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Senate The Concept of "Bipartisanship" and Alternatives

Discussion in 'Community' started by Emperor Ferus, May 11, 2020.

  1. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    There's no room for bipartisanship when one of the two parties is a proto-fascist party. And it says a lot about how screwed up a country has become when they're better off being functionally a one-party state for the near future...
     
  2. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    You guys were right with your posts back in May. I don't know what I was thinking by asking.


    We really might be better as two nations. Plenty of room even in half of our current geographical landscape.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  3. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
    Or maybe it's really time for the U.S. to get a serious third political party with a very solid popular base and political program. This bipartisan political system is really showing its age and, from an outsider's view, no longer seems sustainable when compared to other advanced countries.
     
  4. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    And this time, try and get a serious third party without a civil war, please...
     
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  5. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    What would that accomplish? You'd still have the same voters and the same power brokers. When the dust settles, the only thing that will have changed is the name of one of the parties.
     
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  6. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    If the democrats win in Georgia Bipartisanship should die.
     
  7. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    The Republicans said it's already dead.
     
  8. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Well the only reason we need it is to pass laws in a split congress
     
  9. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    The entire system is broken. It fundamentally does not work. Functionally, the checks and balances just mean that, if a party doesn't have control of a branch, then the government just can't do anything.
     
  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    The US constitution is built around rational consensus reached by logical argument by reasonable individuals - of course, all those ideal individuals were slave-owning white blokes - which breaks down when one group decides the other is demonic evil incarnate.

    The other problem? Too many politicians are evil incarnate.
     
  11. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Republican policy drives income inequality. Income inequality drives the partisan divide. Whenever Democrats seek a middle road cooperating with Republicans: that drives more income inequality. And that drives the partisan divide. Bipartisanship in my lifetime got us Clintoneseque welfare reform and finance deregulation. The ACA is the most significant legislation passed in my lifetime that slightly bucked the trend, and the fight to kill it will go on until it succeeds. The partisan divide is an accelerating negative feedback loop caused by lack of shared experience among Americans. The middle class is emptying out. We keep legislating a larger share of the pie to the top .01%.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  12. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I think the system is working more-or-less how it's designed, though of course the delusional Framers had a more orderly and dignified oligarchy in mind. Most of the populist energy to make 90% of Americans' lives better is beaten down by the Democrats and then skewered through the heart by McConnell. If we had a representative democracy that was actually representative, the Presidency, the Senate and the Supreme Court would not be held by the people who hold those offices now.

    Also the thread title makes me laugh every time I see it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  13. Adam of Nuchtern

    Adam of Nuchtern Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Let it die. Kill it if you have to.
     
  14. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    I still think a Korea type solution should not be out of the question.


    My ideal solution: Democratic and Republican representatives sign a mutual separation treaty.


    Leftists and rightists on both sides are given a year to move to the other half if they live in a part of the country that does not align with their views. Then, we seal the border with our right-wing neighbor.

    None of our business how they structure their government, but our relations with them will depend on their human rights policies.


    We replace our Constitution with a new one, and we restructure our government. We make taking care of society’s less fortunate an inherent part of our society, as well as heavy corporate restriction. Because of this, I imagine most neoliberals will be happier in the right-wing half, if they are welcome by whatever government is formed there.
    We make healthcare a right, but we would need to incentivize doctors to make quality healthcare goods. The wealthy who choose to live in our society (a good number of rich celebrities are left-wing and would probably be unwelcome in a Trumpite society) would pay a good amount of their salaries via tax. The richer, the more you pay. There will still be a market, but with a catch. Some leftists might disagree with me, but I am open to discussion about an ideal market system.


    We do not disarm our military completely. I feel as though the left-wing half will receive support from the international community, especially the EU. The other side will have Russia and China maybe if Trump remains an influence.
    We keep ourselves prepared if the right wingers attack, but we do not declare war on them. Again, I am open to debate about that.
    Finally, we encourage any immigrants to come to our side of America rather than the right-wing side, as they will be treated far more humanely by us.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  15. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Yes, we should have a Korea-type situation, as though Korea was partitioned voluntarily and not by outside powers playing their geopolitical games.

    EDIT: I'm strongly disagreeing with you, by the way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  16. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Bi-partisanship always seems to work just fine when it's time for a Wall Street bailout. Maybe the problem is that most people don't have enough money to buy off politicians.
     
