Saga The Dark Side - is it evil?

Is this a high school project now? I don't think it is too much to ask for people to put some weight behind their opinions.

Splitting up my statements so you can attack both? And you question my debating techniques?

We have no idea what Obi Wan means here apart from saying it won't be easy. He's clearly not liking it to quitting a normal job. If he was totally free to leave, why does Obi Wan say it won't be easy?

Of course it goes both ways, which is why I don't claim my statement to be fact.

And attachment is about emotion. Strongest type there is, and it is not allowed.

The films do not say that. Yoda says "unfortunate you're training was not complete, unfortunate you were not ready". In no way does he say with clarity he would be told after his training. Yoda and Obi Wan's secrecy goes to suggest otherwise you ask me. They go out of their way to hide this from him (lie).

Having faith in your father and your fellow man is extreme now? Non violence is extreme?

I've made it abundantly clear in several posts now how they significantly differ. Belief that people can be brought back for the DS, and belief that Force users should make their own choice on if to become a Jedi being the most central.

I've never suggested Luke will act as a Dark Jedi.

If one defining aspect of the Force is that it controls everything, well then of course it does.

More blanket statements. Actual evidence please, or there's not much for me to respond to.

How so?

 

He doesn't beat Obi-wan because he lets his anger get the best of him.

"One of the problems of Sith is that they are always quick to anger. This scene with her it was very important that we set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the generals in ANH. But at the same time he doesn’t kill her and he just causes her to faint, but you get to see that flash of anger which he now doesn’t have much control over. The whole point in a Jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he’s at a point where he can't control it at all and it's because of his need for his control for power and he gets very upset when he can't have it. And now he’s assuming that she’s with Obi wan, not necessarily in a love relationship or anything, in the basis that they are both on one side of the path and he’s going down the other."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

This and combined with his statements on Anakin's arrogance is why Obi-wan was able to beat him.

Luke feels that it is true that his father is good, because he felt a glimmer of good within Vader. But that's not the same as what Anakin did to the Jedi, which was born from his greed and his fear of being alone and a fear of failure to protect his loved ones.

But you're missing the point. A Jedi can have relationships with people, they just cannot be attached to them. Attachment is as Lucas defined it as the point where fear, greed, selfishness and jealousy leads to acts of violence fueled by anger and hatred. A Jedi without attachment is one who has let go of all those emotions, but still loves those that they care for. They're just not married and having children intentionally because their duty takes them away and it is easy for their relationships to be corrupted against them. Luke's relationships with Han and Leia are fine until he becomes fearful of losing them and that is what nearly damns him. By letting go of his fears, is he able to care for them the right way. Anakin loves his son, but as Lucas says, having a child should teach unconditional love. It should bring out the best in you.

The Jedi belief is the correct one because it comes down to what Qui-gon discovered.

QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed. You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."

Which was a belief of the Whills, a separate group of Force users who were dedicated to learning the ways of the Force and knew something that the Jedi didn't. Which means that the Jedi were on the right path with regards to feelings of attachment, selfishness and even desires for physical immortality. This is why Yoda underwent training by the Priestesses who showed him what he was not truly aware of as a Jedi and what he needed to know in order to prepare Luke. The Jedi took the children because they had believed and quite rightly, that attachments were too far ingrained by those trained as adults. What Yoda comes to learn is that it was good for a time, but it was not the only way and that if the Jedi had adapted during the time period between the Sith wars, they would have been ready. The Sith had adapted and the Jedi did not. This was covered in the novelization.

The problem with Obi-wan was that the Jedi had long given up hope that a Sith could turn away from the darkness. This is why Lucas didn't have Obi-wan and Qui-gon try to convert Maul back during their duel. Why Yoda, Obi-wan and Anakin don't say anything of the sort to Dooku. Why Obi-wan doesn't in his second fight with Vader. When it came to the first fight, Obi-wan had trouble with doing it because of his own attachment to Anakin, but also his sense of duty. As Lucas says on the commentary for ROTS, they're both fighting each other out of a sense of duty. A Jedi is trained to eliminate the Sith and a Sith is trained to eliminate all threats to them. Obi-wan doesn't want to fight Anakin because of their relationship, but he also knows that he has no choice. He tries to make him see the truth, but concludes that he is too far gone. And Anakin has such great anger and hate towards Obi-wan stemming back to when Shmi died and their issues during his training. At the end, Obi-wan cannot bring himself to feel compassion towards Anakin anymore.

