Saga The Dark Side - is it evil?

The Baby Ludi case was "found a "lost" child - claimed them - and refused to give them back"

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baby_Ludi

The Jedi Path seemed to go with "Parents are required by law to turn child over to Jedi for training, if Jedi choose to demand it"

Though I'm guessing even then a parent could resign their Republic citizenship and emigrate somewhere, like Hutt Space.

 

Based on what?

Nothing in the movies goes to clarify if they ask for parental consent or if they just take them. The Anakin situation is an indication they don't just go in and snatch them, but that difference matters little to the child. Would you consider it morally just if you had been forced into the military from you were a baby?

It's a commitment not easily broken. That doesn't exactly sound like you can just pack up and leave. And you are ignoring the effect of basically being brainwashed from infant hood. Do children growing up in hardcore religious homes have a free choice to leave? Theoretically yes, but not in practice.

You can't say it as if it was true, because we have no evidence it actually is.

They have enough problem with it to ban marriage and refuse to train older kids. The situation with Luke goes to prove their view isn't necessarily correct.

How will he learn this in ESB if he doesn't go to confront him? Yoda and Obi Wan are not telling.

The problem is the traditional Jedi did in no way act like that. There's not single indication a Jedi would lay down his weapon when confronted with a Sith in the PT. On the contrary they go out of their way to destroy them. Mace is even willing to resort to plain murder.

Anger fuels all of his attacks on Vader and the Emperor. Ok, it may not follow, but it's an indication the anger helped him. Vader is literally stunned when he comes out swinging full of rage.

How does he pretend?

The Jedi stance as he sees it. That's not to say it's the same stance as in the PT, which it clearly isn't.

It's irrelevant what he calls himself. What matters is what he is. He's certainly no PT Jedi.

That depends on your definition of the Force and its will.

Still no evidence that is what's actually going on.

And I've clearly stated that view got nothing to do with numbers.

It's the same principal position in that one side or the other is responsible. That is not my position.

And how does Sidious become evil if not for incorrect thinking?

 

That's essentially just running away though. I wouldn't call it freedom of choice exactly. More like limitations on control.

 

If you're interested in knowing exactly what The Jedi Path said on the subject:

The Jedi Path
pp141-143

ENLISTING NEW MEMBERS
BY MORRIT CH'GALLY, JEDI RECRUITER

The Jedi, as you well know, forbid romantic attachment. We do not marry, nor do we breed powerful lineages from our greatest members How then do we survive from generation to generation, or rebuild our numbers after the decimation of war?

The Force supplies the answer. Any being, regardless of homeworld, species, wealth, or the social status of his or her family, can be born with the ability to touch the Force. These beings have a gift, and if we don't teach them how to do it, the Jedi Order is responsible for squandering that gift.

In fact, those who don't learn to harness their talents at a young age may come to view the Force as a curse. On some planets, those who are Force-sensitive may be persecuted as demonic magicians, or may become so enamored with their otherworldly powers that they may become exactly the monsters their neighbours fear. Once they have reached this state, it is difficult to bring them into the light of Jedi teachings, which in past decades has made them easy marks for the Sith.

The responsible use of power takes a lifetime to perfect, and therefore the Jedi Order only rarely accepts members who are older than a few years. Most of you came to the Temple as infants.

Locating Force-strong newborns is a straightforward process, at least within the Republic's borders. Mandatory blood tests performed at birth record the concentration of midi-chlorians in an infant's cells, and positive results are forwarded to the Jedi Temple for follow-up. Because midi-chlorian analysis is not always definitive - particularly among older children or beings with unusual physiologies - special tools or puzzles may be employed instead. These include the testing screen, a tool that records a subject's ability to read minds or view images remotely, and the mental maze, a test which determines whether a subject can use rudimentary telekinesis.

MISPERCEPTIONS OF THE JEDI

The job of a Jedi Recruiter can be thankless. While many families are proud to have their offspring chosen by the Force, the practical reality of taking a child away from his or her parents is messy and unpleasant. We Jedi firmly believe that Force-strong beings have a right to receive the best training available, and our way requires shunning emotional commitment, especially toward one's birth family. Yet something that seems self-evident to us has been characterized as monstrous in the Holonet. I admit that while we recruiters are vital to the continuation of the Order, we don't do much to burnish the Order's reputation.

The following are perennial slurs levelled against the Order. As a Jedi Knight you must do your part to counter these lies, not by arguing but by setting an example of selflessness and service.

