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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Cohesion/Direction/Structure Of The ST & It's Pros & Cons

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Tyrian, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    "Show not tell". That was a lot of action to leave to a line of dialog. Her line to chewie was just her plan, not exactly how she would accomplish that. You know that.
     
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  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Exactly. Action which wasn't necessary or going to add anything to the story that a line of dialogue could not achieve while keeping up the pace.

    Frankly. Endless, interminable ingress/egress take off/landing scenes kill Star Wars stone dead in the water for me. Unless it what happens at that moment is essential to the story or telling us something about characters then they are just carpet material IMO.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  3. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Agreed. She told us/Chewie her plan, and since she escaped using a ship (the movie even tells us this), she was able to rendezvous with Chewie.
     
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  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    What's the name of the ship? How fast could it go? Is it one of a kind? Is it a type that Rey would conceivably know how to pilot? Did she fail a few times before launching it? Did she have it in gear when turning the key? Did she at least take the ship that looks like Snoke's instead of Snoke's? Is she using Ren's insurance?

    We just don't know because they don't bother to tell each other these things in the film, meaning that they don't tell us. And you know what? I'm not even sure the producers even know. [face_nail_biting]
     
  5. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    Last time we see rey she's in a tug of war. Then she, the main character disappears for most of the third act until she's suddenly manning a gunner. Luckily, we got a line explaining where our main character went during the third act. Lack of cohesion.
     
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  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    She doesn't "disappear". We cut back to the throne room post saber-explosion and Holdo's suicide attack and the character on screen declares that the girl left in Snoke's shuttle (presumably to rendez-vous with Chewie, as indicated earlier). What is it that you are having difficulty following?

    "Cohesion" (sic) doesn't mean giving prominence to the things in proportion to how much you like them or their supposed "main" character status (one of the several central characters, in fact) of the person whose every movement you need portrayed.

    Movies only show or tell you what you need to know or see at any particular moment.

    As it happened. Luke confronting Ben took over the whole film. Inserting Rey into it just because you think she should have more screen time would be gratuitous and might jeopardise cohesion.

    It can't be "incohesive" or even incoherent if you know or you've figured out what it is that you're missing off screen and the action on screen doesn't contradict it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  7. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    She disappeared for most of the third act. I'm not even gonna argue as this is a plain fact. Someone talking about someone else does not = hey they haven't disappeared. What is this place?
     
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  8. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    And when she is seen on screen again it's to join the battle that Ren embarks on after having made the aforementioned rendezvous with Chewie in the aforementioned ship she stole from Snoke. Her next appearance is rescuing the survivors from the cave after the battle.

    The time she spends off screen is spent doing things that she said she'd do, or things that other characters inform us she's doing/done. Or she's simply in transit from one place to another that provides no extra story?


    What is it that you have difficulty following out of all that without more screen time for Rey?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  9. KembaSkywalker

    KembaSkywalker Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 16, 2016
    The time that Rey spends off-screen is being largely exaggerated. I suspect that will become more clear once the blu ray drops. Kylo wakes up and tells Hux that the girl escaped on Snoke's craft and we immediately cut to Crait.

    The 5-10 minute sequence plays out with Finn and Rose returning to the Resistance, the Resistance coming up with a plan to stall the FO assault with the speeders, and then the speeder sequence where Rey returns in the Falcon.

    So, presumably, she escaped the Supremacy on an Imperial ship (which we know she can pilot from Rey's Survival Guide which tells us she learned how to pilot using Imperial Simulations. No, we didn't need that in the movie, that type of information is exactly what the ancillary material is for - mundane backstory that isn't relevant to the main story at hand.) She meets up with Chewie on the Falcon. They fly to Crait. Boom, she enters the action.

