ST The Cohesion/Direction/Structure Of The ST & It's Pros & Cons

As for the connections the sagas have mostly connected via the Force story and these 2 do.

It’s a fable about a young slave girl whose guardians sold her that was forced to learn how to fight in hand to hand combat to survive and who’s optimism and imagination remained powerful despite her dire circumstances. She’s always had a sensitivity to the Force that’s allowed her to be quite good at fighting but it’s growing stronger in her and she doesn’t know what it is or what to do.

She’s brought into adventure by a droid, a defected stormtrooper and a mentor in Han Solo who tells her that Jedi are real and aren’t myth. She’s intrigued and learns of a hero that’s went into exile and retirement.

She encounters a sword that seems to want to bring her and its ex Master back together. She’s told that the answers she seeks about the Force are in front of her and not behind her.

This mentor introduces her to the sister of the mentor and she encounters her first Dark Side user who seems to be her opposite and yet is alluring and offputting. He offers to train her and she catches him off guard and injured and injures him.

He’s ridiculed by his cruel Master for being unable to bring her in alive and punished.

The sister of the famed Jedi knight asks her if she’s willing to deliver a lightsaber back to her brother in exile and to explain that they could use his inspiration again because the war is being lost and people are losing hope.

She agrees to and does. The sword has done its job in bringing her and him together. And both benefit. She doesn’t have the benefit of watching the OT so everything Obi-Wan or Yoda have said isn’t known to her so everything Luke explained about the Force and the Dark Side offering easy solutions and the flaws with the Jedi is helpful for her. More helpful are the ancient Jedi texts which she scavenges. She begins being able to communicate with her Dark Side equivalent telepathically and learns more about him and sees their future together and believes he can be turned and that if he does he will save the war. She goes to him as s result against Luke Skywalker’s warning.

She also starts the inspiration that grows from others Luke knows and ultimately gets him to move past his issues and become the inspiration the galaxy needed when all hope was nearly lost. Better still, he shoes Kylo Ren the power of the Light side and inspires others to join the Resistance and to trust that Rey will be the next hero the galaxy needs.

She played a part in defeating the being who bullied and turned Ben Solo but her world is rattled when her vision proves incorrect and that he merely did it for more power. It’s the hard life lesson she needed. Meanwhile, Ben Solo has developed a weakness for Rey and the 2 most powerful pieces in this game or chess are off the table.

It’s pretty cohesive to me through 2 and has the potential to be very intriguing depending on what revelations remain.

 

That all fits and is a good summary but I see it more that these outlines exist and likely are shared with the writers along with other concept art and then the writers get more specific or ask the story group “Is there a reason we can’t change that to this?” kind of questions and build it out from there. I still think they know where they ultimately want Rey to get to and had settled on the idea of one movie for Han, one for Luke and one for Leia.

Without a doubt though each new film’s specifics forces the next writer to work from something that had been set up clearly and then I think they all try to work toward that end goal they have in mind. So the broadest of strokes are there and I think some (including perhaps Lucas son) know what those broadstrokes are and that’s why I think her true lineage will be revealed only at the end of the saga as a reward to her for first doing what she does without knowing who she was.

I just have a hard time imagining following the MCU model — which Iger is familiar with — they don’t at a minimum know how they want to end it and that the freedom is more in getting them there.

 

This exactly. That's why there's so little worldbuilding and so many things, like the Force and Snoke and Luke and Ben's motivations, are left vague for no good reason.

It's all just a contrived corporate product designed to appeal to the masses, not hardcore fans. As long as you're in the mood for a comedic parody of SW and you don't sweat the details, this trilogy is for you!

Kennedy and Disney were in a big hurry to get this cash train started, so we shouldn't be surprised at what's happened. Maybe in the future they'll have more willingness to create a coherent story. I just hope they pick a better writer than Rian Johnson: someone who doesn't mistake space opera for parody and comedy.

