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Full Series The Clone Wars- Episode 106: Downfall of a Droid Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by The2ndQuest , Nov 5, 2008.

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  1. STUBRIS

    STUBRIS Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Count me completely happy too! And If I do have a few little niggles..too much focus on Anakin, Ashoka & Grievous for example, I will refrain from judgement until the series is finished. They have 100 episodes to fill, I'm sure Aayla, Ki-Adi, Luminara, Fisto, Ventress et al will have their moments in the spotlight.
     
  2. toxerre

    toxerre Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2008
    I really enjoyed this episode. It had a little bit of almost everything I like.

    I did notice something different about the animation in this one, particularly when Anakin was waking up and also when his starfighter was shown flying through space. It just didn't look right, but I couldn't put my finger on why. I really enjoyed what they did with the Trandoshan ship, however. It's nice to see some of that used aesthetic that was so prevalent in the original trilogy, but hard to find in the prequels.
     
  3. JediMasterShawn

    JediMasterShawn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    I wasn't aware that the Clone Troopers were "harbingers of tyranny." I thought it was quite clear in Revenge of the Sith the Clones and the Jedi had developed a bond. Yes, they do betray the Jedi but it doesn't mean they couldn't be heroes or have different personalities. And please, don't cite AOTC again because there is no evidence supporting your opinion.

    The Jedi did not become suspicious of Palpatine or the war until later. Right now, they're doing what their duty bound to do as keepers of the peace and protectors of the Republic. Even when they did become suspicious, they went to fight. I didn't see Obi Wan or Yoda complaining they had to go to Utupau or Kashyyyk.

    As for the politics of the war, I thought most fans were "bored" by it? Regardless, this series is fun! You know, like the Original Trilogy. Would you really like to have the fact that the war is being manipulated shoved down your throat every episode? I sure wouldn't.
     
  4. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Yes, as I said in more detail before (in that other thread), what we are shown of the clones and their relationship with the Jedi in ROTS supports the development of the clones' characters as we are seeing it done now in TCW. In other words, it is entirely plausible that this could have happened between AOTC and ROTS.

    "Would you really like to have the fact that the war is being manipulated shoved down your throat every episode?" --> True, and if it were that obvious it would make it harder to believe that nobody caught on sooner... it is being orchestrated by Palpatine from pretty far "behind the scenes". Although I appreciate a small hint of that every now and then, which I think we've gotten.
     
  5. DBrennan3333

    DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2004
    Funny you should challenge that! I just watched the Lucasfilm-produced 'Star Wars: The Legacy Revealed' and, guess what! They superimpose Clones over Nazi Stormtroopers.

    Good call!

    There's no evidence supporting what opinion? That the Clones were engineered to be "Totally obedient [and] docile" according to Lama Su? That the entire circumstance behind their creation was dubious and creepy? That Obi-Wan and Bail Organa were visibly distressed by their new Nazi-looking army (which, incidentally, were shown to move in the exact same formation as the droids moved in TPM)? That the Clones look exactly like the Stormtroopers in the OT and they marched to the tune of 'The Imperial March'? That the clones mercilessly and ruthlessly murder all of the Jedi without a second's hesitation?

    Yeah, there's no evidence that the clones were supposed to be creepy bad guys. You got me, chief.

    Hey, at least we agree on something!




     
  6. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Yeah, that's the one. Lama Su never said anything about the clones being totally docile, and you know it. The idea of a totally docile army doesn't make sense anyway.

    And this has what to do with the supposed discrepancy between AOTC and CW?

    You see the clones as "good" in CW and "bad" in ROTS. There is no discrepancy. Following orders is following orders.
     
  7. TwiLekJedi

    TwiLekJedi Pretty Ex-Mod star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2001
    They work extremely well as "bad guys" in RotS and beyond because they were so "good" during the Clone Wars
     
  8. DBrennan3333

    DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2004
    But when ROTS was released, all we knew of the Clones is that they were bred to be obedient killing machines, that they marched to Darth Vader's personal anthem, that Yoda, Obi-Wan, Bail Organa, and every other good character was, at best, reserved about having to use them, and that they looked exactly like the bad guys in the OT.