    Maybe it seems longer because Crait is one long sequence as opposed to cutting between different settings? Not sure, but she's really not gone for too long.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  10. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015

    This is the last comment i'll make to you on this. When writing a story, when you have your main character change settings and emotional states so drastically, you never leave it up to exposition. Rey is seen crying/screaming during a tug of war in a setting that was red and black. The throne room had fire and embers floating in the air. It was a serious scene. A flash of light occurs, they cut away and thats it. The next time we see rey, she's in the gunner's seat smiling and exclaiming "WOOO!! I lyke thas!!", all with a sunny blue sky'd hoth in the background. If you can't see how thats an issue with a lack of cohesion between scenes and the way a character is portrayed on screen, then there's no point in continuing.

    As for the thread, I'd also mention phasma's disappearing reappearing blaster during the finn fight. Or the fact that she goes from being right next to him surrounded by storm troopers to suddenly being on the other side of the hanger with a bunch of troopers after the big kamikaze scene. Finn and rose act as if they've just been in a sudden and huge catastrophe while phasma and her troops look like they just entered the room, marching in formation and all.

    disclaimer: if you're one of the people who are just here to try and talk down any and all criticisms regardless of their merit, then just know that i'm not participating in that on this thread or any other. You may notice that you won't find me in the "list what you loved" thread trying to tell people that they're love of the film is wrong. I'm not here for that. I have no interest in changing other people's mind if they loved the film.
     
  11. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 25, 2015
    A good military leader would have understood the huge stress of the situation they were in and understood that putting them on a course where it looked like she was leading them all to their deaths, while really have a super-secret plan to save them, would almost certainly inspire someone to mutiny.

    Poe's actions, while definitely "wrong" in the sense of military command, are not surprising. If it hadn't been him mutinying, it would have been someone else. Or others would have just run away and abandoned ship, because the person in charge was just leading everyone to their deaths.

    There is a point to military secrecy, and to the chain of command. But every military commander will also tell you that having the trust and confidence of the people that you command is critical. Holdo did NOTHING, at least in the context of this movie, to even begin to try and gain that trust or confidence once Leia went down. She basically just said, "shut up you a-holes, and do what I say". That isn't a good leader.

    I'm sure RJ's plan was to make Holdo a "strong female character" who "doesn't take crap from a man", but all he did was turn her into a female version of the a-hole men that usually inherit that role to give the more main character someone to rebel against (and are almost always proven to be overbearing and wrong). And consequently I hate her just as much as the men that usually are in that role. Luckily, her character is dead, so we hopefully never have to see her again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  12. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    All we know is that Holdo did not tell Poe and his friends about the plan.

    At no point the movie tells us that everyone else on that ship also didn't know the plan.

    For all we know, it is possible that other people knew the plan, but they just kept their mouths shut, as they were supposed to do.

    In fact, everyone on the bridge knew that they were loading the escape pods.

    Finally, at no point the movie tells us that Holdo created the escape plan as soon as she is presented as the new commander.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  13. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    I think one of the first scenes between Rey and Ben Solo will revisit what happened in the Snoke room scene in greater detail, personally, complete with a flashback.

    I see that conversation as IX's (Saber hold out moment) because we will learn more about what happened there and I won't be surprised if there's an eventual twist/layer added to it all when we see it.
     
  14. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    If she had told anyone about the plan, then poe and his friends (dunno how she knows which people are poe's "friends") could've gotten the info from anyone. In fact, poe is beloved throughout the resistance. Its hard to imagine people knowing the plan, but not telling the hero that blew up SKB. Strange indeed.
     
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  15. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Or the people he is friends with were not the people who knew the plan.
     
  16. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    Since that movie hasn't even been filmed, thats obviously speculation. We're just going by what we have so far when dealing with the lack of cohesion in the trilogy.


    ok just go with that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  17. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    It is speculation. However, with the trilogy not yet completed, and this ST already making use of forcebacks/flashbacks and discussions related to things that occurred in the previous films, this aspect feels more like a fan question that we hope is answered than something that's been closed off indefinitely. Especially since those two haven't even spoken yet it feels even more like a creative decision that RJ left deliberately open, including neither of them having the chance to say anything to each other since, so that it can go in any direction depending on how JJ views what happened and where he wants to take IX Consider how many different ways that scene could be handled in a flashback/discussion between Rey and Ben Solo in IX.

