main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The cinematography of The Force Awakens - Based on the teaser trailer

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by ray243, Nov 28, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    True enough, and honestly, if people responded to the film, none of that stuff would have mattered. Which I think helps the overall point, which is that while aesthetics are important in film, if a movie isn't engaging the audience, it's all for naught. Cinematography and art direction are tools to elicit an emotional response, and if the response is achieved, the tools have done their job.

    Agreed 100%.
     
    TKT, TK327, BigAl6ft6 and 2 others like this.
  2. Scummy_and_Villainous

    Scummy_and_Villainous Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 13, 2013
    Trendy is very easy. Timeless, not so much. To be trendy is to copy. To be timeless is to.... well... that's kind of a nebulous thing that one doesn't come to truly realize until many years later.
     
  3. Scummy_and_Villainous

    Scummy_and_Villainous Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 13, 2013
    It's that soft, diffused lighting that The Empire Strikes Back has that really sets it apart.
     
    TKT, Red_Leader_313 and AndyLGR like this.
  4. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    Note too how much of the lighting comes from in-universe sources, e.g. the Falcon cockpit and the carbon freezing chamber. Not only is it visually striking, it also makes the characters seem to really exist within the universe.
     
  5. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 26, 2006

    I just do not agree that the "classical" look has been captured in the teaser. In regards to Star Wars, I find it crucial for the camera to present the action rather than being part of the action. The issue I have is I do not think there is a good enough counter-argument that allowing the camera to be part of the action agrees with the idea of Star Wars as a space opera. I do not think that such modern techniques are "operatic" in any way.

    The question I want an answer to is to what extend can you say that techniques like shakey-cam can be operatic? That is a question that have yet to be answered by your side.

    In addition to the notion that we either accept the stylistic choice of Abrams or have no modern Star Wars film being made by any director, I think you are presenting a false dichotomy. There are a number of directors out there that avoid making the camera part of the action, directors who have done sci-fi films. Duncan Jones's Moon, Cuaron's Gravity and Nolan's Interstellar are movies that show you it is possible to make movies without tricks like shakey-cam. Edwards is also another director that let the visual speak for themselves as opposed to making it part of the action. Even his POV shot in Godzilla is generally stable and not shakey.
     
  6. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I'd agree with that. There's a debate to be had as to which style better suits Star Wars I suppose... but ultimately it has to be seen holistically. Sometimes the visual style can make a film 'better', or can elevate a film beyond its genre e.g. 2001:ASO, Star Wars, Alien, Bladerunner etc. But ultimately I think you have to have a good story that audiences can respond to.
     
    TKT, Rookhelm, TK327 and 3 others like this.
  7. Red_Leader_313

    Red_Leader_313 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2014

    I see your point, but I am still relatively unclear on your equation that Star Wars is a "space opera" and therefore needs to be filmed with a "theatrical" style.

    I have heard the term thrown around in reference to Star Wars over the years, but never equated it to a narrow, specific cinematic style because the term refers to the genre and the execution of the writing: the melodramatic beats, the big adventure story, the romantic incorporation of old archetypes, etc. (That is not to say that EVERY style would be appropriate, but the relatively small objections to the shots in the trailer aren't deviating from an appropriate style.) More important than maintaining an exclusive vocabulary of shots is the execution of a consistent tone - which, based on the 8 shots we've seen, I think Abrams has done - especially because the so-called "deviating" shots aren't violating the tone at all.

    Furthermore, I think when you look more closely at what separates a "space opera" from something like Interstellar, Gravity, or Moon, you'll see that the style of storytelling in Star Wars is actually MORE appropriate to be filmed through a more dramatic style simply because the large beats of the story require it.

    Based on what you said, it seems as though you're argument is resting on this idea that "operas" are stories often performed on a stage, and therefore Star Wars should be shot like a play - which is based on a misunderstanding of what "space opera" means in the first place.

    Also, it's strange that you would bring up Gravity as an example of making the camera not a part of the action, when, out of all the movies I have seen in the past ten years, Gravity is perhaps the boldest example of the camera being "part of the action." If you're advocating for Star Wars to be shot in a series of lingering, 5-10 minute long takes, then again, I would question your understanding of cinematic style in the first place.

