Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 311: Pursuit of Peace Discussion Thread

You are hating these separatist too much - yes they are greedy and prepared to do bad things to get money... but they aren't really evil- calling them devils is just.... too much .... Palpatine is the devil.....seppies are pityful minions that are afraid and blinded by their greed- cowards and disgusting people who would sell their mother for credits yes.... but there is difference between evilness and this kind of blind selfishness- without Palpatine Gunray and others would have never been able to do all these things they've done- they lack boldness and bravery- they had to be encouraged to act like this- trade federation was republic's own commerce guild- made for interstellar trade and it was profitable- taxation made possible for the Republic to control TF- to keep it leashed so to speak.... but palpy changed all that- he did find Gunray and others who were greedy enough to be fooled- Sidious helped Gunray to get the viceroy's title in the federation.... but viceroy is not dictator it's leader of the TF- but like chancellor is republic's leader- real power was that of the governing board- in Cloak of Deception (one of the best politics novels in EU) security droids "accidentally" murder all other members of the governing board - leaving Gunray, Haako and Lott Dod etc. alive so TF becomes completely neimoidian controlled- and what is even worse- completely controlled by Sidious- neimoidians are naturally careful- but Gunray's greed was enough to win carefulness once- and you know that fear was enough weapon for Sidious to control Gunray......

As much as you would like to leave sidious out of the SW- you cannot- he is the evilness in the saga and it's impossible to speculate star wars without him...

But seppies get pretty much what they deserved and even too much- Cato neimoidia in TFU2 is nice addition (best thing in entire game) and it shows what neimoidians get after the war- low position under the empire- servant-race for "better" ones like humans- they had to thank empire how "wise and powerful leaders" saved neimoidian people from evil separatist dictators- and neimoidians had to openly tell how they are not natural leaders nor smart enough to rule their own planets.....

and still you say you aren't agreeing with the empire and here you use the same arguments as imperials did to oppress neimoidian people - of course you don't have specistic point of view which is good- but it seems George is somewhat specistic himself..... where are nice, loving and caring neimoidians? Nowhere to be found all are greedy bastards

 

I thought he was speaking frankly, to be honest. He was in a military briefing. That isn't generally a forum for facetiousness.

 

But that was his point of view- "Saleucami has fallen and Master Vos moved his troops to the Boz Pity" that's means according to him -that they are going well.... one victory and no defeats....it's good but doesn't mean seps are defeated....

 

He speaks of multiple campaigns and they're called the Outer Rim Sieges, indicating a plural. Obi-Wan indicates they're going well. He speaks of Salaucami because Vos was getting a G-Canon mention. Not because that was the ONLY battle they fought. Of course the Seps aren't defeated, but look at the big picture. The Seps have their heartland under siege in multiple places by the Republic, their lost a massive fleet and their leader in a bonecrunching battle against the Republic over Coruscant, and the Separatists had to invade a neutral planet simply to find a place to stow away the Separatist leadership. This indicates that the Separatists couldn't risk going back to their own territory without being attacked by Republic fleets. Why else would they go through the trouble of taking Utapau? We're never told that it's a valuable planet and locals are resentful of CIS occupation enough to call the Republic for help. The Separatists are in an extremely unstable position at this point, because within a year, the Republic managed to reverse their fortunes.

 

There was no agreement between Dooku/the Separatists and the corporations before the meeting on Geonosis in AOTC. That is why they met there. To strike a deal. And the Separatists also had no army of their own until that point. They merely bought/got some of the battle droids and ships of the corporations. And all the non-Techno-Union-corporation-guys were on Geonosis at this time to purchase new droids from the Geonosians.

It makes no sense at all to see the average Separatist guy as someone who wants to overthrow the Republic with violence and establish some kind of evil capitalist empire. Later on, such a conspiracy really seems to exist, but only on the top level between the corporations heads and Dooku. And it is a lie. It is a lie to get these people to support the CIS. In truth, the Sith have no interest in establishing a capitalist Empire, they want to create the Galactic Empire Palpatine ended up creating, and apparently none of the corporation heads play a major role in it.

