Full Series The Clone Wars- Episode 106: Downfall of a Droid Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Interesting point. I hadn't really thought of it that way.

I was born in '78. So I don't really remember the 70's (and disco in its heyday). And sure enough, Lapti Nek never bothered me. Of course, I never really connected the song with the disco genre. Never thought, "hey, that's disco." If I had've, it might have made it seem less timeless to me.

The Benny Goodman/Modal Node connection I made. But since that style of music wasn't popular during the time of the film, but was rather a style from years gone by that was adapted for use in the film (like the Flash Gordan inspired visuals), it didn't really date the film for me.

That having been said, I do think that ANH in particular does have some non-timeless elements...mainly due to budget limitations, as opposed to stylistic choices (though there are a few in ANH...). And of course the visual effects on all the films tend to date them a bit, just due to the evolving look of visual effects work over the years.


But either way, I'm glad Lucas, Filoni, and Kiner are doing some musical experimentation with the Clone Wars, even though at least one on occasion the results have left me less than enthusiastic.

 

Tatooine isn't in the Republic. There wasn't much Qui-Gon could do. Besides, he had a mission to complete. There was a queen and her entire planet full of people hanging in the balance.

And regarding the clones: Well, it's just EU...but Obi-Wan was initially quite disturbed by the notion of growing people for the sole purpose of using them as soldiers, according to the AotC novelization.

Fair enough. Though I wouldn't go so far as to call them cold. Calculating...yes on occasion. Cold? I wouldn't describe them that way. They are people with great power, who have to be very careful that they don't turn and use that power for evil. Their lack of attachment is, in their minds, a form of insurance. But it doesn't mean they don't care. Moreover, they have tough decisions to make, in that they are limited in number and can't fix all problems in the Galaxy. So they have to be selective. (And indeed, there may be some problems that they don't feel they have the right to fix.)

I would say that they definitely seemed to be heading in the cold direction in TPM. Their portrayal seemed to soften in AoTC and RotS...something I was glad to see.

Set in their ways? Definitely.


Regarding Ahsoka's clothes...perhaps it's a cultural thing.

 

"They are hard people, set in their ways, many of which I've always been at odds with. "

Mmmm. It's not for nothing that the two central heroes of the whole saga are Anakin and Luke, both outsiders to the Jedi tradition, both rejecting it as it was taught to them by Yoda. I do love Yoda, but it always fascinated me that people were annoyed by his harshness in TPM - as if he he was a nice guy in TESB. He was an infuriating deceitful bully - and worse, he was wrong. If Luke hadn't gone to Bespin, he would never have felt the good in his father, he would never have gone passively to the Death Star II, he would never have made the connection with Vader that ultimately doomed the Emperor. If he had listened to Yoda, when he eventually learnt the truth about Anakin he would have been fully trained, fully indoctrinated, a weapon of prophecy aimed at the Sith - and he would have failed.

The other Jedi outsider of the movies, Qui-Gon, comes across as the most open of them all - look at the rag-tag line-up of kids, droids and bumbling space-frogs he assembles in TPM - he lives in the moment and lets the Living Force guide him. On Tatooine, Obi-Wan worries that they've collected "another pathetic lifeform" - suggesting this is a regular occurrence.

Perennial Jedi yes-man Obi-Wan ("Don't defy the Council, Master, not again") fails in the most epic way imaginable (although again, I do love Ben).

It's only those who question the orthodoxy of the Jedi and their code that come across well in the movies. And this makes dramatic sense - if the Order were perfect, how did they fall, where's the growth and the revelation, where's the personal journey for the hero if he's just a good soldier following orders? Our heroes need to be odds with the Order, and for that to work, the Jedi need to be wrong.

 

Quest Posted: Droids are supposed to have routine memory wipes to avoid quirks and glitches from arising (and, it seems, from too much independent personality from accumulating), and with Kenobi, almost all the droids he's regularly had contact with at the temple, on Coruscant, etc are likely given such routine maintainence, or are battle droids who all have pretty much the exact same personalities. He's never really had experience to suggest droids are anything other than a reliable and interactive device that can be replaced if lost.

Yeah, but he's had Anakin practically shouting it in his face Even the Battle Droids come across as very life like in this series, with an evil twist. I think if people had regular memory wipes we'd be much the same.

Wedge posted: Tatooine isn't in the Republic. There wasn't much Qui-Gon could do. Besides, he had a mission to complete. There was a queen and her entire planet full of people hanging in the balance.

Thats questionable. I'd tend to agree that its not the Republic based upon CWA additions from the film and novel, but other sources have pointed to it as a part of the Republic. Still, Qui Gon and the Jedi don't get a pass from me for ignoring the situation.

And regarding the clones: Well, it's just EU...but Obi-Wan was initially quite disturbed by the notion of growing people for the sole purpose of using them as soldiers, according to the AotC novelization.

I'm glad Obi-Wan did, shows he's got a heart.