    Actually, the same thing goes for bringing up someone like Nolan - there are plenty of handheld shots in Interstellar, and his compositions are often deliberately geometric, showing a very distinct visual flare, which is, to my understanding, something that you don't want to see in Star Wars. (Nor would I want Nolan's idiotic, clinical, "more complicated = better" sort of mentality infecting the style of narrative and tone we all know and love.)
     
  8. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 26, 2006

    I think a space opera is very much like an epic, you need the camera to show the biggest possible action sequence. Your sets ( be it real or digital) are supposed to look massive and your camera needs to be stable enough to show how the relatively small characters interact with the much bigger backdrop of the scene.

    How do you use a camera to convey a "big" scene? Generally, you would use wide, steady shots as opposed to shakey, close up shots for the action sequences at the very least. Such camerawork generally convey a better sense of scale. Shakey cam are mostly used to communicate a more "personal" sequences, whereby your focus to to show what is it like to be on the ground. You want to use shakey-cam to show the face of battle as opposed to the classical narrative of massive armies clashing against each other.

    Star Wars has always been about creating massive battle sequences, with countless amount of soldiers and spaceships fighting each other. It's not about what is it like to be a soldier at the frontline, it is about grand heroic figures saving the day. It's a story about the big people and big figures in history as opposed to the common Joe who fought in the trenches.
     
    darth ladnar likes this.
  9. JediKnightWax

    JediKnightWax Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    It's going to make a lot of people sick when they see it in 3D.
     
  10. Caffeine_Force

    Caffeine_Force Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2014
    I don't know if I agree with the premise of that last post. I think Star Wars battles are very much about being "on the front line," just look at all the in-cockpit shots during any space battle, or on Hoth, or on the speeders on Endor. The battles all have a very personal feel.
     
  11. ray243

    ray243 Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 26, 2006

    I don't think 3D matters as much because fundamentally, the cinematography is still going to be same as a 2D film unless you specifically shot it as a 3D film. Most "3D" movies are mostly ad-hoc conversions of the 2D version.




    Yes, but the battle sequence has never been about the story of the lowly rebel grunt. It's about fighter pilots ( which is basically the modern day versions of knights) managing to save the entire day with a lucky shot. It's not about the average rebels that fought in the trenches at Hoth, it's about Luke taking down the AT-AT.

    The battle in the Clone Wars is not really about how is it like to be clone, it's about the Jedi knights leading them into battle.

    Star Wars is essentially the same as epic fantasy movies like Lord of the Rings, where it is about heroic figures leading armies into battle, rather than a story about the life of a lowly soldier fighting his own personal war as opposed to being the hero who decided the course of the battle.

    The films that tend to use things like shakey-cam often tends to be stories about the grunts who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, "realistic" action sequence in crime or gritty spy movies as opposed to grand epics.
     
    d. Jones and darth ladnar like this.
  12. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014

    Well, I can't agree about the camera not being part of the action in Star Wars films. The camera is very active in the trench scenes (particularly the camera that enters the trench). And of course in ROTJ, the camera is very active in the Death Star attack.
     
  13. stellarmagic01

    stellarmagic01 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    So what about when a stormtrooper is a POV character? Wouldn't that make shaky cam not only sensible but the 'correct' choice for a sequence where one soldier is in personal danger?
     
    TKT and Artoo-Dion like this.
  14. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013




    We've been talking about how well the trailer's stormtrooper shots and the loop-d-loop shot of the Millennium Falcon mesh with the visual continuity of the Saga. I personally have the feeling that the Falcon shot breaks too strongly with the visual style of the Saga. The main reason I feel it doesn't match the rest of Saga is that, I would argue, the shot far more intensely makes the viewer aware of the camera than any shot in the Saga. I also feel that it doesn't match in two other ways. 1) It takes a pretty simply flying maneuver by the Falcon (which can be seen in the bottom video showing the same shot of Falcon's path but with the camera in a fixed position) and makes it unnecessarily complex and confusing with the multiple flips of the camera which aren't even totally in synch with the pitch of the Falcon. 2) It breaks with the Saga's approach to action sequences, one that mostly relies on fixed shots, along with pans, tilts, and smooth tracking shots from beside a ship (like the trailer's X-wing shot), or smooth tracking shots from behind a space ship or sometimes from in front a ship.