As to Mace, it wasn't an accident. It was a deliberate choice that he made and the Council would see right through any attempt at lying. Anakin chooses to side with Palpatine afterwards because he knows that there is no going back. The Jedi cannot forgive an act of betrayal like that. Luke is in a different position because he wasn't there. He wasn't part of that. The only negative feelings he has towards Vader is the knowledge that he killed his father and then killed Obi-wan, the latter of which he sees. Once he learns the truth, he finds that he cannot bring himself to be angry at his father for what he did. He begins to understand why he fell to the dark side and only when he sees himself in his father, does he truly understand and finds it in his heart to forgive and to show compassion and mercy.

No, it isn't the will of the Force that the Sith exist. The Sith have larger ambitions that the Jedi, the Whills, the Priestesses, the Bardotta and even the Nightsisters/Nightbrothers don't have. The Jedi believe in using their powers to help others. The Bardotta believe in just studying the Force and staying out of political affairs. Mother Talzin never lead her children, nor her students on a galaxy wide conflict. But the Sith were the worst of the lot. They were Jedi who believed that they should rule over the Republic and not serve the people, nor remain neutral. They saw that peace could only achieved through tyranny, while the Jedi believed that freedom was everyone's right.

"One of the issues in all of this is the bad guys think they’re good and Lord Sidious thinks he’s bringing peace to the galaxy because there is so much corruption and confusion and chaos going on and now he’s going to be able to straighten everything out which maybe true but the price the galaxy is going to have to pay for it is way too much."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Which then takes us to why Anakin exists, which is as Palpatine said, the Sith have used the dark side of the Force for unnatural actions. Plagueis himself is said to have created life and could even stop others from dying, but that is wrong. That is an unnatural use of the Force, and done for purely selfish reasons.

"When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who’s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it’s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, 'I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won’t do it, so I’m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.' You know, it’s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you’re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that’s not a good thing. That’s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005

YODA: "Soon will I rest. Yes, forever sleep. Earned it, I have."

LUKE: "Master Yoda, you can't die."

YODA: "Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things... the way of the Force."

OBI-WAN: "This weapon is your life."





VADER: "Join me and with our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict..."

As it is, redeeming Vader is essential to having the prophecy fulfilled because he is the Chosen One and he alone can end the madness.

Because Anakin is conflicted. On the one hand, he has been trained for thirteen years to believe that it is wrong to kill a helpless man. On the other hand, he hates Dooku with a passion. He hates him for cutting off his arm. Hates him for threatening Padme's life more than once. Hates him for starting the war. That is why Palpatine kept having them fight after Geonosis. First on Tatooine and then on Naboo. Every time Anakin saw him, he was filled with anger and hate. When he tells Anakin to do it a second time, it was as if he was given permission to give into his feelings. He regrets it because he has not fallen enough which is why he brings Obi-wan with him. It is the same reason he blocks Luke's attack on Sidious years later. He knows that Luke isn't ready enough and needs further incentive.

Not quite, because Palpatine made sure that there was a fostering of hate and anger which would bring out the worst in Anakin. If he was his father, he would hate him for abandoning him and his mother and Palpatine could easily say that it was his fault for Shmi's death. That he even arranged it.

 

But what is the weight of an appeal to ignorance?

Aren't people totally free to do things that won't be easy?

Compassion is allowed.

So your assumption is that Luke would never have been "ready for the burden"?

You're the one who sees the Jedi position on the Force as extreme. The point is that Luke appears to be no less extreme, as opposed to somewhere between the Jedi and the Sith.

What does any of that have to do with Anakin's statements in AOTC? "Kill the messenger" is still a fallacy.

What goes between Jedi and Sith?

Same thing.

Since when does the Force control everything?

 

I'm going to say a few things and then step out of the conversation, simply because I think both of you are very close in what you're saying. It appears that this is an argument of degrees. That becomes bickering and, in my opinion, that will lead to the dark side just as much as fear can.