The Jedi are sorcerers. Popular on primitive worlds and among adherents of certain religious sects, this belief betrays a misunderstanding of the Force's presence throughout the universe. The Force is a real, demonstrable phenomenon, not a twist of forbidden "magic". Through our connection to the Force, the Jedi are the agents of life itself.

The Jedi are kidnappers. An all too familiar accusation for Jedi Recruiters, this charge springs from the pain of emotional attachment. It is also technically false. Within the Republic, the Jedi Order has the legal authority to take custody of Force-sensitives, and some Masters have argued that the Force's presence in a child indicates that child's consent to join the Order even before he or she is able to speak.

The Jedi are brainwashers. The belief is in part due to the secrecy surrounding Jedi training and in part due to a widespread misunderstanding of the so-called Jedi mind trick. Some claim that the Order is responsible for mass hypnosis and mind-control. Patently untrue.

The Jedi are elitists. It is fashionable to equate the presence of midi-chlorians with genetic superiority, but the Force chose to manifest itself through the symbiosis in our cells. The Force can call anyone, and is thus the very definition of egalitarian.

 

Why did the The Jedi Path go with that?

EDIT: Oh, wait this is the book that stated that "Jedi brute" was an in-universe term used by the Jedi instead of a gameplay term for a type of enemy so think I will take what it says with a pinch of salt.

 

This endnote for the book discusses the reasons:

http://geekosity.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/endnotes-for-star-wars-jedi-path-part-4.html

p. 141: Enlisting New Members. In this section I tried to be as sympathetic to the Jedi as possible. If you get into their heads you can understand the intellectual argument for taking babies away from their families with no opportunity for the parents or children to see each other again. Here's a few of their reasons:

1. The Force is strong with these children, and if they aren't trained they will be a danger to themselves and others (including their parents).
2. The Force has CHOSEN these children. To ignore the opportunity to train them would be an act of defiance against the will of the Force.
3. Emotional commitments can lead to selfishness and favoritism. Jedi should aspire to serve all citizens of the galaxy equally.
4. Many families would be acculturated to the idea that having a Force-strong child is a great honor. On many planets I can imagine neighborhood block parties being thrown to welcome the Jedi Master who has arrived to claim the child.

With these points in mind, the position of the Jedi is internally consistent and makes some sense. However, it's quite obvious that many parents would take a dim view of this practice. Or that families who were initially very proud to send their children off to the Temple might later have second thoughts. The following section, Misperceptions of the Jedi, presents the accepted counter-arguments to public accusations like "the Jedi are baby stealers" and "the Jedi are brainwashers." Who's right? Obi-Wan, who spent his entire life in the Temple, is convinced that many truths depend on your point of view.

 

I could certainly walk with that Iron Lord. It does work within the context of the films (well that's given since it's an EU book). But I'm glad it doesn't, because it takes a much too definite view of the Force. Like the Force meant for there to be a Jedi Tempel and an Order, and all the children has to become part of this for their own good. It's VERY convenient in light of certain criticisms around the subject. In the end it limits the scope I think. Thankfully the films as is doesn't though, which is why we can have all these discussions

 

Can't get edit to work here. The second sentence is meant to be "glad the films doesn't take that explicit view".

 

To me it feels like the real life author have not really put his mind into that the GFFA have cultures that are notably different from his own, am alone in this?

My problem is that it seems that we mostly see those who dislike the jedi, says they are baby 'nappers or just feel sorrow for deciding that their child’s path lay with the jedi.

 

Timothy Zahn gave us a family in Outbound Flight (the Jinzlers) employed at the Temple who were extremely enthusiastic about their child being recruited - even though the Jedi fired them in order to minimise contact.

It's an odd choice - but I can live with it. Jedi may have no interest in creating euphemistic job descriptions.

If you have a group of them - would they be a Brute Squad, a la The Princess Bride?

Miracle Max: Beat it, or I'll call the Brute Squad!
Fezzik: I'm on the Brute Squad.
Miracle Max: (double take) You are the Brute Squad.

 

I'm not sure what the quotation marks are for around "found" and "lost." Jedi rescue workers did find a child, in the ruins of a city destroyed by an earthquake, and since they couldn't find any family they assumed she was an orphan. Since the mom wasn't even in the same city at the time - she'd been injured and taken to a nearby town to recover - it's not like that was an unreasonable assumption.

