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Discussion The Cohesion/Direction/Structure Of The ST & It's Pros & Cons

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Tyrian, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Interestingly, Johnson delivers the Rey and Luke teamup at roughly the same time as surprises. Prior to that the time is setup on establishing the logistics of the planet of Crait and the last stand uphill battle the survivors are up against. Johnson chooses to stay on Crait and not show what’s happening with Rey in transit or Luke checking out the X-Wing or remembering the Force act he’d read about perhaps. Johnson could have showed born but by spending time with the survivors and making that final stand scarier it makes the surprises of Luke and Rey at the end sweeter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  2. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    I'm sorry, han solo was the main character of ANH? Do you guys even stop and think before bellyflopping in to defend this film? How many pages have we spent responding to lame deflections and apples and oranges comparisons?
     
  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Remain calm.

    Rey's no more THE main character of TLJ than Han is of ANH.

    Does showing the embarkation and disembarking of his shuttle ride between Cloud City (also pre-exposited with dialogue) and his destroyer make Vader THE main character of The Empire Strikes Back?

    Was the "surprise" entrance device only used with Han in ANH because he was not the main character and so was excused from providing an on-screen beginning and middle of his flight from Yavin and his last minute intervention?

    And since when is it inappropriate for the whereabouts of a main character to be in suspense for any length of time during the climax of a story, at least until they are required to actively influence the plot? You know. Like, for dramatic purposes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  4. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015


    Aaaaannnnnd we're done here.
     
  5. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Top 3 main characters in ANH: Luke, Han, and Leia.
    Top 3 main characters in TLJ: Rey, Luke, and Kylo.
     
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  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    I'm pretty sure at leat one of the other two is picking up the slack in the scenes that take place while Rey has "disappeared". She plays a big role at times within those scenes as well.
     
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  7. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    But the focus is not on her.

    And again when the OT/PT can be bothered to show us these things without it "breaking the flow" of the narrative, then I don't buy this "well they didn't need to here because it's redundant or whatever" argument. Again with this trilogy, just not showing or explaining things well has become the norm, and suddenly for some, that's "better storytelling." No it's not.

    I've seen it done better, and that's the problem.
     
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  8. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Just realised that Rose takes out Finn's speeder in a visually similar way to how Han knocks out Vader's wing man, setting the collision in motion which takes out Vader himself.

    But Finn and Rose aren't even the main characters! Arrrgh! It's all so incohesive.

    Unless it was dramatically desirable or even just expedient not to and still convey they narrative accurately.

    If you are only showing something to visually explain something that's already been conveyed in the dialogue, and the visual element conveys nothing what we've not already been told and might need to see. Then it is, by definition, redundant. And not only redundant, if it undermines the desired pacing and emotional rhythms. It's what low budget movies resort to in order to fill out running time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  9. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Since people are now mocking and listing the trio of main characters, I'll just add this one final thing. In the OT, if han died in ESB, could the main story continue? If luke was killed by vader on bespin, could the main story continue?

    In TFA if finn was killed by kylo at the end, could the story continue? Do i even need to ask the question about poe since he was originally written to be killed at the start of the film?
    In TFA if rey was killed by kylo at the end, could the story continue? If rey was killed by snoke in TLJ, could the story continue?
    If you answered yes to the luke and rey questions, then know that you're incorrect and somehow have not identified the main character of two star wars trilogies. That said......why are certain people pretending that han and rey serve the same role in the stories they participate in?
     
  10. Nadroj ilain

    Nadroj ilain Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018

    I honestly cant believe theres a legitimate discussion here about the incohesivness of that Rey scene.

    Our protagonist is in a room with the unconscious antagonist...and its not shown...in ANY other movie that wouldn't work and people would be rioting.

    Harry potter waking up next to a passed out Voldemort.... Goku waking up next to a passed out frieza that just killed krillin and vegeta......

    The movies are supposed to be leading up to this confrontation between Kylo and Rey. There is no legitimate excuse for this writing. Convenience and necessity dictated that entire plot line.
    Rey wakes up first - convenient because now we dont have to wonder why kylo just didnt kill her
    Rey spares kylo - gotta have episode 9, right?
    Rey knows the layout of snokes ship and is able to find herself a ship - luckily those werent destroyed
    Rey has enough luck that NO ONE ELSE tries to get to these escape ships - unconscious as well???
    Rey maneuvers through the wreckage, prepares her craft for take off, opens up bay/hangar doors, knows the code for the shields - well she's a scavenger?????
    Rey then rendevouz with chewie and enters the fight...to fight off the forces of the man SHE JUST SPARED!


    Now writing dictated by convenience does not in and of itself create a cohesion problem however when all these loosely based elements come together its fairly easy to tell there is no cohesion.
     
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  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Yes. To all.

    But not in the "choose your own ending" kind of way that you're describing. If those characters were to have died earlier in the saga than they do right now, then it would only be in a fundamentally different movie that was conceived and designed to provide a specific need to include their death.