Dooku just deceived and exploited the capitalists the same way he exploited the democratic idealists among the CIS. The corporation heads somewhat were 'evil', but not really, as they just intended to do what a capitalist is after: maximize your profits, and get the state to establish laws which protect your interest, instead of the interest of other groups.
The idealists on the other hand were not evil at all. They wanted no war, and they also wanted no Sith dictatorship, nor a corporation dominated Confederacy. They were disgusted by the way the Republic worked, and by the way the Jedi stood around and did nothing about it. They are, in my opinion, very similar to the later rebels. Bail Organa and Mon Mothma ended up doing pretty much the same thing on a smaller scale than what the Separatists did.

Just let me summarize what happened between TPM and AOTC for you, Falor:

- Palpatine became Supreme Chancellor and promised to put an end to the corruption in the Senate.
- Secretly, he encouraged and fueled the corruption, while appearing the opposite. He did so, to plunge the GFFA into a full-scale civil war.
- Many Senators and member worlds of the Republic got pissed by the increase of corruption.
- Two years before AOTC former Jedi Master Dooku reappeared and established himself as the voice and leader of the Anti-Republic-corruption movement. Without him at the head of the growing Separatist movement, there would have been neither a CIS nor a war.
- He and his followers decided to leave the Republic instead of going along with all the corruption stuff. None of these guys - beside the Sith Lord Darth Tyranus - wanted war. They just wanted to leave the Republic, and did so.
- The Sith got the Republic clone soldiers via Kamino, and the CIS via the corporations. Fear on both sides allowed them to start the war.

 

Thank you. The Separatist movement was designed to be appealing, just as the Republic was supposed to look corrupt and inefficient. War was the means, yes, but the Empire was the only end intended.

 

But this episode is set while the Clone Wars is going on. he deals have already been struck. The corporations are firmly in league with the Separatists. You can't tell me none of the idealists in the CIS ever experienced the cognitive dissonance of railing against corruption yet being led by a cadre of people DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for that corruption. And this is common knowledge too. People like Nute Gunray showed their true colors at Naboo and the idealists still consider him a friend. Not to mention that Grievous and Ventress are visible savage individuals. They are also, not secretive or hidden terrors. They are at the forefront of campaigns. How appealing is the CIS really? Maybe in 24 BBY, when the CIS was first a new astroturfed grassroots movement, it really was idealistic, but that all changed when every single corrupting element in the Republic joined the CIS in one fell swoop. You're judging the CIS of 22 BBY by the standards of the CIS of 26-24 BBY. This is wrong, because it whitewashes the wartime atrocities and systemic corruption present within the present-day CIS.

 

you underestimate the power of the propaganda- CIS has monsters as slaughterers but so have the Republic... the jedi- "they swing their lightsabers with a deadly force like they were on crusade" says Satine and yes they are honourable we know it- they never kill if they don't have to- but jedi culture is not well known in all places of in-universe galaxy - and when seppies tell about the jedi they like to think them as monsters like Grievous is-

They have twisted view of the war yes- but still they aren't completely wrong either- for example geonosians were pretty brutally put down in Landing at Point Rain- flamethrowers and lightsabers..... used in propaganda it tells about slaughtering jedi and clones brutally murdering brave warriors that tried to defend their homeplanet but were killed when defenseless against republic technology (workers may not be at the level of "normal sentients" but they are living and sentient beings still).... Lux Bonteri was also surprised when he saw Ahsoka was normal sentient being... not mysterious hooded and scary monster who attacks you and slices you with a lightsaber- that's the picture of the jedi in CIS..... Grievous however is watched only from republic perspective- i would like to see what CIS thinks of him.... is he still a mad monster that should be leashed- or is he hero who protects innocent beings from the jedi-monsters of the republic

 

I admit that the the Clone Wars are shown in this series is that the Republic is much more, well, 'good' than the Confederacy, as we did no see a single really good Confederate military commander (Trench and Mar Tuuk were competent and likable opponents, but not really 'good'), nor did we see the Republic committing war crimes (despite some of the stuff on Geonosis), or similar beasts like Grievous, Ventress, or Lok Durd on the Republic side. That is why this series should also introduce us to Tarkin and some of the other military commanders of the later Empire. This could really work well if they show us Kuat, Fondor, or some of the other shipyards where the Republic milatary equipment is produced.

We see where the clones come from, but it would be also interesting to see who makes all these star destroyers.