 

Nope, it is as Lucas said. Not about the people directly, but the Force at large. Luke doesn't create balance, Anakin does by killing Palaptine and restoring the good and evil of the cosmos that is the Force. The Force didn't wipe out the Jedi, Anakin did because he chose to run from his destiny by siding with Palpatine who offered him power to protect that which he coveted. The Force didn't make Anakin do what he did, he did it on his own because he wanted to. There is a prediction that says balance will return when Anakin eliminates the Sith. If Anakin had killed Palpatine in ROTS, when he was still a Jedi, he would have brought balance then and there. But he doesn't because he was selfish and greedy. Because he was filled with fear for his loved ones and chose to use his anger and hate to become strong enough in the Force to try and save Padme.

It doesn't matter about traditions, what matters is that Luke is a Jedi like Anakin was. Anakin was a good man once and Luke himself is a good man deep down, which is why he rejects Palpatine's offer.

Except there were other stories that showed that the Jedi had consent outside of Qui-gon.

The Force is affected by everyone in the galaxy, but it is the Sith's actions during this time period that causes the imbalance. They blur the lines between good and evil through the creation of the Clone Wars, by tricking the Senate into giving them control of the galaxy and eliminating the Jedi, thus they are able to unbalance the Force and take over. In the old EU, there were still Sith Lords out there after ROTJ and the Force was still in balance. It was the actions of Darth Bane's legacy that carried through to Palpatine that disrupted the balance of the Force. Not the Sith in general. There can be Sith in the ST and the Force will still be in balance. And no that's not a spoiler, that's just speculation.

It's not brainwashing. There were twenty Jedi who left and those who did so had grown tired of living a life of service. The Jedi who haven't quit don't do so because of brainwashing, but because they believed wholeheartedly in what they did. The Jedi don't force their members to stay, nor do they brainwash them. All they do is teach them to have compassion for their fellow man. To not use fear, anger and hatred when they use the Force. And to avoid attachments, least they be used to turn them to the dark side. Dooku, the only one that's known to have quit, only did so because he fell to the dark side.

True, but that may not always work out right either. The Jedi had believed and quite correctly that attachments lead to the dark side since so many had fallen because of it. It falls to strength of character to avoid falling. The Jedi Order were correct about attachments, which is why Luke lets go of his fears for his loved ones and stops fighting.

The thing is that the Sith have to die. What Luke did is something that Obi-wan should have done, but he didn't. Obi-wan gave up on Anakin and fought him. Luke refused to fight Vader because he still believed in the good man that was his father. That doesn't mean every Jedi should do that, but in circumstances like this, it was the best method.

And Luke was wrong, because he let his attachment to Leia fuel his emotions and drive him on to try and kill his father.

Which also came from "Shadow Hunter" where the same issue came up with Lorn Pavan's son Jax being tested and admitted as a Jedi, while Lorn himself was kicked to the curb as an employee. He himself had negative feelings for the Jedi afterwards. Not to mention that the Bardotta took issue with the Jedi over how they recruited Jedi, which was brought up later on.

 

Did not know that, why have nobody mentioned it before? Also need to read that book,

Maybe but to me the jedi creating a group within themselves that they call "jedi brute" don't really fit my interpretation of the jedi, but that is just me.

Also nice The Princess Bride reference.

 

But Luke is essential to Anakin's turn. If it doesn't play out the way it did all meaning is lost. He can't murder Palpatine in his office. It must be an act of self defense on behalf of someone other than himself. That's why those moments at the end of ROTJ carries so much weight. He is making a real, altruistic sacrifice there.

Since there is a prophecy the Force must know that this will play out the way it does. And if the Force creates Anakin it does so with the knowledge of the acts he will do. The Force does give them the illusion of choice, but given that it also knows exactly how things will play out means that it's just that, an illusion. You can't have the Force be all knowing without also giving it responsibility for all the bad things that transpire. For me it seems clear the Force wanted this. Anakin turning to the dark side is not a mistake on his part, it's how we get to the necessary end point of the saga.

That doesn't mean the old Jedi order as a whole was "right". Anakin is a poor representation of that breed. So is Luke. If the Jedi had been like Qui Gon I would look at it differently.

Of course it is. Why else do they refuse to take older children? Because their minds have already been molded. They require a clean slate. If it was just about teaching they would take in force sensitives of all ages. It's clearly about controlling their mindset from the very beginning. The fact that Dooku is the only one we know about who quit is a pretty good indication that there is a strong group mentality there, brought on by the heavy conditioning.