 

This topic is total nonsense. If Lucasfilm/Kennedy planned everything out in advance, then people would be crying about "corporate filmmaking" and "no artistic freedom" for directors and writers. In fact, people have already made those complaints about JJ/Lord & Miller/Edwards.

Now people are saying that Lucasfilm/Kennedy "have no plan!" because they didn't get a safe, bland, feature-length sitcom Marvel movie. I, for one, am thrilled that SW is NOT the $&#%ing MCU. Thank God filmmakers have the freedom to take the baton and run with it instead of making cookie-cutter movies for ignorant simple-minded fanboys.

 

If it's the Anthology films, I would prefer a director-driven style since these are independent films and can be ignored easily if one of them is botched up. But it's suppose to tell a larger narrative in chronological order, I want an overseer to make sure everything is in line to prevent inconsistency. Otherwise, you'll end up with the Justice League mess with Zach Synder's vision clashing with Joss Whedon's vision.

 

I don't want to hijack this thread by making it about the DCEU, but the problems with Justice League go a LOT deeper than "consistency."

1) Snyder had a personal tragedy that forced him off the project midway.
2) Many people actually enjoyed JL more than BvS, SS or even MoS.
3) Many (including myself) believe that the entire Snyder-verse was flawed to begin with.
4) Wonder Woman. The DCEU is a mess and they still made a good movie by...making a good movie.

I understand that a cinematic universe like Marvel's "works," but I never want to see that kind of airtight control for SW, trilogy or spinoff. Need I remind a forum full of SW fans that George had no plan for the OT??? Vader wasn't Luke's father in 1977. Leia wasn't Luke's sister in 1980. Han was supposed to die in ROTJ. Thank the maker it wasn't planned out.

People are free to hate these new SW films (I personally dislike Rogue One), but blaming a lack of corporate pre-planning is silly. Doubly so since fans were so concerned about the opposite before TLJ came out. "LOL, they'd never give Rian real freedom! Lord & Miller's firing proves it!"

 

Why the either-or logic? It's not corporate planning to hire a writer and director and have them write a story. That's what writers and directors do. The corporate people leave them alone to write a trilogy. That's just how storytelling works.

It's really amazing to me the way some people will act like LFL's political spokespeople. It's not like anyone is paying you to defend them. Isn't possible that they might have done things better?

 

Maybe the problem is Kathleen Kennedy. When Jurassic Park III came out, she did an interview which made my skin crawl (I think it's on the Bluray). She said what people liked about the Jurassic Park movies were the special effects, demonstrating a complete lack of understanding about that movie series and its magic. JPIII then killed the franchise for almost fifteen years. Maybe KK has misunderstood the appeal of the Star Wars too. It's not really about TIE fighters, a masked villain, the Rebellion, etc, they're just the dressing on the hero's journey.

The prequels get a lot of criticism, but at least they had a different story to tell: the downfall of Anakin Skywalker (told a little ineptly IMO) and the transformation of a democracy into a dictatorship (told very well IMO). So far the story of the sequels is Ben Skywalker looking for his own identity. He has discovered that he's not a Skywalker hero and not Darth Vader either. Yay.

 

Keep in mind, OT was uncharted waters with no universe to be defined. Whereas TLJ had a defined universe with defined rules and expectations. And as Lucas progressed further into the story, the ideas became sharper and he had idea of what the flims were all about. Because Lucas was in charge of all three movies, it had little risk of a new director derailing the narrative and telling his own story over George's.

And personally, I had always preferred an overseer for the Sequel Trilogy because it's a sequel to George Lucas' six part saga and thus must respect his narrative, characters and rules. And if Lucas cannot be around to supervise, then it should be something that must be handled with care (like Kevin Feige making sure that most if not all the Marvels are consistent and building up to Avengers: Infinity War). If Rian Johnson was making an Anthology film, I would like grant him near total freedom. But for him to write a sequel to the main saga? There better be a good leash to ensure he stays on target.

 

Saying you never want to see 'that kind of airtight control in SW' is not mutually exclusive with saying 'there needs to be more control / oversight than what there is currently'.