    So, my question is -- can anyone here think of a shot from the Saga that makes the viewer so aware of the camera (either because of excessive camera movement -- spinning, jostling, shaking, etc. -- or because it doesn't keep the ship in a stable position in the frame); a shot from the Saga that takes a simple movement by a ship and makes it so complex, confusing, (possibly more exciting?); a shot from the Saga that also breaks so much with fixed shot, pan, tilt, smooth tracking shots that dominate the Saga?




    (BTW I wouldn't say that the altered Falcon shot from a fixed camera position is a good way to fix JJ's shot. From a fixed position, it's clear that the Falcon just does one big long boring loop that doesn't seem to suit combat at all. There are many ways the shot could be made to conform more closely with the Saga film aesthetic IMO. The simplest would be to give the Falcon a more exciting flight path like those the Falcon takes in the asteroid belt, but there other solutions; I think even a tracking shot from behind might work, if it kept the Falcon's position in the frame relatively stable.)
     
  15. Rookhelm

    Rookhelm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2014
    If you're comparing personal shots of soldiers with grand armies fighting, I would say Lucas used a mix of both.

    We certainly got lots of wide angle action scenes, but they are equally intercut with our heroes (not the lowly grunts) doing what they do. Luke shooting, Lando piloting, Han hotwiring the door.

    Sometimes we DO see lowly grunts from time to time...the wingmen, the ewoks, the Red Leaders.

    Lord of the Rings did similar things. It certainly is the epitome of wide epic army vs army action shots. But we got to see up close and personal what Aragorn and Legolas were doing.

    About that Falcon shot in the trailer for a moment. My wife was having a hard time figuring out what it was doing. So, I helped her map it out. Then I realized...that shot will make more sense when we see the first half of it in the movie.

    I determined that the Falcon is being chased by those 2 TIEs (think Asteroid Field). So, the part we DON'T see is the Falcon flying along level to the ground, then it swoops up like a Rollercoaster loop, all the way around until it's nose is pointed back to the ground....this is where the trailer shot begins. Instead of completing the loop and continuing the way it was going (like a rollercoaster would), it rotates and pulls up level along the ground in the opposite direction it was going to face the TIEs head on. I think in context of the whole scene, it'll be obvious what is happening and probably won't look so jarring as the shot in the trailer.
     
  16. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Agreed. But check back in 15 years when Disney needs to wring some more cash outta Star Wars but doesn't wanna go full on reboot. I'm expecting a Rancor found footage horror movie circa 2028.
     
    TKT and darth ladnar like this.
  17. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Attack of the Clones has "handheld" VFX shots of the clone / droid battle. There's even a "shaky cam" zoom-in on one of the ships flying away. It's basically right after they escape the arena and we see the Clones attacking. It has been done but it's very quick. However, those elements are there.

    I agree that the stormtrooper shot and the Falcon shot do stretch the visual conventions of Star Wars movies, but it doesn't break it. And check out the shot in the trailer the pan in on the gal on the speeder or the dolly / steadcam behind the lightsaber person. That is some straight smooth classical epic Star Wars camera work.

    I think JJ will bend the style of Star Wars in his way at certain moments but it won't overpower it. That trailer looked more Star Wars than JJ Abrams to me. But I can see JJ Abrams in there. Which it should be, you shouldn't hire JJ Abrams and take away absolutely everything that makes him JJ Abrams. Happy medium.
     
  18. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    I agree that a lot of the shots from the trailer have a strong Saga feel. The Daisy Ridley speeder shot actually seems to combine 2 Saga shots -- the side shot of Leia on her speeder in ROTJ and the shot of Anakin on a speeder in ATOC speeding away into the distance. I think the ATOC clone shots that you mentioned most closely match the trailer stormtrooper shot, but I was more wondering about the trailer Falcon shot. Can you think of a shot from the Saga similar to that one?
     