That is a good point, but it is a position they take out of fear. They fear Jedi will fall to the dark side if they don't have a large degree of control over them (with good reason), but that's the kind of pre emptive mind set I feel is beneath a true Jedi. A true Jedi would deal with a fallen comrade when and if it happens. They would also have faith enough in their own teachings to assume that the large majority will not do so, because they are offering a true and just way to live. This whole we will not allow you to have attachments and we will not allow you to make a conscious choice to join us sounds much like the ways of a totalitarian regime who don't trust their citizens. "We will deny you freedom because we don't trust you to do the right thing on your own". That kind of thing. Not what I would consider a true enlightened position.

Those are contradictory. Either the Sith must die, or you should try and turn them back to the light. Yes, if you are open to both strategies that is sound, but the Jedi are clearly not open to turning someone back. As far as we know Luke is the only one to really attempt this. That's a marked difference in philosophy. Luke is essentially putting everything on the line, his friends, his own life, to attempt something he has little reason to believe in apart from mere faith in the light. A true Jedi.

That may have been the view of the Jedi at one point, but by the time the PT rolls around they are clearly ingrained in their absolute perception of the Sith as pure evil. Luke and Anakin shows them they were arrogant and wrong. The Jedi's absolute antagonism towards those who reject their teachings is part of what brought the conflict along in the first place. When it comes to Sith they don't just defend against aggression, they go in for the kill with the same active aggression as their opponent.

Yes, but also became more powerful in that moment than we had ever seen him before. From being totally dominated by Vader in Empire, he goes on to dominate him. That shows anger can be useful in the face of great adversary.

 

Nope, you're definitely not alone in this, Gamiel. There was some rather vigorous discussion of that very point in the later parts of this thread.

 

Prospecting on Subtyrrell I think the word you want to use is indoctrination not brainwashing

Thanks

 

Did you forget, or conveniently exclude, the Lost Tribe of the Sith in the Rule of Two Era? Granted they weren't spacefaring, but they did exist. If you're including EU in your description, gotta include them all. Also, what about the Dathomirians? Or the One Sith? Or even fallen Jedi / dark Jedi? Really there's thousands upon thousands of dark Force users during the ROT Era!

 

It wouldn't be an act of murder if Anakin rejects Palpatine's offer of turning to the dark side, which then leads to a battle between them and ends in Anakin slicing him in two. The only reason Anakin backs off is due to his selfish nature and unwillingness to let go of Padme.

There is no illusion of choice. Lucas was specific about the fact that in the Saga, the characters have to find their own destiny and choose to follow it or not. Anakin chooses not to follow his destiny in ROTS, but winds up doing so in ROTJ, when he chooses to save his son. Anakin ran from his destiny because he was selfish. Luke tries to run because he doesn't want to kill his father, but chooses to accept it to save his father.

Again, it's not about the Order. It's about who his father was and who Luke is now. It doesn't matter what the Jedi Order was during the last hundred years of its existence, only what the Jedi Order represented. They were the guardians of peace and justice for a thousand generations. Luke looked up to his father long before he knew who he really was and as he told Obi-wan and Yoda, he wanted to be a Jedi like his father was.

LUKE: "I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father."


YODA: "Why wish you become a Jedi? Hm?"

LUKE: "Mostly because of my father, I guess."

Jedi are recruited from birth because they will not have developed an emotional attachment to their family. This makes it easier to teach them the ways of the Force and the Jedi Code, while also making sure that the child understands the dangers of the dark side. When Luke was trained, he had trouble believing in the Force which made it difficult to train him. By growing up with knowledge of the Force, like Obi-wan did, he was able to believe in it and thus was proficient at using it by the time he was thirteen and paired up with Qui-gon. It's the same way that you learn a second language far easier growing up in a bilingual home compared to learning it at an older age. Dooku turned because he never conquered the darkness within him and Palpatine exploited his anger towards the Jedi Order.

The parents are the ones who give consent, just like it is in the real world for all things. Our parents made our choices for us with our religion, when we started school, how we are schooled, where we are schooled, where we live, when we learn to drive, how we dress, what we eat, how we're cared for medically, etc. Are our parents wrong to decide our fates? When a Jedi is old enough, they can choose to leave or stay. Many don't because they believe in the Jedi Order and what they do. As to attachments, everything at some point has a rule that you have to abide by. Religions in the real world have rules as well regarding families and celibacy.