There's a middle ground and a balance - one that I think hasnt been found yet for the Episode films.

Personally I think your prior post is a suitable sentiment for anthology movies, but not appropriate for a narratively linked trilogy. Giving people too much freedom can be just as bad as given people too little.

Exactly. And it seems so blatently obvious that they should do this, you really have to wonder how on earth it slipped through the cracks not to.

 

I agree that it seems crazy not to write out a trilogy beforehand for such a valuable property, but what specific complaints about TLJ would you say are direct result of a lack of planning?

 

It's not. Lucasfilm has it both ways by using Pixar's "braintrust" model, which allows for strong feedback without a kung-fu grip from above.

Kathleen Kennedy is like John Lasseter...the head honcho on top.
Kiri Hart is like Darla K. Anderson...a trusted creative executive.
Kasdan, Kinberg and Brad Bird are like Pete Docter, Andrew Stanton, and, uh, Brad Bird...the council of actual filmmakers.

Needless to say, Pixar has as good a track record as any, especially before Lasseter started splitting his time between Disney Animation and Pixar proper. Look, you don't have to like TLJ, but this is going to be another billion-dollar plus movie and it received outstanding critical reviews, and there are plenty of diehard SW fans (including offline) who love this movie.

So far, I'm a big fan of the Disney/Kennedy-era SW universe. Even the film I didn't like (Rogue One) was enjoyed by many people who disliked TFA. That's great. I'm glad they did something different and reached a different audience. I'm also grateful for a "divisive" film that I loved (TLJ), but I understand if they go with a big, happy, rah-rah Episode 9. That might be best for a concluding chapter to the Skywalker Saga.

 

Most fans and critics alike would say that ROTJ is a step down from ESB and ANH, so I don't know that sharper ideas and more definition were a good thing. And then of course you have the prequels that George had supposedly planned out in advance...

For the record, my one major complaint with TLJ is Snoke's swift end (though I appreciate the twist and narrative purpose upon repeat viewings), so I'm sympathetic to fan expectations and "WTF?" complaints. At the same time, I'm old enough to know that knee-jerk fanboy/girl reactions are not to be trusted. I mean, there's a reason actual seasoned film critics are giving a popcorn blockbuster such glowing reviews (86 on Metacritic).

 

I'd say Snoke is the best example which makes you wonder 'wtf is anyone in control here?'.... but Lukes handling, Reys parentage, Finns story arc all jump to mind soonafter. It's pretty subjective and i'm sure others would prioritize different examples.

You might have asked yourself after TFA, "I wonder where are they going with the Snoke character?". Well the answer was, "nowhere". Which then leaves you wondering... why even introduce him in the first place as the big baddie, if hes so irrelevant as to be thrown away nonchalantly mid second movie.

I dont think for a second JJ had that scenario in mind for that character when it was created/introduced, nor what happened to luke in mind, and I doubt he had what happened to Rey in mind either - etc etc. Can't (wholly) blame Rian, can't (wholly) blame JJ. They were hired to make a film and they made a film. But surely somebody (kathleen?) couldve got a better blueprint mapped out / communication between directors before the trilogy started production.

This discussion reminds me of "Newt" from Aliens. Her character (and relationship with Ripley) was one of the best parts of Aliens. So what happened in Alien 3? The latter film came in and narratively pissed on her setup and built-up-potential of the former... by killing her at the immediate start in a throwaway off scene. Bold decision? Yes. Good decision? No. I think the same can be said for many of Rians decisions with TLJ. (and again - I cant wholly blame him, either. He wasnt hired to oversee this trilogy, he was hired to make a film and thats what he did for better or worse).

 

ROTJ was considered a step down due to the Ewoks and the franchise becoming "toyetic." But the Emperor, Luke and Darth Vader scenes was where the real climax is. It was highly well-received and if nothing else, ended the Star Wars Saga on a high note and solidified Star Wars to be about the Skywalkers and the major themes of love, redemption and triumph were established. And it gave Lucas a grand story to tell rather than simply going with the serial nature of his original intent "From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker."

