going "peacefully".

    Ah okay, sorry. Still, it is pretty mysterious how Palpatine knows of her death so fast.
    And I have thought of his dialogue "It seems in your anger you killed her." as a pov truth since '05.
    Anakin didn't physically kill her; but turning to the darkside, enslaving the galaxy, breaking her heart, and metaphorically killing himself ironically did (arguably through symbiosis).
    Yeah the ending is pretty sad. Enhances the whole saga.

    And I didn't think you could find Palpatine's end in ROTJ more fitting than it already was pre-PT. :p


    Yes, Palpatine's mask in the PT is more than just physical, he is shrouded from the Jedi by the dark side. Plus their power is waning, according to Mace and Yoda.

    As you are aware, (and if anyone else is reading) I went into this a fair bit on my Palpatine ROTS-script analysis here.

    His connection to Anakin is pretty strong, both from Palpatine's natural power level, and Anakin having trusted him for 13 years.

    Palpatine's hesitation before Mace kicks him, that you pointed out from the novelisation, is fairly strong evidence. And there is certainly enough in the films (particularly ROTJ) that people arguing against Palpatine's premonition seem to treat as if it was from a different series.


    Yeah, it's deceptive that he appears closer to death in this scene, even saying in the script "I can't... I give up. Help me. I am weak... I am too weak. Don't kill me. I give up. I'm dying. I can't hold on any longer. " making Anakin more sympathetic as you say.
    It's kind of a paradox though, during Anakin's pledge Anakin looks away in disgust or horror. It reinforces he is selling his soul, taking the cowards way out in siding with the devil.

    Valid argument. It's cool to get all these reminders of the novelisation, I read it years ago. Might give it another read some time.

    Mace's blindness to Anakin's coming betrayal is a great mirror to the Emperor's complacence at the end of ROTJ.

    Again, Palpatine trusting Anakin is the downfall of both Orders respectively at the end of each trilogy, (as I've just noticed you wrote next).

    Well put.

    I think Lucas stating Mace won the duel was just a very simplified version of what is going on in these scenes, to emphasise that morally Mace should still have arrested Palpatine. Lucas changes his mind so much that I agree the movies really leave themselves open to a lot of interpretation intentionally.

    Agreed, and the prequels really say a lot more than Lucas at times lets on.
    I love that complexity about ROTS, people who find this film shallow and all about spectacle are not paying close enough attention.

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  14. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Feb 24, 2015
    Would there have been any further consequences for the remaining Jedi if Yoda had killed Papatine? I cannot see the majority of the Senate meekly accepting such an action.
  15. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Nov 20, 2012
    Yoda was being irrational it would seem.
  16. Samuel Coats

    Samuel Coats Jedi Youngling

    Apr 7, 2016
    Why doesn't Mace think about the prophecy? Why does HE think that he could kill Palpatine?
  17. Valiowk

    Valiowk Chosen One star 6

    Apr 23, 2000
    I've always wondered whether the destruction of the Jedi order was part, but not the entirety of the prophecy, a prophecy that in the form the Jedi had may have been incomplete (analogous to how the version of the prophecy that Voldemort has in Harry Potter is initially incomplete). The reason for this thought is that the destruction of the Jedi order is an enormous event that feels far too large to be something that is merely incidental to fulfilling the prophecy. It's also clear that by the era of TPM the Jedi order was not the pure organisation it could have been and it would not be easy to reverse the way the Jedi order has been undermined, even in the absence of the Sith. Also, this would provide a reason why Anakin has to fall to the dark side in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled. In this sense there is a symmetry - the Jedi, who are supposed to represent good, are doing things that have a bad influence, even if it is unintentional, while the Sith, who are bad, are playing with the ability to control life, which is supposed to be something pure and good. In either circumstance, what's happening is bad, because the wrong party is doing the wrong thing (a way to interpret Lucas' sentence "If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray"?) and the clear line between good and bad has been eroded. However, you are definitely correct that a Force that wills the destruction of a group of people whose intention was simply to do good and who have not strayed far from the morals that guide normal people is a cruel Force, even if it is simply trying to wipe the slate clean, and I can understand why others would have difficulty believing in such a Force. That being the case, I like the explanation you present here even if I'm not sure I'm completely convinced by it, because it does provide a kinder way to imagine the Force, and also gets rid of the pesky issue of an incomplete prophecy (although admittedly it would make Yoda's words "a prophecy that misread might have been" a little extraneous). :)

    Probably the most frustrating thing for me when seeking to understand the prophecy was the fact that elements of the version of the prophecy that Lucas gives are stated in RotS, but indirectly/in paraphrase! The audience never sees the version of the prophecy available to the Jedi order, nor whether it is actually true that the Sith had discovered how to control midichlorians, as described by Palpatine. A consequence of this is that I was led to believe that what was claimed wasn't true, because it was shown in paraphrase instead of directly, and we all know how paraphrase is a useful way to state something untrue. ;) While I understand that this may have been due to Lucas' desire to create a more open story, it does make it more frustrating when trying to decide on a way to interpret the prophecy.