It's not that the Jedi were arrogant in believing that it was impossible for a Jedi turned Sith to turn back from the dark side. Given the nature of the films and the cartoons, it appears as if it was something that was impossible. What Obi-wan should have done was hold on to the idea that there was still good in him, but his years of training and understanding of the Sith clouded his judgement. Because Luke was raised differently, he could have faith in his father because he still had compassion for him. Obi-wan had lost his compassion for him.

Which was wrong. Luke shouldn't have fought Vader and given in to his anger. Doing so nearly damned him.

"Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he’s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he fights his father he’s fighting in anger, therefore begins to use the dark side of the Force, and therefore sort of succumbs to the dark side of the Force. In The Empire Strikes Back we had them confront each other and fight together. But in this film Luke has become more mature so that now he knows he shouldn’t be fighting him—that is the path to the dark side. So it’s basically a confrontation between two people and one of them doesn’t want to fight, and the other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end when he gives up and they really do fight, what’s happening there is that ultimately Luke is turning to the dark side, and all is going to be lost."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004

 

But the entire point is he is not as powerful as Palpatine. Nobody is. If you come at him with power he's got you exactly where he wants you. This is why Anakin killing him as an act of Sith betrayal is the only way to go. I think the point is made in all of the films that Sidious can not be defeated in battle. He is the only one who never loses a duel.

If there is real choice there can not be a prophecy and a chosen one. Both those concepts rely on a predetermined future. To use a quote from the Matrix "no one can see past choices they don't understand". Meaning Sidious can't predict his own death because he doesn't understand the motivations for the choices Luke and Anakin makes. But just because they are free to choose, doesn't mean they will choose something different in an identical situation. Hence "illusion", because they will always do what their nature demands. Real choice to me implies that Luke in an alternative universe will choose to join Sidious after defeating Vader. I don't buy that, since it lessens his entire integrity. Reducing his choice to mere randomness. I think Lucas' point is that nobody is forcing Luke and Anakin to do the things they do, but that doesn't mean things don't transpire exactly as the Force has predicted.

My point is that Luke's perceptions about the Jedi are just that. Him wanting to become what he considers a Jedi doesn't mean he actually becomes a "typical PT Jedi". Jedi is not like working at a warehouse where it is very clear if you are one or not. Jedi is an ideal, a mind set, but that doesn't mean Luke and Mace Windu are practicing it in the same way. Both Luke, Qui Gon and Anakin are at odds with the "PT Jedi", and I think that is shown for a reason.

We both agree on the reasons for doing it like that, but Luke and Anakin are given exception from these rules. I think that distinction is made for a reason. To show that the old Jedi weren't perfect. Isn't it commonly held that the reason Luke can sense the good in Vader is because he grew up in a family? The main thing the old Jedi tried to avoid? Same with Vader, and together they eradicate the Sith. Seems an indictment on the old ways to me.

The difference is growing up with your family is what nature deems correct. You birth them, you bring them up (because they are unable to do so on their own). Adopted children are known to develop feelings of abandonment in finding out their real parents left them. This is because the biological bond is strong, and for the Jedi and parents to deny them that, well let's just say I don't consider it very saintly or healthy for the mind. Especially when we have Luke as a perfectly respectable Jedi to show that there are valid alternatives to the approach.

But it is arrogant when Anakin is unable to turn simply on the strength of him being a good person at heart and having a bond to his son. His force ability have little to do with it. Clearly the implication is that others can do this as well. Anakin Skywalker isn't exactly shown to be a paragon of will power and virtue. Yet he is able to turn away from what the Jedi view as absolute and unchangeable.

It is easy to defend the Jedi's choice to teach children from birth if the dark side is unchangeable, but if their denying those children the parental bond is part of the reason it appears unchangeable, well then the Jedi are in fact part of the problem. In their quest to deny attachment they are in fact making the hold of the dark side stronger. If you are already detached from people it seems a lot easier to detach from something else, such as morals and integrity.

But what happens if he doesn't fight? Vader kills him and that's that? Or Vader refuses to kill him, but that leaves no room to take Sidious by surprise. The only way this plays out is the way it played out. Granted, this does not mean Luke or Lucas views using the dark side as acceptable to a Jedi, but inadvertently or not, a point is made given that he does so and it's so pivotal to the resolution. In either case an argument can be made that in order for Luke to really reject the dark side, he had to dance with the dark side.