Now that I think about it, Rian Johnson would have benefited more if ST was not a three-part film act, but rather a series of serial film adventures with no beginning or end. That way, he wouldn't be confined to the confirmed Skywalker family narrative of the Star Wars Main Saga.

 

If you're old enough to know that, you're also old enough to know that Disney has a non-negligible intimidation factor and presence online for professional reviewers. That can manifest in things like withholding access to red carpets, special events, or blacklisting your entire god-damn newspaper etc. And thats not counting reviewers who havent accepted money for favourable opinions on the downlow. (Wouldnt it be juicy to find that out!). Remember that story a few months back of how Disney tried to blacklist the LA times who had reported on something they didnt like? Do you really think they would have *zero* willingness or desire or urge to protect their biggest multi-billion dollar franchise? They might not always be dramatic responses like the LA times blacklisting, but you can bet your bottom dollar they arent sitting there doing nothing.

Are critics all in on it and part of some conspiracy? No, of course not, and im not suggesting that. Tons of critics genuinely love the film im sure. But ive got no doubt theres a grey area where theres some dirty play involved too. Dont just say 'actual seasoned film critics loved it!' on one hand without pausing to consider Disney is more than capable / happy / ready / willing / able to play dirty as well - and some critics as well - to twist the narrative so the 'tidy soundbite result' is what you just said.

 

1) There's a big difference between fanboy/girl YouTube reviewers and actual top critics like Manohla Dargis. The tactics you mention only "work" for the former and frankly, even then they're not as effective as you think.

2) Metacritic (only established critics) ratings for Rogue One (65), Thor 2 (54), Cars 3 (59). All Disney properties. Again, TLJ has an 86. Disney must have forgotten their bribes for the first three! *eye roll*

3) Disney had a spat with the LA Times over an alleged "hit piece" about their political maneuverings and banned their critics from their screenings. The critical community rightly reacted angrily and Disney backed off within a day or two. LA Times had their full critics' privileges restored. You were saying?

Withholding access to red carpets, screenings and special events for bad reviews is incredibly stupid and doesn't happen. After all, the reviewers would just retaliate by printing bad reviews, even for films they liked. The one time Disney revoked screening rights was for political reasons, not a bad review. And it failed miserably.

 

The point was they had the audacity to do and try it, not the end result. I thought that was rather obvious, hence why I never bothered to mention they got them back soonafter. The intent and audacity was the takeaway.

I think its interesting people (apparently) genuinely feel there is no pressure or intimidation factor, and an interesting conversation, but a tangent to the op here. Id love a dedicated thread just to discuss the stuff mentioned in the last few posts. Someone should make it =)

 

Fan speculation is incredibly fun, but in the end, it really has nothing to do with the quality of a film. A person shouldn't call The Godfather Part II a bad film because he was expecting Michael to be redeemed or killed after watching Part I.

Luke's story, Rey Nobody and Finn's "failed" mission caught me off-guard but they all worked for me (Luke in particular). Snoke's swift end didn't, but I'm bothered less upon repeat viewings. Interestingly, I have a friend who liked but didn't love TLJ, and he had no problem with Snoke's death. It's no surprise that he didn't spend much time coming up with Snoke theories like I did. I'm noticing a lot of critics and reviewers seem to agree with my friend on that point.

 

1) But it wasn't for a bad review.
2) And it didn't work at all.

So your point doesn't really hold water.

Playing devil's advocate, you could try to argue that Rian Johnson is a critics' darling so they were biased in his favor. But you could say that for any acclaimed filmmaker (e.g. Denis Villeneuve or Paul Thomas Anderson). Not to mention even those guys have variance in their reviews.

 

This is actually a quite interesting topic.

Firstly, yes, they should have put more effort into planning out the broad strokes of the trilogy, although I'm not sure the trilogy will actually shape up to be as nonsensical as many seem to be suggesting. Ultimately the films were always meant to be a trilogy which means that each film already has some frame work inherently attached to it (i.e. they aren't treated like standalone films). That means that the writers are still using a broad template for the character arcs.

