Full Series The Clone Wars 7.12 - Victory and Death (SERIES FINALE!) - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Seen a neat post elsewhere that described the "Burying the Dead" track as a lullaby for the clones. They all died thinking they were defending the Republic, thinking they matter but really were innocent chess pieces in Sidious's checkmate. The Clones went through complete hell for the Republic only to become tools for its downfall. They really were the best soldiers never falling short of their duty. When the Clone Wars ended for Jesse and his brothers so did their suffering. At least they can rest. Tragic they were created to kill and die for the republic. They played their part and will then be disregarded I'm sure.

Rex: “What's the point of all this? I mean, why?"
Fives: "I don't know, sir. I don't think anybody knows. But I do know that someday this war is gonna end."
Rex: "Then what? We're soldiers. What happens to us then?”

This why Rex is a fantastic character with a lot of layers. He watched his brothers and his closest brothers die in countless battles or sometimes off the battlefield unfairly as with Fives. Then he had to face them turning on him, being unable to help them, and letting them go to do the right thing because Rex cannot let Ahsoka die either. After all that suffering and loss realizing he's just a tool. Rex's humanity, honor, and sense of duty rises above it all and he just does the right thing. He said all the way back in "The Deserter" he just wants the children to live better lives. Failure is an understatement. In Rebels, Rex still picks up his signature dual pistols again and joins the rebellion hoping children can one day live a better life than he will ever have.

 

So today on my day off from work I re-watched the SOM arc and followed that with ROTS. A lot was talked about regarding Ahsoka vowing not to kill the clones at whatever the cost in this last episode, and yet in the movie you clearly see Kenobi and Yoda having no problem wiping out the clones when they return to the Jedi temple to find out what's going on and to stop the trap calling on all rogue Jedi to come back. I guess because she was so familiar with them, Ahsoka wouldn't think about them as expendable.

As I watched the events on Mustafar, it did dawn on me over what might've happened if Ahsoka were there. Considering the timeline of the events, it's possible by the time she and Rex had escaped from Order 66, she could've went to Mustafar to meet Anakin and Obi-Wan. You wonder if she might've had better luck talking with him than Kenobi did. She wouldn't have just laid the Sith bad, Jedi good on him. Just a thought.

 

I find it odd that the ending of The Clone Wars (back before it was cancelled) was a planned confrontation between Ahsoka and Vader very soon after RotS. Filoni obviously moved that to Rebels where I think it works better; because Ahsoka's had time to stew over what occurred and wonder, for years, what's become of Anakin.

 

Another thing I forgot to mention on the ROTS re-watch was that among the memorable scenes in the movie is when you see Anakin (as Vader now) approach the Jedi temple with a fleet of clone troops, before Sidious issues Order 66. How come those clones went along with the attack on the Jedi Temple without questioning it? Or did Sidious just issue the order on that small fleet before the rest of them?

 

Okay, just finished watching Siege of Mandalore in its entirety, and my feelings on this finale episode have changed substantially. Time for a new review.

Despite my earlier critique of this episode of being overly heavy on action with not enough character moments, what there is at the beginning is terrific--Rex's tears are still absolutely heartbreaking--and I'm now of the opinion that Kevin Kiner's incredible soundtrack does a much better job than any dialogue could. There's nothing Ahsoka or Rex could say that would do justice to the scale of the tragedy they just experienced. It works much better when viewed as part of a movie, though I do still feel it should be judged partly on its own merits, so I'm bumping my score to a 9/10.

HOWEVER... on this viewing it got me to tear up during the Y-Wing escape and ending, which is something that previously only happened with Savage and Fives' deaths. Anything that gets that kind of emotion out of me deserves high praise. So let's go with 10/10. This means that when you combine all my scores, you get a perfect 40/40.

And to that I say, well done, Filoni and crew. You surpassed my wildest expectations.

 

I imagine he issued Order 66 to that battalion of the 501st separately. Vader asks what will become of the other Jedi scattered about the galaxy and Sidious doesn't seem to want to reveal his hidden Order 66, perhaps because he doesn't want Vader to use such knowledge to potentially betray Sidious. I don't think Vader issued the Order 66 since he didn't seem to know about it.

 

Honestly, that Maul apparently found out Ahsoka left the Jedi order and why from mind-probing and torturing Jesse is inciteful to the relationship Ahsoka had with the clones in the 501st. Jesse never appeared with Ahsoka prior to SoM however he was part of the 501st and it stands to reason he served with her in the past. The only trooper who went out with Anakin to deal with capturing Ahsoka and bring her back was Rex. It really makes Rex's line "I know Commander Tano and she would never do this!" seem even more genuine. It just so happens someone was down there who looked like Ahsoka killing clones with lightsabers and Rex knows that's nothing to be trifled with. He tells his brothers she is "Armed and dangerous" just to protect them. We didn't need to see Anakin and Rex tell Jesse and other clones what happened to Commander Tano. Or hear the debate they had about her. It just would have been nice for her to have had a meaningful interaction with clones on-screen after "Brain Invaders".