 

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

The only reason Anakin beat him as he did in ROTJ, is because he doesn't have the power to beat him in battle. But he did before his injuries.

1. The prophecy was true in "The Matrix" films because Neo stops the war, but does so by not repeating the same mistakes that his predecessors did. The Architect and Smith couldn't understand choice, because they're programs. The Oracle was created to understand which is why she believed in choice and Neo was a human with the Matrix code within him, who could understand what choice is. Neo knew that he was going to save Trinity over Zion, he just didn't know why he was going to do it until the Architect presented the catch-22 scenario.

2. There is choice in "Star Wars".

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not."

--George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

Palpatine knows of the prophecy regarding the Chosen One as he tells Yoda during their fight, as revealed in the novelization. He knows that Vader will one day conspire to kill him just as he did with Maul against Plagueis. That is the way of the Sith.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

I never said that he became a typical Jedi. I said that he is a Jedi like his father was and his father, by the way, was still wrong. That was the point.

The Jedi way was wrong, but it was also right. That was Lucas's point.

"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

"It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.

"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.
One can love, but one must be able to let go when the time comes. Children do develop abandonment issues, but as the Jedi training shows, they can learn to accept that their parents wished better for their children than they can give them. Hence parents who have children but are unable to raise them, have given them up for adoption because they're not ready for that burden. It is a two way street. That's why adoption exists.

Not really, because it takes something important to trigger it.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

In Vader's case, it was because he felt guilty for his crimes. Because there was still good in him that Luke could reach him. The Jedi of old couldn't feel that in the Sith, which is why death was the only other option. Obi-wan had faith in Anakin when he left for Utapau and lost that faith when he saw the security footage. But Palpatine was beyond that because he was evil to his core. Dooku was lost which is why he fell.

When the Jedi did allow attachments, it wasn't enough to stop the Sith. Much less bring them back. It takes more than mere attachments, it takes having that spark of good left.

That is only what happened as a result of his not being fully trained to deal with this. But it could go other ways. Luke could continue to defend himself as he did on the stairs. The point was that he had to show Vader that he is honest and sincere in his not wanting to fight, much less kill him. He could still do that without getting angry over his attachments. It just so happens that it is something that Vader recognizes in himself, because he did the same thing to Dooku. Anakin couldn't bring himself to have compassion for Dooku because of his anger over the threats to Padme, to Ahsoka, to Obi-wan and the galaxy. But Luke could forgive his father for every single crime that he had ever committed and show him compassion.

 

That's not in the proper context. Lucas said he would go on to become stronger, as Sidious himself admits, but he's not there yet in ROTS. In that film he can't even defeat Obi Wan.

I don't think we disagree here, we just have a little different interpretation of the word choice. When I say illusion of choice I'm not saying people aren't responsible for their actions, only that for the Force to make these predictions there must be some predictiveness to people doing what they do. The architect understands choice, he just doesn't understand human emotive reasons for making it. Like Sidious can't understand why someone would sacrifice themselves for "morals" when all logic and self interest point the other way. But the Oracle, if not understanding it, was intuitive enough to see the possibility. I say the same goes for Luke. It doesn't matter if the all knowing Yoda and Obi Wan says it is impossible, he feels it to be true. It is a choice, but it is one he will always make in that situation. And the Force knows this, because the Force understands the full spectrum of life.

And my point was that Luke as a Jedi will be different than the old Jedi. Even Obi Wan and Yoda have undergone this transformation since they willingly let Luke live with a family and make his own conscious choice to join the Jedi. That is a marked difference from the old Orders way of doing things.

Yes, they are right in their assumptions about attachment, but wrong in thinking that forming them will necessarily lead to the dark side. In both Luke and Vader's case those attachments are, ultimately, used for good. And the suggestion is also strong that they would not be able to make those choices without those attachments. Yoda and Obi Wan appears to agree since they allow their last hope to form them also.

The Jedi's strong belief in a "pure mind" is fundamentalist in that regard though, since they assume attachment is automatically bad, and use it as justification for denying it. In that sense they view adoption as preferable to natural family, and to me that seems dark side related. Trying to superimpose their "correct" view over the Force. After all, the Force is birthing all these children to all these families. Why do the Jedi assume it is wrong for them to grow up in them? In any other aspect of society, if we compare it to Earth life, there is a pretty strong belief in letting people make important choices when they are mature enough to do so. Like drinking, smoking or taking a plastic operation. If parents impose those things on their children it is viewed with pretty strong disdain. Are the Jedi any different here? Do the ends justify the means?