Rey's journey is so far coherent: she starts out as a nobody and answers to call in TFA, she is faced with adversity from her shadow self in TLJ, and will probably find her place in the world in the final film.

People keep saying that she was set up in TFA to be someone significant - I can't see that inherently in the film.

 

To me though whilst ANH was made without a firm plan for the story we see in the rest of the trilogy its not really comparable to TFA. Lucas film gives you a very form introduction to its characters and setting that leaves you wanting to see more, Abrams film on the other hand leaves its chaarcters and setting much mor eill defined for me and depends heavily on introducing mystery's to drive its drama and build fan expectation.

To me ANH is actually a far better setup to what followed than TFA because it has those characters and situation to hand down to ESB. A lot of the reason why the latter film was able to subvert expectations was I'd say because those expectations has been well setup previously. TFA's mystery boxes to me though actually lay a burden on the following film, expectation that they will be answered but not really that much to work with in terms of answering them.

I think it really comes back to how TFA was made for me, Disney bought Lucasfilm for a giant amount of money(I'm guessing maybe loans with interest?) and wanted a return on that investment quickly, more quickly that Michael Arndt could deliver a script. Abrams was I suspect hired because it was believed he could bring his formula from Trek and put out a dependable hit fairly quickly. Yet I think his "mystery box" style is actually a creative shortcut, something that's far easier and quicker to write that well developed characters and setting passing down work to what follows. So Disney got there quick hit but IMHO at the cost of introducing weakness into the setup for the ST.

I would say as well that to me it felt like TLJ had exactly the wrong kind of "oversight" to it, rather than a firm plan about were the story was going it seemed to me that there were likely demands that it replicated the tone of Abrams film, so limiting Johnson creative AND passing down a burden of answering mystery's to him.

Marvel to be seems to be a rather different situation in that its films are naturally more separate which leaves a lot of room for different characters/settings to be delt with in different styles.

 

That's interesting, yes. There's that story group that should've held the reins of the future projects, keeping the greater picture in mind, but that's apparently not the case. Lucas was criticized and bashed for a number of reasons, one being that he's the mastermind behind the saga, who dismissed all the suggestions, surrounded by yes men. But even though his OT was a bit dodgy continuity wise, the PT was a big success - not only the movies flow very well, they're also made not only to fit the OT, but to expand and enhance it.

We know, from some early reports, that Lucas started writing the sequels before the sale; I believe not without some reason, without the story he wanted to conclude in Episode 9. His treatments must've had a point, some connection with the original movies to be explored, now ditched in order to recreate the FO vs. the Rebels or Resistance.

LucasFilm is now without a person with the vision of a story in mind in the lead chair. K. K.'s idea of SW is apparently the same Lucas had in 1977., and story group thinks that making a stand alone movies will result in a coherent story that'll round the saga, but with TLJ abandoning some of the concepts set up in TFA that'll be an impossible task.

 

The Lucas loyalist narrative that Disney doesn’t care is ridiculous. Lucas trusted Disney of all studios because of their track record for quality and making classics for children exceeds that of most studios and make no mistake about it. Star Wars has primarily been for the 8-16 age group demo from ROTJ on through ROTS.

There are way too many people involved with a ton of pride and ego who want to make the best films they can and Disney and Kennedy both have a better than average track record of quality than most studios. If they didn’t care about making quality films they wouldn’t be working with people like JJ abrams and Lawrence Kasdan and Rian Johnson and Michael Ardnt. These guys are highly respected in the industry for what they do. Johnson turned down many blockbuster offers but Star Wars was a dream project and remains one for him. You may not like that he’s evolved Star Wars but he’s passionate and talented.