    Option 1: Ben Solo is faking being KO'd when Hux arrives and actually just landed and told her to leave before the others arrive.
    Natural questions heading into IX if that was the case from Rey would be why he did that.

    Option 2: Rey really did wake up first, walked past his body to collect the other part of the saber and left.
    Natural questions heading into IX if that was the case from Ben Solo would be why she left him alive, and questions for us would be whether she looked around for anything to potentially kill him with, including his own saber or not.

    Option 3: He woke up first and woke her up and told her to run. This would obviously be the most extreme example of option #1.

    Depending on where JJ wants to take IX the fact those 2 haven't even spoken since and we don't know what happened there allows Abrams to setup their first conversation around what happened in the throne room and with the direction he intends to take things in mind.

    Questions between episodes aren't uncommon in Star Wars either so there's probably more reasons to expect this to be resolved in some way in IX than not. This is a saga after all that left huge questions like this coming out of film 2 of the OT: Why did Obi-Wan lie to to Luke Skywalker about his father, including how he came to Tatooine, who his mother was, what did Obi-Wan know and not know, what did Yoda know and not know, what did Vader know and didn't know, etc.

    That said, I suppose it could be this saga's equivalent of Vader following the destruction of Death Star 1.0 when he is seen spinning out into Space without any support around and no known base nearby in a Tie fighter and we never get an in-screen explanation of how he moved from that to where he starts in TESB.

    So, we shall have to see.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  18. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    Like i said, we're just going by what we already have. If we speculate, then we'll be on an endless spiral for 2 years.
     
  19. JamieH

    JamieH Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 25, 2015

    Hello, the movie IS ABOUT POE AND HIS FRIENDS.

    If we have to pretend that the only reason that the actions of a character in the movie made sense is because of some imaginary interactions with imaginary characters that basically weren't even in the movie, then, even if you agree that it could be a plausible explanation of some sort (which I really don't), what kind of storytelling is that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  20. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

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    May 19, 2002
    Fair enough. However, to me complaining about now knowing yet what happened there isn't that dissimilar to complaining about not yet knowing how Rey and Ben Solo feel about each other yet heading into IX.The fact that they haven't spoken to each other since the saber broke and that we haven't seen what happened there yet all seems carefully orchestrated to allow for that to be a jumping off point in some way when they next talk.

    We'll know either way in a couple years I guess.
     
  21. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 25, 2015
    I wouldn't complain about that. Rey's expression as she shut the door on him made things pretty clear. That said.......this is not the reylo thread....we're not here to talk about rey and kylo's feelings or speculate on that.
     
  22. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Why are you screaming?

    Nobody is "pretending" anything. We are mentioning a fact that there are hundreds of people inside that ship, and that Poe and his friends are just half dozen people.

    Nobody can say that nobody else knew the plan. The fact that the movie follows Poe does not exclude that there are other people around and things are happening in parallel.

    An actual fact is that at least whoever was in the bridge knew the transports were being readied for escape.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  23. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Funny isn't it? I remember ROTJ showing us how Luke escaped from the Death Star and I don't remember anyone criticizing that. And it's funny how basic expositional dialogue isn't necessary to some people for things like plot details, backstories, and character motives. But it's totally cool that dialogue is all we get here.

    Apparently "do as little work as possible" is the optimal way to tell a story these days, unfortunately.
     
  24. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    What's really odd about it is that there are massive oversized sequences for side characters like Finn and Rose escaping and getting to Crait but for Rey nothing.
     
  25. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Well also apparently meaningless no-names whom the audience doesn't care about are in on Holdo's plan, but the actual main heroes that matter to the story and whom the audience does follow/care about and who make decisions, aren't told for no good reason.