That does seem sort of easy to remedy though, if we use Vader as an example. Essentially having a close family member show that they care for you, that they are willing to sacrifice themselves for you even though you have done nothing to deserve it. And this doesn't have to be blood family, if Obi Wan had shown the same compassion and faith it might have worked. Instead of saying I will do what I must, he could have said, I will not fight you Anakin. Then spend the entire fight defending and trying to bring him back. And when he lays there in the lava defeated, take him with you and hope for the best. All of these actions might have been enough. After all, major part of the reason Anakin turns is that he knows there is no way the Jedi will forgive him after contributing to Windu's death. Would he have joined Sidious if he knew that the Mace "accident" could be redeemed? If he thought the Jedi would ever allow Palpatine to live? Would he have joined if Mace followed the proper Jedi way and arrested Sidious instead of attempting to murder him? The exact same thing Anakin beat himself up over with Dooku? I don't see the PT Jedi helping things all that much here.

The old Sith destroyed themselves because their extreme selfishness is not a good match for team work. The new Sith is defeated for underestimating the team work of others. The Jedi as an order have never really defeated them. They defeat themselves. So in that sense, what is the big fear in having a few depraved individuals like Palpatine fall to it? Isn't this the will of the Force? Isn't that why the Jedi exists, to serve as a counterbalance to this evil?

But you can't defeat Sidious unless he believes Vader is still on his team. Luke and Vader have no way of defending against his force lightning. Vader might turn in any case, but it won't bring him in a position to take out Sidious. And defeating the Sith is more important to the prophecy and galaxy than redeeming Vader.

I disagree on the Dooku situation. I see an Anakin who was about to take him into custody before being egged on by the Chancellor. He even challenges a direct order from him for a moment. Not that the Jedi are supposed to follow his orders, but he is a friend and a man of great authority, so it does carry a lot of weight. If Anakin had wanted to kill Dooku, and is allowed to do so by the leader of the republic, with no witnesses to the act, why hesitate?

Would he have killed Dooku if they had an attachment? If he was his father? Doubtful. I see him as very similar to Luke in this regard, he was just thrust in very different circumstances.

 

Appeal to ignorance.

More appeal to ignorance. In the only case we see in the movies the parent clearly gives consent.

You don't say?

If the Chosen One can be credibly threatened with expulsion, it stands to reason that a run-of-the-mill Jedi could get out.

That goes both ways. We have no evidence that "everything you see was willed by the Force" is true.

None of that contradicts what I said. Banning marriage is about attachment.

The films say that he was not to be told before his training was complete, not that he was never going to be told.

Which makes Luke's position more "extreme" than the "extreme" Jedi position, working against the argument that Luke represents a balance between two extremes.

I mean in the long term.

Nothing could be less clear.

Yes, he's more nonviolent. Again, that works against the assumption that he will act as a dark Jedi going forward.

It doesn't depend on the definition of the Force, just on the question of whether or not everything that happens is the will of the Force.

Just the evidence that's in film dialogue and statements by Lucas, as opposed to the "Jedi unbalance the Force" position which has no support anywhere.

But it conveniently comes to the same false conclusion as the numbers-based view.

So because a Sith (1) wanted to throw off the balance and (2) figured out a way to do it, it somehow follows that a sheer number of Light-side Force-users who presumably don't want to throw off the balance and haven't figured out how to do it will unbalance the Force simply by existing? In logic they call this "assuming the conclusion".

Looks like there's some data conveniently missing here...

After Order 66 - 2 Jedi / 2 Sith - Force out of balance

After ROTJ - 1 Jedi ( not counting ghosts ) / 0 Sith - Force in balance

During PT - Thousands of Jedi / 2 Sith - Force out of balance toward the dark side, not toward the light side

The Force is neither light or dark overall because it comprises both aspects.

 

My old philosophy prof called it "table-banging".

 

It doesn't exactly represent a normal situation - the mother is a slave, the child is 10 rather than an infant - and it's not a Republic world anyway.

So it may not be enough to extrapolate from, to the situation for normal Force-sensitive infants born in the Republic.

 

And she recognizes he's special. From his fatherless birth to his ability to do supernatural things, she knows he is destined for more. I think she just wanted him to make the decision himself so he wouldn't feel like he was "taken" from her.