    I think parts of Star Wars fandom demand too much of Lucas when he says he has the story planned out. As an amateur fiction writer myself, I write short "story notes" when I get ideas for stories that I would like to write in the future, but do not have the time or the correct frame of mind to flesh out at present. Some of these "story notes" are incredibly short and just consist of the main ideas that I would like to work into the story in future - for example, the "story note" for a piece of historical fiction that ended up spanning forty scenes simply consisted pretty much of the words "scenes in the life of historical figure XXX" and one particular scene that I had envisioned in greater detail. Did I know that I was going to write some of the other scenes that appeared? Yes, because some of those other scenes were important scenes in the life of that figure and there was no way I could have left them out. Did I know that I was going to write the scenes from the perspective of the historical figure's wife? No. Some details really only appear when one goes into a much greater level of detail in writing. Did I consider the story somewhat planned out anyway? Sort of, depending on how you want to define planned out at different times. So I can understand that Lucas knew that he had a story to tell even though he hadn't completely worked out the details.
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  18. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 21, 2015

    Writer here. Me and a buddy are making a visual novel, and yes,all of what you say is true.

    It's funny because me and my friend have a really good story and have been planning but at the same time, making it up as we go.

    Hell, we got eight pages in 2 weeks for the descriptons of the characters. And most of that was on the spot as we went.
  19. mihaitzateo

    mihaitzateo Jedi Knight star 3

    Oct 5, 2015
    Actually,I do not agree with the OP point of view considering this matter.
    Palpatine is saved from a certain death,by Anakin.
    Mace is very likely strongest Force user,with a light saber in his hand,ever.
    No one could have beat Mace,not even Master Yoda.
    Sidious is actually fearing Mace . And Mace could have killed Anakin easy mode,but Mace
    trusts Anakin and this is doom.
    In the cartoons "The clone wars " - season III - episode 15, The father tries to persuade Anakin to stay on the planet Mortis,because he is seeing Anakin too strong attachment to his wife,which will cause Anakin to do what he will.
    What is telling The father to Anakin, when Anakin is leaving Mortis and is refusing to stay there?
    "Leave and your selfishness shall hunt you and the Galaxy"

    And in episode 17 The father tells to Anakin:
    "And now I die ,my heart broken,knowing the role you will play".
    Anakin actually is helping to destroy almost the whole Jedi order.
    Is Qui Gon,Master Yoda , Obi Wan and Luke who are actually stopping the Siths.
    Obi Wan is the one who cripples bad Vader/Anakin.
    If Obi Wan would not have crippled Anakin,you do not think Anakin would have killed Sidious and would have became strongest Sith Lord ever ?
    Why Qui Gon ? Because Qui Gon discovers the secret of true immortality ; and Obi Wan is letting himself killed by Anakin/Vader to convince Vader/Anakin that he can also become immortal if he turns back to the light side.
  20. mackmitchell94

    mackmitchell94 Jedi Knight

    Jan 15, 2016
    Darth nerdling, I enjoyed reading your post about the prophecy of the chosen one. I thought I knew all there was to know about that subject but your post made me think of it in a different way. I feel Palpatine was definitely planning to turn Anakin since the TPM. He believed the only way he could defeat the prophecy was to create a paradox, turn Anakin into a sith so that even if Anakin kills him the sith will still rule because as you pointed out, it was believed (by both Jedi and sith) that once someone turns to the dark side they can never return to the light as the dark would consume them. When Palpatine successfully turned Anakin, he assumed he had defeated the prophecy and that the sith would rule forever. However as Luke says to Palpatine in ROTJ, his overconfidence is his weakness. Palpatine is overconfident that everything will go according to his plans and in the saga there are times where he's caught off guard/surprised by events: in TPM when Padme decides to go back to naboo to fight for her people, Palps is dumbfounded. He says "this is an unexpected move for her, it's too aggressive". I've always thought in ROTS when Palpatine fights the Jedi he actaully underestimates how powerful Mace is and is caught off guard at first, however I do believe he throws the fight eventually when he can sense Anakins presence growing nearer. Mace also undoubtedly underestimated just how powerful Sidious was and I think this also plays into his decision to kill Palpatine instead of arresting him. Mace realizes that Palpatine is too dangerous to be kept alive, if he doesn't kill Palpatine, palps would just turn the situation to his advantage and use the arrest to garner sympathy from the senate and get even more power over them while the Jedi would just look even more incriminating eventually making it easier for Palpatine to justify their elimination.I disagree with your point about Mace becoming angry and wanting to kill Palpatine. It was more than that, Mace was thinking about the survival of the republic and Jedi, he actually realizes how important this moment is, that this is a moment in which the sith can be defeated once and for all, he realizes that the only way the republic could survive is with Palpatines death. However he makes a fatal mistake, he ignores the prophecy and he ignores Anakin and how it's HIS destiny to destroy the sith, this decision is what dooms Mace and the Jedi in general. I think it's brilliant how maces decision speaks volumes of the Jedi and why they fell. The reason the Jedi failed is because they lost faith in the prophecy and in Anakin Skywalker, the scene where Obi, Mace, and Yoda are talking on the gunship is proof of this. This adds validity to the prophecy and proves how important it is to the story. Palpatine eventually starts ignoring the prophecy as well as he grows overconfident that his paradox had defeated the prophecy especially after Anakin is injured and forced to rely on a life support suit. He underestimates Anakin and thinks how could he ever kill me now that he's in that suit, all I have to do is electrocute him and he's a goner, I can kill him anytime. This is why Palpatine wants to find a stronger apprentice than Vader, one that poses more of a threat to him. This is why he wants Luke to become his apprentice, however Luke like his mother padme somehow has the ability to elude palpatines senses. When Vader goes to tell palpatine of the shuttle landing on the moon of endor, palpatine is suprised to learn that Luke was also on the shuttle, Vader: "my son is with them" Palpatine: "are u sure?" Vader: "I felt him my master" Palpatine: "strange that I did not". I don't know whats the significance of palps not being able to sense Luke but its strange indeed. Anyways overconfidence was Palpatines downfall as he underestimated how much anakin cared for his family.
  21. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 15, 2015
    After watching TFA I have come to this conclusion. Anakin was not the Chosen One. Here me out. Was it not Yoda who warned the Prophesy was maybe misread?