    So when ROTS came out, I didn't think of the clones as "good". In fact, if I had to pick any association at all, it would've been Nazis. (And, again, this parallel is pretty transparent in how they're shown at the end of AOTC, the fact that Palpatine is their "chancellor", and, in a documentary that Lucasfilm made, they themselves draw the comparison!)

    So we disagree on this. I think that CW is a complete and total restructuring of both the Clone Wars itself and the clones.

    But, yeah, I'm still enjoying it.
     
  9. Super_Battle_Droid

    Super_Battle_Droid Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2002
    Why does the Confederacy need a listening post when Palpidious can just tell them everything?
     
  10. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    They don't know that.:p
     
  11. Super_Battle_Droid

    Super_Battle_Droid Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2002
    My point is he seems to tell them alot of stuff.

    They know he's got control in the Senate. (They just don't know he's Palpatine.)
     
  12. DBrennan3333

    DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2004
    Not many of the Separtists know that Palpatine is engineering a massive conspiracy. If they knew that he was playing both sides, then they'd know that they were mere patsies, and being set up to lose!

    Dooku, as a fellow Sith, obviously knows that the whole war is a conspiracy to grab power, and there would have to be other agents, too. But it's not like Nute Gunray and all the rest of the Separatists know that Darth Sidious is actually Palpatine.
     
  13. Super_Battle_Droid

    Super_Battle_Droid Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2002
    I know they don't know he's Palpatine, but they know that he has control over the Senate.

    "I will see to it that things stay as they are in the Senate." Sidious to Nute Gunray.

    And that's even before he was Chancellor.
     
  14. WedgeWalker

    WedgeWalker Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2008
    But look at it from a different point of view. They used a trandoshan as the smuggler. That's a bit of a break in cliche, isn't it? The most famous trandoshan is Bossk...a manly bounty hunter. Other trandoshans have been used as beefy warrior types also. But here's one...as a portly smuggler. They were actively going against a Star Wars cliche.

    But look at it. This guy is stealing R2...from a Jedi...and delivering him to Grievous...for a bunch of money. That is a corrupt thing to do. If the smuggler wasn't corrupt, the entire plot of the episode would have been different. But they wanted the plot to be what it was.

    And if I may be so bold....Han Solo and Chewie.
     
  15. WedgeWalker

    WedgeWalker Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Let it go. You've never proven that point....because you never logically addressed the criticisms of your argument.

    Six episodes. Be patient. Six episodes, out of 100, are not enough to make any decisive claims about what the show has done to the Clone Wars. I'll grant you that right now it may feel that the show has changed it all. Fair enough. (I don't feel that way. But you're entitled to.) But only six episodes of 100 is not enough to make determinations about the nature of the show.

    And don't forget, whether people consider this a legitimate excuse or not, this is a show for children. There's going to be some simplification in it. That's the nature of the beast. You simplify things for children.

    So you watched it again? Because you had just watched it last week when you used that same bit of evidence on the Clones Aren't Being Handled Right thread.


    That doesn't mean there was nothing more to know about them.

    But I thought you hated this supposed new thing in CW of the creators using old war movie cliches? It wasn't in the films. But those pesky CSW producers have added it.

    But isn't "all those Nazi troops in a row" one of the oldest WW2 cliches in the book?
     
  16. WedgeWalker

    WedgeWalker Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Good point. The timelessness of Star Wars is one of its great strengths. Added in too much pop culture (which by its very nature is always in motion), and suddenly that strength is gone.

    I'm not saying one piece of tchno-esque music in one episode of Clone Wars has ruined the timelessness of Star Wars. But, too much of that sort of thing, and the timelessness will be damaged.
     
  17. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    It looks like they intentionally gave the medical scene a washed out bleach-bypass look to make it seem brighter than it probably was (since Anakin was still woozy from his injuries).
     