The helmet painting thing makes it apparent that unlike the Jedi Council, the 501st clones and even some of the 212th like Not Waxer who we see salute Ahsoka before she enters the room believed Ahsoka's innocence and they still stood behind her. Clones like Jesse, Rex, Fives are more than capable of rationalizing for themselves Ahsoka's departure rather than being ordered to believe her by Anakin. We don't know where the decision to paint the helmet came from. But, they don't view her as a traitor or a deserter at all for leaving any more than Fives was ever viewed as a traitor for standing up to a rogue Jedi and going on his own mission. That's genuine loyalty. That's somewhat profound and there is clearly a unique bond there. Jesse tried to resist Maul to protect Ahsoka. They were her friends through it all when she didn't have many. It makes sense she wouldn't want to kill them.

 

Likely another order was given by Palpatine to the Clones that assisted Anakin during the temple attack, since Sidious told Anakin "I believe you are the only Jedi with no knowledge of this plot."

The Inquisitors also acted freely they appeared immune to Order 66, up until Barr mind trick their own troops and activated Order 66.

In one of the Vader comics the supporting Clones attack cyborg Vader as they mistake him for a Jedi outside the temple during that pursuit of Jocasta Nu.

 

Where was it confirmed they were planning for Ahsoka to confront Vader?

 

Supposedly, James Arnold Taylor made this claim on a podcast. You can hear it at the 34:50 mark of the Blind Wave review video. Not sure how true it is given that it's basically hearsay. I'd like to hear the actual statement from JAT (and Filoni).

 

In season 5, Lucas wanted to kill off Ahsoka according to Filoni, but Filoni won that one by just expelling her from the order. Ahsoka facing Grievous, Maul, Sidious and Vader she ended up completely doing from TCW to Rebels. I doubt she would've died in any TCW confrontation, since she had her own spinoff in the works with the younglings.

 

Here starting at 9:20.
https://www.fanthatracks.com/podcasts/full-of-sith-episode-ccclxiii-james-arnold-taylor/
It was basically Filoni pitching his version of the end of the clone wars to Dee Bradley Baker and James Arnold Taylor back in 2008, which he ended up doing in Rebels i.e. Ahsoka vs. Vader. We already knew that he was thinking about this confrontation for years, many scenarios with different endings. He also did doodles of it during the production of TCW some of which we have scene after the end of the Rebels season 2 finale.

Before GL changed his mind, the season 5 arc about the younglings would have been used as a pilot for the series and separated from TCW. I wouldn't consider it to be an Ahsoka spinoff. Could she have been featured as a guest star? Sure, but she wouldn't be the focus.

 

I finally got to see it and while my expectations were high, I ended up being underwhelmed. It was by no means a bad episode, but it wasn't great either. I definitely wouldn't put it over the ending to season 6.

Spoiler

The good:
Rex turning on Ahsoka and the crying, when he talks about killing his brothers.
The clone graveyard at the end and the sorrowful atmosphere.
When the clones turned on Ahsoka was a dreadful, well executed moment.

The bad:
The stupid of a bazillion blaster bolts missing Ahsoka, the character shield was strong in this one. I guess other Jedi killed during Order 66 just weren't as beloved by their creator.
We were supposed to worry about Ahsoka when we well know she'll survive and won't even receive serious injuries.
Why were Maul and Vader in this one? It didn't lead anywhere meaningful.

 

What? That's big information, what's the source?

I don't know how that would make any sense either as Anakin wouldn't be used to moving around in the suit yet.

Edit: whoops, I just saw your other post on this. I feel like it's questionable whether it was even in the original drafts for Siege of Mandalore since it seemed to be more of just Dave theorizing back in '08.

 

Spoiler alert here

Spoiler

Maul was the very reason that Ahsoka went to Mandalore in the first place. Why wouldn't he be in this episode? And Vader? Maybe you're new to SW, but I'll let you in a secret: ANAKIN SKYWALKER BECOMES DARTH VADER.

 

Spoiler

And what came of it? He was captured again and all of his revelations were rejected by Ahsoka. It therefore really didn't have much impact as the plot shifted to avoiding being killed by clones.

I've already seen the scene of Vader picking up a meaningful object several times. It's a bit overplayed by now, at least for me.

Thanks for the condescension because I'm not terribly impressed by something you apparently adore.

 

Spoiler

Nothing would've become of it because the Council wouldn't hear it anyway. Thank Mace Windu for that; don't blame Ahsoka.

Spoiler

That's fine because I'm not terribly impressed by something you apparently hate.

 

It would explain why she wasn't in ROTS, but I'm glad they didn't kill her off. Another great call by Filoni.

 

Can you all please be nice. I'm sure I'm not the only one that does not want this thread locked. Chill. Some liked it, some didn't. Same as the rest of the movies/tv series.

 

Maul: to see how he escapes setting up his future appearances.
Vader: to see how he's hunting down Jedi (as Obi-Wan says in ANH) and cause us to speculate on if he believes Ahsoka dead or if he suspects she's still alive.

 

Fair enough, that seems like something that would interest fans of Maul and Ahsoka.

For the record, I didn't hate the episode, just found it more on the mediocre side. It had some pretty nice moments, though. I wasn't planning on offending anyone.

 

Over 90% of members have voted the final episode at an 8 or higher. I'd imagine this arc has gotta be among the highest rated (if not the highest) arcs of the entire series. Not too shabby. Good job Mr. Filoni and crew.

 

I think that would be interesting to see but it would take forever

 

It’ll probably go down as one of the best sequences in all of SW, based on the information and exposition given within the episodes and how much of a companion these last four episodes give more weight and narrative to Revenge of the Sith and (Order 66) specifically