    Except for Han. He could have died and the next movie would be minus one Han rescue scene. The rest of ROTJ's narrative would be unaffected. But I wouldn't change his contribution to TFA for anything.

    Don't know how threatening to arbitrarily kill off main characters before their time got into a discuss about the necessity for shots of spaceships taking off and flying away.
     
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  12. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    She wakes up first because she wakes up first. There are only two persons there, so she has a very high probability of being the first to wake up.

    Yes, gotta have Episode IX, but this is not the reason Rey spares Kylo.

    First, the ship is falling apart, and she wanted to leave that death trap as soon as possible;
    Second, Rey would be hunted by stormtroopers if she did not escape fast;
    Third, the lightsaber was destroyed and she does not master Force Lightning;
    Fourth, she is not an assassin. She wanted to turn Kylo, not kill him.

    She was conscious when she entered, she could backtrack her way out to the hangar.

    A lot of them were killed, a lot were unconscious, and the other troopers were too busy trying to save themselves to notice her.
    Also, how can you say that nobody used escape ships? At no point the movie says that nobody else used escape ships.
    She found one and used it.

    The hangar doors for all capital ships are already open, as seen when she entered.
    There is no need to know the code for the shields to exit, this is not a requirement presented by the movie, especially for Snoke's personal ship.

    I wonder why you don't question the same things when Luke escaped DS2 in RotJ.

    Oh, and she was a scavenger and knows how to pilot very well, this was presented in the last movie, released in 2015.

    Yes, she is fighting to save her friends. At no point she personally fights Kylo again.
     
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  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    :confused:
    I must have missed a meeting.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    It’s only “sudden” if you don’t pay attention to details within the movie. However, it is deliberate for Rey, Chewie & the Falcon to not be at the forefront of viewer’s minds for a while in the movie. To maximise the impact of their intervention. They were essentially the cavalry arriving to help save the day. In those cases it’s always better if you can create some element of surprise. It’s Basic Filmmaking 101.
    This complaint is now a dead horse being flogged into oblivion.
     
  15. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    figures. Just thought i'd add one last thing before moving on.
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    No Columbo jokes, please.

    My wife does those all the time. ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  17. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Well since the movies actually pretty much do that it stands out when they don't especially when it's that much more important.

    It's far more than that. It's an essential part of the storytelling of Star Wars and always has been right from the start.

    That's what is a major undermining factor of the ST's cohesion and structure on so many levels. They clearly do it in the ST as well but then draw particular attention when they don't do it.

    This is like saying that there should have simply been a quick cut to Rey standing in front of Luke then bothering with all of this:



    Dialogue from Leia could have covered the first two minutes of that sequence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It's a frequent part of the storytelling. And categorically not essential if there has always been exceptions.

    We saw Rey's journey to Snoke from the Falcon. We don't need the return journey shown to us. Especially since Rey already described it to us in advance.
     
  19. ForcePushUp

    ForcePushUp Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2016
    I've currently been reading the NJO books, and the more I read, the more I realize that the BIGGEST mistake the ST made right off the bat was rehashing the Empire/Rebellion story. They can call them the First Order and the Resistance, but they are basically the same thing. Doing that kind of robbed the ST of its own distinct icons. Aside from Kylo Ren's lightsaber design and maybe the Porgs, there is nothing about the ST that give it is own visual identity because so much of it calls back to the OT.

    Say what you will about the PT, at least they have their own distinct iconography, like the droid army, the pod racers, and Amidala's initial design.

    Now if they had, for example, used The Yuzzhan Vong as the villains of the ST, that would have opened the door to something completely different. OK, it didn't have to be the Vong, but at least try something different than just rehashing Stormtroopers and Star Destroyers again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  20. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Absolutely agree: Distinctive iconography. I wonder if they were just playing it a bit too safe?

    But otherwise...I think the FO-Resistance/Empire-Rebellion similarities may have very deliberate story purposes. Sorta like Kylo paralleling/mirroring Vader and Rey paralleling/mirroring Luke.
     
  21. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    Lucasfilm said since 2015 that Finn was the male lead of the trilogy, he isn't supposed to be more important?
     
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  22. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Yes, and hopefully he'll be more important again in episode IX. I think part of that marketing had to be around the main protagonists, as opposed to an antagonist like Kylo. At any rate, if I had to name the top 3 main characters of TLJ, it would be those three.
     
  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It's a bit sad when people are attempting to hold up the mass murdering villain over the male good guy as the lead male because of prominence given to the latter actor's comic talents, which are comparable with Ford's and superior to Hamill's (although Luke didn't get too much comedy to do). It also escapes their notice that Rey is made a figure of fun as much if not more than Finn.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  24. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Good vs Evil is standard. Either we call it First Order, Mandalorians, etc, etc, it needs to be good vs evil.

    And the First Order is very different from the Empire, they started the trilogy in the position of the Rebels of the OT, and the New Republic started in the position of the Empire. Meaning, the starting positions were swapped.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  25. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    It's sadder that the trilogy has been written in such a way that it causes them to see it that way.