I don’t think many in here realize the kinds of revolutions in Post production and visual effects that now allow people to move from production to finished work. They’ve been some of the biggest changes in any industry the past 30 years. That’s what allows people to finish films faster. Most of the time is spent on writing and then once they get to storyboard stage the Lucasfilm craftspeople are so top of their class that they all go to work and start building. The actual shooting doesn’t take that long once fully plotted out and post production has never been faster. Even digital intermediates and digital projection buys them time.

Johnson spent months with the story group. These guys are some of the biggest Star Wars fans out there. Even over the past 2 weeks people here are being reminded of aspects of Luke’s personality from the past they’d forgotten and conversations with Yoda that these people deliberately were referencing and working from to better envision how Luke had that fleeting Dark Side moment and the subsequent shame and guilt of it. While the Astral projection spoiler was being sold online pre-release as Luke dying and then becoming a Force ghost that fought Kylo Ren (implying that he was a Force ghost that was physically there and not a mind trick) people freaked only to realize after that Astral projection has been part of the EU for 25 years and that steps had been taken to show he didn’t interact with the physical world the same as Kylo Ren

People freaked for a few days about the ancient Jedi texts being burned before realizing they had been removed and that Yoda knew the whole time.

The people involved love Star Wars and love quality films and have the passion and talent to make quality Star Wars films and thus far they’ve been much better made, and more thought provoking, and more emotionally moving, and more exciting than the first 2 prequel episodes with less cringe humor or wooden acting.

I’m thankful to have new Star Wars in my life and it’s clear to me they expect a lot out of the people making these films and that this isn’t just such cash grab any more than ROTJ was a cash grab. Yes, movies like this are supposed to make money but if they truly didn’t believe that Star Wars films needed to be at a higher caliber than the average blockbuster they would have hired guys like Stephen Sommers or Brett Rattner and not even had a story group or worked with guys like Ardnt or Kasdan at all. They wouldn’t have booted directors for delivering shoddy work. They wouldn’t be starting over from being unhappy about the scripts following Fisher’s passing.

Also, some Disney movies and comic book films from Marvel have been worse reviewed than the best of their stuff... obliterating the narrative on critics and there are plenty of critics who’d just watch opening night and slam out of anger if they felt truly frustrated by Disney. The fact of the matter is that Disney gets good reviews all the way back to Snow White through the Lion King through the live action Jungle Book remake through Guardians of the Galaxy because they spend the resources to bring in supremely talented people and foster an environment where expectations are high and have strong quality control where they aren’t afraid to start over or delay things to get it right.

 

The biggest reason I can see for the lack of cohesion is because George Lucas wrote the plot for ST. Someone else twisted some things around, and inserted different characters, but at it's bare bones, the ST is the OT. The writers may be talented. I honestly don't know, but they're only putting in the minimalist amounts of effort, and this can either be a result of rushing or laziness.

* Antagonist group assaults rebel base.
* Rebel group evacuates base during antagonist assault instead of having the resources to successfully defend a fortified position.
* Antagonist fleet chases rebels through space.
* Hyperspace travel is neutralized. (For all intents and purposes, it is a non factor in the rebel escape)
* Protagonist gets jedi training from old hermit.
* Rebels seek aid from a new ally, who then betrays them to the antagonist.
* Protagonist loses access to lightsaber
* Antagonist invites protagonist to join the dark side ...

This synopsis fits two movies, so one of them is unoriginal. Anyone who has it in them to be this unoriginal isn't going to use their time worrying about cohesion.

When TFA premiered 2 years ago, and the plot was based heavily on ANH, I didn't mind. I thought they would depart from that approach with TLJ. I didn't want a weird retelling of the entire OT.
What makes it worse is when important characters like Snoke and Rey seem like no effort at all was expended on their developing who they are.
I have little doubt that Episode IX will be strongly influenced by the plot of RotJ, and that all the production teams, except for the writing team, will pay excruciatingly close attention to every detail.

Digital artists and set designers put so much work into creating amazing new worlds, and someone with a pencil who is literally paid to do an even more important but no more difficult job finds it too hard to engage their imagination enough to write something original that does justice to the CG.