  18. jedi-soon

    jedi-soon Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2001
    Only just got to watch this one last night. Likes:

    There was some really beautiful rendering this episode. I love how they execute the space battles in general and the explosions in particular, they look so real.

    "We're not gonna last a Mynock minute out here!"

    Rex gets to be hero again!

    The shot of Grievous mounting his ship.

    The sound effects jumped out at me in this episode too. Ben Burtt is proud, I'm sure!

    I really enjoyed the return of the more rhythmic/techno style of music more heavily featured in the movie. It's not as Willimas-y, but it suits the style of the storytelling within the show and helps give it its own feel. SW can't grow if it doesn't reach a little here and there.

    I found the R3 character pretty endearing, they tried really hard to give it its own unique sound. Although its consistent botching of orders does certainly make it suspicious.

    Their entrance to the junk dealer's ship. Specifically the jump cut used to get us there. It made their move seem more bold, like they're just leaping into the face of the unknown.

    The electronic eyeballs that greet them.

    "Pookums."

    "Gramps."

    The assassin droids' fighting style, with bits of Grievous and Terminator thrown in.

    "Stubby!"

    "R3 can't even get the door open!"

    "Sir" is apparently a non-gender specific term in the SW universe.

    Artoo's escape attempt, especially the soundtrack. Rockin'!

    The CN segues to the commercials with the stylized characters and Casio Williams themes are a boatload of fun!
    ----------------------------------
    Everybody was dreading the coming of fart jokes, but they didn't bother me.

    When R3 is shown following Anakin in the hangar with Ahsoka in the background, that would have been a good place for a SW-style wipe transition behind the droid.

    Obi-wan's apparent indifference to droids seems there to illustrate the difference in attachment tendencies between him and Anakin. It's also consistent with his portrayal throughout the saga, although as WedgeWalker and others point out his attitude toward droids is adaptive over time.

    The battle droid's reference to "our spies" and Grievous's reference to "our tracking beacon" seem to give the game away for the focused viewer ;)

    In combat, being above your enemy is tactically advantageous because you have a greater chance of shooting over your enemy's cover. In the immortal words of Obi-wan: "I have the high ground!" Unfortunately, Grievous' strategy in attacking the Republic seems to be saying the opposite: "If we attack from above, they will have the advantage." Maybe its a reference to how shields are generated by star cruisers or some such?

    That would have been hilarious!
     
  19. Super_Battle_Droid

    Super_Battle_Droid Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2002
    I noticed a blue Pilot Battle Droid is this episode, I was wondering when they were going to show up.

    Now where's the red Security Battle Droids?
     
  20. jedi-soon

    jedi-soon Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2001
    Aha! After looking at the episode guide, we learn that Anakin's distrust of Ahsoka's flying (from the Malevolence arc) comes from events portrayed here. Ironic... and leaning toward stupid, since it's the same kind of trickery he himself often employs and she was saving his &$@ while doing it.

    It'll be interesting to see how all this sorts out in terms of the order of things. I recall the airing of the Young Indiana Jones episodes not even vaguely intended to be in order. Who knows if we'll even have a logical order for all this season's episodes by the time we get to its end.

    It's curious that Filoni acknowledges some fans' disapproval of the portrayal of Gha Nachkt as being smelly. I wonder if he got that feedback thru a special preview screening or whatnot. I'm also glad it doesn't stop him from being free with a little lightheartedness here and there!
     
  21. JediMasterShawn

    JediMasterShawn Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    What I meant was that I didn't think that the Clone Troopers were ONLY tyrannical enforcers. Yes, that is their ultimate purpose, but you seem to have a problem with them having some personality and seem to think that the Jedi distrusted them from the start. If that was the case, why would Yoda be so quick to utilize them at Geonosis? Yes, he obviously saved many Jedi because of the Clone Troopers, but if the Jedi really distrusted them or the Chancellor for the entirety of the war I think they would have acted a little sooner.