Tordleback

I agree with virtually everything you say. Yoda worked hard to try and repeat the failures of the past. He just didn't get it. Yoda was doing what he thought was right, but fortuanatly Luke was better equiped than Yoda to know what was important and what wasn't.

 

I dunno, they seemed kinda happy when they were popping open the escape pods from Plo's fleet. Humming a merry tune.......

 

Shmi: The Republic doesn't exist out here.
Watto: Republic credits are no good to me. I need something more real.
Qui-Gon: If he'd been born in the Republic... (although Anakin presumably wasn't born on Tatooine)


Regarding Tordelback's comments...

Interesting points.

I think their biggest failure, when you boil it all down, might be their extreme aversion to taking risks. They forbid attachment because it's a risk. A Jedi becomes attached to someone, the person dies, the Jedi loses it and goes to the Dark Side. (A scenario that came true in Anakin's case.) They don't want that to happen. Thus, to avoid the risk, they forbid attachment.

Yoda tells Luke not to go to Bespin. Why? Because he and Kenobi don't think Luke is ready to face (i.e. destroy) Vader. They see Luke going as a risk. Sure, they don't want Han, Chewie, and Leia (the other hope) to die. But they aren't willing to risk Luke's life on the chance he might save his friends, who may or may not die if he does nothing.

Luke wants to turn Vader back...to the good side. Yoda and Obi-Wan have written Vader off at this point. (Perhaps their largest single mistake, underestimating their old friend.) Given that Luke, not wanting to let go of his father, seems set on trying to turn him, and 1) that's impossible in their estimation, and 2) that's how Anakin was turned, Luke was taking a huge risk. Better that he take the safe route, practice his fighting techniques, become stronger in the light side of the Force, and try to "destroy Vader, and his emperor."

I think they care for the galaxy at large, and individuals. But, they're not willing to launch out, to dare to be bold. And the sad thing is, after the events of RotS, Yoda and Obi-Wan don't change. Or at least, not a lot.

 

I don't argue this, but looking beyond the films, EU sources have been conflicted at times. I mention it because of the situation of the Hutts. They seem to rule their own state, a point driven home by CWA. But if they rule their own state are they truly "criminals"

Likely Tatooine wasn't a Republic Member at the time of Qui Gon's arrival, though they possibly had been at points previous and definitly became part of the Empire after the fall of the Republic. Tatooine was first colonized by the Republic many years back, but a lot could chamge in a few thousand years.

 

Why would a "machine" seem happy at all? Programming perhaps, but they also portray fear at times and thought process/strategy.

I can't claim R2, C3PO, IG-88, I-5 or even HK-47 as the exception to the rule when they are the only droids who's stories we've ever followed closely enough to form an opinion on. Maybe if other droids were left on their own they would develop as well, alas they will never have the oppurtunity under the cold fist of their owners.

 

That's Luke's victory and the moral of his character arc, the fact that in the end he doesn't do what others tell him to do, he does what he knows in his heart is right, out of compassion and love.

I wouldn't say Obi and Yoda don't learn anything though, after all when Yoda teaches Luke he leaves out all the "attachment is forbidden" stuff and his whole philosophy seems to be more in line Qui-Gon's living force, with being focused and in the moment.

 

Other sources could be wrong.

You don't really need CW to reinforce this point IMO, given that TPM seems to get it across in several different ways.

 

I'm not sure I'd go along with that. While it seems that Yoda doesn't give Luke the finer points of Jedi conduct in TESB, he still seems locked into a "big picture" idea. He says Luke should be willing to abandon his friends to their fate, and treat his father as non-existent, in order to focus on his single task of taking down Vader and the Emperor. He doesn't seem to understand just how much Luke loves his friends and father and is willing to risk to save them.

Ben at least seems to have a glimmer of understanding. He acknowledges Luke's compassion, but advises him to put those feelings aside in favor of focusing on the task. He's pretty stern in AOTC, seems a bit more relaxed in ROTS, and guides with a much lighter touch in ANH. But he still bases his attitudes on a mission-centered idea, placing friends and family aside.

 

Some of the points raised in the last couple of pages have been excellent.

Nevertheless, they are only tangentially related to this thread. Please try to keep it on-topic if possible. Thanks.

 

I'll be back on topic in a mo, I promise, but very quickly...

The importance of attachments may be the only thing Obi and Yoda do learn (apart from turning into shimmery blue ghosties, and recipes for swamp/desert critter stew): they place Luke and Leia in loving families, to grow up as (relatively) normal kids, with strong attachments. Which is why they have friends and families who come back to save them at Yavin, Bespin, Tatooine and Endor. Not just critical Masters who leave them to die on the black sands of Mustafar.

Now, back on topic: in Downfall of a Droid we have Obi-Wan's second attempt to disparage Anakin's attachments. The first was with his mother ("dreams pass, in time") in AotC (and boy was he wrong), now here he is implying Ani shouldn't be attached to a droid. But Ani is attached, for whatever reason, and what happens when he puts his foot down? Anakin gets angry, twists things around, and heads off anyway. Again. What Obi-Wan is doing is pushing Anakin away, making him feel that he can't express his feelings to the man that's supposed to be both his father and his brother.