    Anakin was the Sith'ari. Look at Snoke & the KOR. They are everything Sith except name.
    Vader killed the last Sith now there back stronger than ever sans name.

    Rey is the Chosen One.
  22. ThisHurricane

    ThisHurricane Jedi Knight star 3

    Mar 9, 2015
    I don't understand why people always bring up the Yoda quote. Lucas has said Anakin is the chosen one.
  23. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 15, 2015
    Anakin did archive 1 goal
    Anakin only achieved 1/2 of the Prophesy. He destroyed the Sith. He did NOT bring balance 2 the Force.

    He COULD be the Sith'ari. He is definitely not the Chosen 1.
  24. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Mar 20, 2013

    Here's my perspective on this. It simply doesn't matter that they've made TFA. This was Lucas's vision. From the perspective of 1 - 6, Anakin fulfilled the prophecy. If someone else wrote a followup to LOTR that revealed that the ring wasn't destroyed at the end of LOTR and that Sauron was still a threat, I would consider that a different universe or elseworld story. Someone else can't come in and alter the meaning of Tolkien's story. In the same way, someone else can't alter the meaning of Lucas's story.

    Now, Disney says it recognizes 1 - 6 and TCW as canon. (Will they continue to 10 years from now? Who knows?) That means that they are respecting the Lucas' interpretation for the Chosen One prophecy.

    Then, there's what's happening in Ep. 7 +. Can you interpret that Anakin didn't fulfill the prophecy? Yes. Evil has returned to the universe. So, you can argue that. However, you can also argue that Anakin fulfilling the prophecy wasn't meant to achieve that. Lucas has never said that balancing the Force = no evil in the universe and everyone would be hugging Ewoks forever. Lucas has made it clear that his interpretation of balancing the Force = the destruction of the Sith. In fact, this is said 3 times in the films, most memorably by Obi-Wan: "You were the Chosen One. It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them, bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness." So, bringing balance to the Force = destroying the Sith. Anakin does this. He kills Palpatine and returns to the light side. No more Sith.

    If you want to take it even further, it is strongly implied that the Sith initially imbalanced the Force by trying to impose their will on it by attempting to create life. The Force responded to this by creating Anakin, the Chosen One. Anakin then went on to destroy those Sith who created the imbalance. When that particular Sith line ceased to exist, balance was restored.

    So, by this definition, this does not even mean that Anakin would destroy the Sith forever, rather that Anakin would only destroy the Sith who created the imbalance in the first place. Consequently, there can be future imbalances in the Force, especially those not produced by the Sith.

    It also seems Disney is respecting this idea. Snoke is not a Sith. He has a new alignment. He was around when during the PT/OT but sat on the sidelines watching, not aligned with the Sith or the Jedi.

    Also, if you're thinking that balancing the Force = forever peace and no darkness in the galaxy, well I think that will never occur in the Disneyverse. I don't think Disney will ever end Star Wars. Once Snoke is defeated, there will be new evil threats that emerge. For that reason, there can never be a Chosen One if you define the Chosen the way that you do since darkness will never be defeated forever.
    Ezon Pin, mikeximus and Valiowk like this.
  25. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

    Apr 24, 2013
    Just a fly-by to say that I always feel that all is right with the world when this thread reawakens:p
    Darth Nerdling likes this.