    Do you also think that all of the Nazi's were evil or without personality?
     
  22. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    I think what Grievous is saying is that the Republic would expect them to skirt the asteroid field, and attack them head-on. The Republic would have their forces arrayed to deal with a head-on attack, and they wouldn't expect Grievous to go through the asteroid field.


    Respecting the talk of the "uselessness" of the Clone Wars, I think it's clear that the Jedi realize the Republic is in great danger, regardless of the true motives for the war. And as far as the clones go, I'm sure you want to believe that you're on the side of right. You don't want any self-doubt when it's time to pull the trigger.


    And just to be clear, Lama Su says more docile (than Jango Fett), and totally obedient. Being totally obedient to any order is the entire point of putting soldiers through basic training.
     
  23. Tordelback

    Tordelback Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Sort of. I'm saying that if you are making a Star Wars serial that has as its prime target audience toy-buying kids, you can't afford to waste too much of your very limited running time on the moral vacuum of the setting. Star Wars sells itself as a struggle of good and evil, it's what defines the series in most people's eyes. At a macro-level the Clone Wars offers nothing of the sort, it's a scheme, a scam, and the Jedi are the patsies that make it all happen. Spend too long banging on about this, and that allure of a black-and-white universe goes away. In your Nazi analogy, our Jedi heroes become officers of the wehrmacht, at best. Bad enough that one of them is doomed to fall to the blackest pits of the Dark Side, that most are going to die and the two survivors will have utterly failed in their charge - these things we know, everyone watching knows. We've had these broodings in the comics and novels, Jabiim being an excellent example, do we really need them raked over again? The Clone Wars were Bad, and ended Worse. We know.

    But on the micro-scale, the individual episode, there is heroism and adventure to be had, comradeship, rescue, sacrifice and hissing evildoers to thwart. Take your eyes off that, focus on the 'political nuances' and the big picture and there are no heroes, just various tools of evil, with the only righteous man cremated a decade ago back on Naboo, and who will want to buy legions of clone-figures to fight legions of droid-figures? Where's the profit in that for LFL?

    Ignoring the moral vacuum is just like any other form of suspension of disbelief you might engage in when watching Star Wars (sound in space? static lasers that stop after 3 feet? mystical energy fields? someone falling love with Anakin?). It's a start that we feel the pain of how it all ends a little more when we get to know and like Ani and Cody much more than we did. I'm sure there'll be plenty of time for a bit more sophisticated foreshadowing and exploration of complexity as we go on, but House of Cards, A Very British Coup or even The West Wing (with lightsabers!) would be the wrong thing to expect from this very fun cartoon.

     
  24. fanboyskywalker

    fanboyskywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2008
    I'm loving Grevious in TCW. Hope he smashes a droids head off in every other episode he's in. Could be a fun running gag.

    Regarding the Palpy is Sidious thing... how dumb are some of these people? They should do an episode where they try to track down the wrong man. Palpy create a fall guy so that they think Dooku is now running things or something.

    I also want a Dooku/Yoda rematch that was set up at the end of AOTC.

    On another note, this episode was good. My favorite stuff was all the little moments, like the R3 interaction and more specifically the shot of Anakin clenching his fist in anger over R2 being gone and Ahsoka noticing it and reacting.

    I also liked how Grevious just took off and left the droids and the ship to be destroyed. His cowardice is amusing and well executed in the series.

    But this episode did bring up a good point. If there are no attachments for the Jedi, then their is a lack of desire and it may be a problem to watch characters who don't want anything. They should explore this with Anakin and with Ahsoka and him trying to teach her. I think we need more character conflicts. Conflict within type stuff. What would happen if Ahsoka's homeplanet was attacked??
     
  25. fanboyskywalker

    fanboyskywalker Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2008
    I agree. This was the best Anakin yet. I think they still need to work on their "heroic" Anakin portrayl.

    Very cool though was the movement of the IG-88 droids. And R2 was great too.