Showing that the average Separatist is a nice guy is an improvement, but not nearly enough. We really need to see that besides the Jedi and the 'good' Senators most of the Republic government officials are Palpatine's cronies. They won't oppose his decision to establish a dictatorship - quite the contrary, they will actively help to transform the Republic into the Galactic Empire. Of course, this needs to be foreshadowed too obviously, but it should be there.

And Tarkin really should be there. He most likely was some kind of a war hero, or else he would not have risen as high as he did immediately after the Empire was established. It was good that Yularen is not Tarkin, as he most likely would not have been such a nice guy, but Anakin should really meet and work together with him for some time. They have to bond somehow, especially as Vader later on really seems to respect Tarkin in a certain way. At least he does not dare to treat him like he treats the personnel on his own ship.

 

Yeah Tarkin should be in this- he just cannot be very good guy- and he don't need to- he is republican though but not very goody-goody.... still he don't have to work with Anakin- Vader has 19 years time get to know him...... Merillion Tarko from TFU2 would also be nice addition to this series- it's said he was commanding Republic flagship in the Clone Wars- probably as admiral like Yularen and Kilian... and in the game he is moff and leader of the Cato Neimoidia- kinda natural since he probably had neimoidian archenemies in space battles.... Mar Tuuk and Lok Durd has cameos as pictures in the game....too bad TFU2 was too short but that Neimoidia level is excellent......
And shipyards would be nice.... but Fondor being member of the Techno union did it make ships for the Republic or for the CIS... or for both

Well first season wanted to use classic good vs. bad- black and white view of the universe- that's why it had bad seppies and good republicans... season 2 brought some matureness and "gray characters" and now season 3 even showed humane seppies.... so perhaps show is maturing and republic already has some evil senators so why not evil military commanders too.... Chii Choo was kinda bad though

 

To The people who hate the political episodes I say this isn't the floor of the senate just another Battle Field in the Clone Wars? Where words can do just as much harm as a blaster? These people decide the fate of Billions with a simple raise of their hands. I find it interesting that it's the polititians that advocate peace like Mon Mothma and Bail Organa that become the heads of the Rebellion against the Empire.

 

it's not odd when you think what they are after- they are after peace and justice- but Empire gave peace with oppression so they had to fight against oppression to receive both peace AND justice.... they aren't pacifists like Satine -they are prepared to fight for justice but Republic is becoming more and more militaristic institution that uses fear to rule- that's what they are against... warmongering against seppies goes very far when negotiations are not open at all- everyone sane fights only to get the peace- but what the peace should be like then that's where the difference is between these "future rebels" and other senators....

 

Finally watched this episode. It wasn't terrible, but paled in comparison to Heroes On Both Sides.

I'm thinking a trilogy based around Padme talking in the Senate probably isn't a great idea.

Random thoughts:

(1) I get the idea that buying 5 million more troops or whatever could bankrupt the Republic, but how long does it take for the troopers to grow to adult? A few years? Aren't they way past the point of no return for this - it's like it's too little, too late. Either they'll have won the war or lost the way by the time these new troopers are ready to go.

(2) Really not liking the Padme models at all, especially the "Saesee Tinn" model when she's on the speeder bike; I know they wanted to show off the animation by giving her character more expression, but during her speech at the end, it made her seem like she was acting in a high school drama play;

(3) Nice that they finally showed her elaborate hairdos were headdresses; it was obvious to me she couldn't have her hair that long or change the styles that often, but I thought that's what they wanted us to think, since the headdresses were always hairdos and not just hats or helmets;

(4) It is always cool to see more of Coruscant;

(5) The little scene with Palpatine at the end was nice. His voice actor is doing a better job with the voice this season I think.

(6) The Coruscant police droids are arguably less effective than battle droids.



EDIT:

(7) Anyone else ever read anything by Steven Brust? He's a fantasy writer and the Teckla species are the peasants/servants in the world. Just wondering if the writer is a Brust fan, thought it interesting that Padme's servant was called Teckla.

(8) Oh god, the episode guide is hinting that we're going to see Mina's son Lux in a future episode.

 

I agree about Padme over-acting. During the opening Senate scene, I thought she was going to smack someone with her waving arms.