  19. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Falcon shot? No, not really. But that's where I think you get JJ Abrams distinct style into the movie. Which isn't a bad thing and I don't believe it is going to be "asdfhadjkl; klayljyl;qqy q JJ ABRAMS IN YO FACE!!asf klyjklyajkl" for over 2 hours.

    Actually I'm going to give "Star Trek Into Darkness" a rewatch soon and I think that movie, even if you hate the story, is a decent watch to see how he's going to make Star Wars. It has the traditional kinetic JJ Abrams moments but I'd say that camera in that film is more smooth and "Star Wars"-ian overall.

    There is a distinct visual difference I feel in Abrams work when you compare "MI:3 / Star Trek" to "Super 8 / Star Trek Into Darkness". The latter aren't as extreme as the first two. The Spielberg style visual touches he employed in Super 8 is starting to pop up.

    But once in awhile JJ Abrams will do what he likes to do. Like the Falcon shot. Which is new to the Saga. But I don't think it completely breaks it. Bends it. Bend, bend. But Star Wars, at it's core, is cinematic grand larceny. It steals from all types of genres and films and styles. Now there's JJ.
     
    TKT and darth ladnar like this.
  20. Rookhelm

    Rookhelm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2014
    When the Royal cruiser enters the atmosphere of Coruscant after the opening crawl of ep 2, it rotates. Now, the camera stays steady some of the time, but it rotates a little. Obviously not as jarring or aggressive, and certainly easy to follow, but I don't recall any ships doing that before in the movies. The falcon has flipped and rotated before, but the "plane" of action has always remained level.

    The ep 2 shot flips the plane of action in an interesting way, sorta establishing for the first time in a Star Wars space scene that up is not always up. Also, the pan goes up from the crawl, a first for all the movies.
     
    TKT, darth ladnar and BigAl6ft6 like this.
  21. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    hahaha, yeah, I love the "pan up" in AOTC from the opening crawl. I kinda hope that shows up in the ST (but it certainly won't in Ep. 7, maybe 8) There is always something in each film that will take the conventions of a Star Wars movie and then flip it around or push it further a bit more. One thing you get from watching Star Wars is that the visual style isn't static for each installment but they are more similar than different. But every once in awhile they'll be a little push. I think the Falcon shot is representation of that type of "push". But it won't be that the whole movie.
     
    Bob Octa, JunoSynth and darth ladnar like this.
  22. Rookhelm

    Rookhelm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2014
    The more I think about AOTC, the more examples of unique elements I'm remembering.

    -The pan up from crawl
    -The royal cruiser flipping the scene
    -Digital Yoda, which was used again in ep 3 of course...not a first for an all digital creature, but the new Yoda was big news
    -R2 uses a flashlight...for some reason that sticks out to me...are there flashlights anywhere else? I can't remember
    -The weird zooms in the battle scenes
    -All digital stormtroopers
    -When Dooku and Anakin are lightsaber fighting, there's a few shots that are up in their face. They're just waving colored lights around. i really hate these shots, actually
    -Yoda fighting :)
     
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  23. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    I actually really like those shots because for about 10 seconds Star Wars becomes an abstract art film. The red lightsaber guy is bad, the blue lightsaber guy is good but they all start to kind of merge with Anakin's features taking on the red (bad) light to his face and merging with blue (good), etc. etc. All done in darkness. Because Darth Vader! Or something. Like I said, abstract art film. For 10 seconds. I can dig it.

    But that is an example that each movie the style does take a bit of a leap in it's own direction for a moment or two. Which is what I believe is going to happen in Episode VII. It all looks Star Wars when you string it together but you'll see something distinctive and different in each entry.
     
  24. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    These were the first to come to mind for me. That was actually the first severe break in filming style that ever really stood out to me.
     
    PrometheusCreations and TKT like this.
  25. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I like the scene but are the lightsabers even connecting?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.