 

That may be true, but what's Kenobi supposed to do here? "When all else fails, lower your standards?"

He knows Anakin is supposed to be the Chosen One, and will undoubtedly be a Jedi Master soon. One of his only real flaws, as the Jedi Order sees it, is his attachment to friends/family.

To quote Yoda in ROTS "You must learn to let go of everything you are afraid to lose". This was bad advice for Anakin, but it is a true statement. It clouds his judgment and leaves him open to being hurt or manipulated.

And I think you guys are being pretty hard on Yoda and Obi-Wan, when it was Anakin's attachments that led to his downfall. Luke's attachments saved him. What are we supposed to learn from this? But again, that's a topic for the Saga forum.

 

You're right to an extent, yet my questions about the Hutt's State situation remain Are the Hutts petty dictators of somekind, or are they actually operating within someone elses government structure?

Anyway, maybe we'll have to wait for a Hutt episode for more thought on that situation , as I guess it is off topic.

Of course Anakin's Attachment situation is very on topic when its the basis of his actions for the entire episode.

 

But I'd argue that it wasn't his attachments - how could loving your wife and wanting to save her be wrong? It was the lack of anyone to turn to for advice or support other than Palpatine that led to his downfall. And that was entirely the fault of the Jedi code, and the men charged as his mentors.

All Ani needed to pull him back from the brink was for Ben to say: "So you're married. You shouldn't have done that, Anakin, but you had a funny start in life, it's wartime and these things happen- congratulations, she's a terrific woman. Now let's get Padme to the best doctor on Coruscant and see what the story is with these visions, you can't be too careful".

And remember it was his attachment to his son that destroyed the Sith.

So I'm with an Anakin Skywalker that cares about Artoo and wants to keep his personality intact, and against any Code or Master that forbids it. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this plays out later tonight, and I think it's great that each episode is giving us more ammunition for these kinds of discussions (phew, back on topic just in time...).

 

Good points! Attachment brings the father down, and redeems the son. (Although note that attachment is also what nearly brings Luke down as well..."If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will.")

 

When it leads you to kill Mace Windu in cold stinking blood.

So to be precise, it isn't Anakin's attachments that brought him down, but what he did because of those attachments. Hence, the attachments led to his downfall.

Disagreed. He could turn to Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc., ...they just wouldn't like what he had to say.

Simple fact is, for better or worse he made a commitment to the Jedi Order...a commitment that for better or worse meant a commitment not to get married.

He went back on his word. It's unfortunate that he found himself in a situation where the only one who seemed sympathetic was Palpatine. But Anakin is responsible for his actions. He didn't have to get married. He didn't have to try and control things (keep his wife alive) by doing wrong (i.e. killing Windu, and the avalanche aftermath).

Regardless of whether or not it would be right for Obi-Wan to do that given Jedi rules, the fact is that conversation never had a chance to happen, because Anakin didn't initiate it. They never talked about it. Anakin didn't bring it up...probably because he figured Obi-Wan wouldn't approve. But nevertheless, Anakin didn't go to him. So we don't know what Obi-Wan would've said. And it isn't reasonable to blame him for not doing something he never had opportunity to do.

In the end, Anakin is responsible for his actions. The Order's hard-line stance (whether justified or not) doesn't justify his behavior.

After his attachment to his wife helped destroy the Jedi.

This attachment thing can be a great thing, or a horrible thing. That's why the Jedi consider it so dangerous.

Agreed!

 

If Anakin had been able to be open with the Jedi Order about Padme I suspect he wouldn't have fallen the way he did. Maybe he simply should have been open with them and accepted the punishment.

I'm glad that Anakin cares about saving R2 as well, or even that Ahsoka cared about Plo. More compassion from the Jedi makes the characters more enjoyable to me.

 

Agreed on both points.

 

I just got around to watching this one, and I missed tonights because of a sporting event.

The begining started off great, it made me have a glimmer of hope that they might actually show a CIS victory. But noooo... They put the AT-TE's on the asteroid, as Grievous, who is supposed to be a great tactician, lets his rear shields down. Which brings me to another point: How did the ships get destryoyed that easily? Where were their shields, if only for the front? And how the crap did Anakin's fighter cause that much damage? I'm referring to the scene where he blasts through the bridge, and blasts that lower tail structure. Oh my god... That initial space battle has so much potential, but they turned it into another mindless turkey shoot. And back to the AT-TE's... Those big guns on the top couldn't penetrate the Core ships in Episode II. So how did anti-vehicle and anti infrantry weapons blow a battleship in half? If I were a writer on that show... Things would be very different. But this is a kid's show, and the "good guys" always win, no matter who or what the other side is, and no matter what they are fighting for. Rant over, the rest of the episode was pretty good.

I did like how they have the blue pilot droids now.

 

>>>Grievous, who is supposed to be a great tactician

HA HA HA! I hereby laugh at that.