  17. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    So I'm hearing that the post-WWII national consensus was the exception not the rule, and that national politics devolved into partisan warfare pretty much from the moment the Constitution was ratified. And I guess they never resolved it...just kicked the can down the road until here we are today.

    You mean positive feedback loop. A negative feedback loop is one that checks itself, while a positive feedback loop is one that spirals out of control.

    Czechoslovakia split peacefully, didn't it? I mean, I know this is the one rare instance where partition went smoothly and peacefully, but maybe we should take a hard look at what they did right?
     
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  18. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    yes thank you!
     
  19. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Is it better to keep it the way it is?

    You said above that the thread title makes you laugh, so I assume bipartisanship is a no-go for you.

    I only said Korea because they've remained divided for 70 years without nuking each other to death. I'm open to solutions besides my own.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  20. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Jesus Christ. Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Does that give you a clue as to how the situation is different? (Not that I'm a big fan of nationalism.)

    Yes. Your proposal is completely unworkable, fantastical, glosses over the real problems, and would cause untold mass suffering.

    Bipartisanship particularly over the past 40 years-- and I'm not talking about things like individual Senators working to stop the war against Yemen but truly bipartisan initiatives-- has only ever been to **** over the working majority of this country in favor of capital. I'm in favor of power being exercised to help people and power being shared democratically. That is an uphill battle, but no imaginary lines on maps are going to solve the struggle between the haves and the have-nots.

    The partition was not along neat political lines but rather according to the zones of occupation agreed upon by the USA and USSR who then installed their favored rulers. The partition and the war that solidified it killed millions and flattened cities and the trauma is still deeply felt among the population. I don't want a civil war driven by imperialism to be a model for any sort of future. That's insane.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  21. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Before that, you need to take a look at history, and notably at the fact that the two entities either had a separate history or were ruled under Austria (for Bohemia) and Hungary (for Slovakia) until 1918. They split for the first time in 1939, a result of the considerable weakening of the Czech component of the country after the Munich agreements. After its liberation, the reunified country only stayed nominally independent for three years before the coup of February 1948 (it was forced to back out of the Marshall plan by Moscow the year before). The communist regime collapsed in late 1989; the question then quickly became about whether there would be a federalized Czechoslovakia or two independent states. Disagreements in 1991 and 1992 between the political leaderships on either side did the rest, despite separation not actually being the majority sentiment, and in July 1992, the Slovaks declared independence; six days later, the Slovak and Czech leaderships formally agreed to dissolve the country.

    It's really not a situation applicable to the USA.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  22. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    I'm open to ideas besides secession, but I don't want a civil war here if it can be avoided.

    It just seems like the left and right (and the various points on the spectrum they occupy) want fundamentally different societies.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  23. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 9, 2000
    Here's a map (captioned in French) showing the Trump-dominated (in shades of red) and Biden-dominated (in shades of blue) counties, with major urban areas circled, look like and interweave (the map on top is distorted to reflect population, the second map shows proper geographical dimensions). There isn't really any making two countries out of the mess this shows - doubly true when you look at how some major cities and their hinterlands take severely differing alignments.

    [​IMG]

    This is not a configuration that allows peaceful separation between two countries.
     
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  24. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Wealth inequality has been increasing in the United States for almost my entire life, and I'm not young. I've been alive for more than a fifth of the entire duration of the United States. My parents were young adults when the civil rights and voting rights acts were passed as well as for the establishment of Medicare. My grandparents were alive for the establishment of social security. The ACA is easily the least momentous and comprehensive and helpful of all those accomplishments, and it's the only one that doesn't predate my birth. I've also lived to see the decline and fall of organized labor, backtracking on affirmative action and the unnecessary and debilitating incarceration of a vast swath of the population.

    I don't want a civil war either but a dissolution of the United States might allow some parts of the former country to craft better and more equitable societies.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
  25. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    I agree with your last sentence @Rylo Ken

    I suggest giving people time to migrate to the part of the country subscribing closer to their political preference (a year seems reasonable) and then establishing a new Constitution for the left-wing side.
    I think a lot of conservatives would agree about separating from us.

    I'm just an average Joe on a Star Wars fansite. I'm not going to enact any such thing. It's just my own suggestion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020