 

Perhaps those 5 million troops have already been pre-ordered. After all, the Jedi Council had no knowledge that a clone army had been ordered in AotC. One could speculate that the bureacracy of the Republic is so mired down in itself that it has no idea what is going on under its name.

 

Most likely the Kaminoans don't expect to be paid on delivery. They are expect to be paid in advance. Or does anybody believe they would have created the existing clones without already getting more than enough payment? They surely would have stopped producing clones instead of worrying if anyone would show up and taking the clones...

So it makes no difference when the new clones are ready, the Republic has to pay for them in advance.

 

Well name "Teckla" dates back to AOTC- she is the servant girl in Varykino that serves food for Padmé and Anakin in "aggressive negotiations- scene" -she is now handmaiden it seems.... name "Minnau" has TPM-history and it was given for Teckla in "What's the story" things of the official databank i believe...

 

Yup, terrible water shortages in that there Lake Country. Worse even than at the Waterfall Palace in Theed. Truly a planet honeycombed with water is a curse.

 

It's not said if Teckla lives there though- but yeah there is horrible irony there -as said before

 

Okay, so my retcon for all this is: Padme is actually a good-natured but scatteredbrained individual. After Dorme went on strike because she had enough of Padme's inane antics (and this following the resignations of Sabe, Sache, Yane, etc. over the years), Padme took Teckla to Coruscant as her aide. Before she only worked in the Lake Country. So Padme brings her and her family to Coruscant and they're all excited at first. Then they realize Padme's only in one of 3 locations at any one time (kinda like the law of particles in physics):

1) Arguing in the Senate
2) With Anakin
3) Kidnapped/Hostage

And occasionally all three at once.

So in short, Padme has no time to do the important things in life. Like pay her servants on time. This is why Teckla went from being that proud straight-backed individual we see in AOTC to the hunched-over nervous looking creature in TCW. She just can't bring herself to tell Padme they need more money, especially when Padme's constantly worried about the Republic's financial woes.

When Padme finally had that lucid spell in Pursuit of Peace, Teckla thought she had her chance. Not only did she tell Padme her family's dire straights, but she even held up that ridiculously expensive hairpiece as a kind of "hint hint nudge nudge."


I am not sure how the story of Teckla ends. But I do know that we don't see Teckla in ROTS. Just some poor unsuspecting young saps hiding in the dark recesses of Padme's apartment.

 

Well "What's the story" tells Teckla becoming handmaiden of Queen Kylantha later on... let's hope she will pay better and Teckla can move back to Lake Country- so her poor children can take a bath every day... well they must be grown up by then

I'm very worried now about those poor naboo children- is swimming in all those lakes forbidden or did Blue shadow Virus contaminate it worse than we saw

Well for season4 they will probably make some "exciting" episode named "Water shortage" in which Padmé has to shoot some smugglers who sell contaminated bathwater to naboo children... and Satine comes from Mandalore so she can burn down some warehouses on Naboo- just in case they have something illegal in them

 

Barriss_Coffee, I think your analysis of Teckla is spot-on and should be made official canon. And Swashbuckingjedi, let's not forget that before the burning of the warehouses, there must first be a debate on the deregulation of the water treatment facilities on Naboo.

 

We must also remember that Trade Federation is absolutely neutral in all of this

 

My thoughts on the Teckla thing:

Just ignore the crap about her family living on Naboo. Apparently she is serving as an aide to a Senator right now, and Senators are living full time on Coruscant, so it makes little sense that her family lives back home on Naboo - at least, not her husband and her children. And if she lives on Coruscant, it is possible that nearly every non-upper-class citizen does suffer from the war. Coruscant most likely only gets enough goods if the interstellar trade is working perfectly, and right now the whole war business should have a real impact on the shipment of practical everything. And Coruscant is totally dependent on imports.

If resources are really that short right now - and especially after the bombing of the power generator this makes sense: without energy nothing works, especially not all these flying platforms on which ships carrying goods are supposed to land. If there is nothing to buy her pay check is not going to help her, either. I assume she gets a decent salary, but not that much. She is just an aide, and I'm not sure if Padmé herself is paying her, or the administration of the Galactic Senate or the government of Naboo. If Padmé is not responsible for her salary, it would change nothing if she would complain about it to her.