On attachment, Arawn_Fenn, you are correct, compassion is allowed. Compassion is what brings the Jedi Order to do what it does - be the arbitrator and protector of the galaxy. At the same time, I see @Darth_Sinister's point that attachment is the key. The Jedi can have personal relationships. Witness Dexter Jettster (I think that's how it's spelled) and OB1. They obviously have a close personal relationship. Don't know many folks that would hug a Jedi on sight. the problem occurs when the Jedi get attached to another and that attachment causes them to second guess what their doing. Star Trek explores this quite a bit with supervisors getting an attachment relationship to a crew member and then having to send them on a potentially dangerous mission. Captain Picard, himself, had to deal with that once or twice. Attachment can cause clouded judgement. Supervisors in our own real world are told to have a healthy detachment with their charges. Back to the GFFA, that attachment caused Anakin to choose his relationship with Padme over his commitment to the Jedi Order to disasterous ends. Anakin, when he has that conversation with Padme on the transport back to Naboo was splitting hairs, "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life. So you might say, that we are encouraged to love." And he's pretty transparent about the whole thing. He was raised on attachment. He and his mother attached to each other out of necessity - to be able to survive being slaves. He was used to it such that he was drawn to attachment later on with Padme.

A few times Vader has been called "the Chosen One." Personally I'm not sure of that. The Chosen One was supposed to bring balance to the Force. Luke did that, not Vader. In OB1's own words Anakin "left it in darkness." Don't know that that's a huge matter, but if someone were depending on Anakin / Vader as the Chosen One, you may want to think about which Skywalker actually brought balance to the Force.

As to Luke being a Dark Jedi, I think you need to be a bit more down the dark path to be considered that. Even Mace Windu had some dark side leanings. His own lightsaber style, Vaapad, drew on the dark side to some extent. According to Wookiepedia, Vaapad "allowed the wielder to channel his own inner darkness into the duel, and accept the fury of the opponent." It was developed by Windu with Soyu Bulq, who eventually did turn to the dark side. Darth Maul even used that same style, although he fed it with the dark side considerably more than Windu did. Again according to Wookiepedia, "Dark Jedi, also known as 'Fallen' Jedi, were Force-sensitives, frequently former Jedi, who chose to deny the light side of the Force or follow the dark side." Quite a bit more down the path than simply using a force choke to get some brute out of your way. Certainly, you shouldn't just use dark side powers on a whim, but they do come in handy. It's just that most masters discouraged their apprentices from dabbling in dark side powers because so many have been lost after those dabbles came to control the man and not the other way around.

Now, after saying that, flame on!

 

Han seems to think that Obi-Wan is claiming it is, when he expresses his skepticism:

"I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything that would make me believe that there's one all-powerful energy field controlling everything."

from Jedi Academy Training Manual:

Variations on the Dark Side
The dark side of the Force is usually presented as the driving force behind the Sith, the darkest evil in the galaxy. However, other Force traditions have been known to walk the dark path or to wield the dark side from time to time and still avoid falling under its influence. Groups such as the Jensaarai have members that occasionally tap into the dark side and walk away seemingly untouched. According to the Jedi, these individuals become tainted and carry the dark side's influence with them, whether they realize it or not. Some people claim to have witnessed a slow metamorphosis of these persons' personalities over time as a result of their flirting with the dark side.

 

Obi-Wan hadn't gone into any detail (in front of Han) about the Jedi theology of the Force when Han said that, so that wasn't Han responding to something he said. Just strawmanning. I would take that to reflect Jedi theology no more than I would take Bill Maher's statements to reflect Islamic theology.

As for the stuff about 'fallen Jedi' and 'using the dark side' for vapaad etc -- I have even greater scepticism about that than my usual scepticism towards the EU. It's pretty much moviecanon that only twenty Jedi have left in the history of the Order. Even if we assume all of them were 'fallen' (and didn't just leave because they disliked the Order's apparent antipathy to clothing dye, or something like that ), that's hardly a large enough sample size to draw inferences about Jedi in general. (The small number is also why I find EU's portrayal of Jedi going bad willy-nilly utterly improbable).

 

The Lost Twenty are portrayed as Jedi Masters who resigned - rather than "fallen Jedi" - with there being a lot more fallen Jedi than 20.

 

Seriously? Obi-Wan said that Anakin left it in darkness in ROTS. That's not when balance is restored. Balance is restored in ROTJ due to Anakin killing Palpatine. That's why Lucas says that Anakin is the Chosen One as opposed to Luke. ROTS is not the end of the arc.

Earlier, Obi-Wan ( in response to Luke ) indicates that it only partially controls your actions. This may be taken to apply specifically to the context of a Force-sensitive who is attuned to it, but even if not, it shows that we need not assume that everything which happens in the GFFA was willed by the Force to happen. For if that were the case, why would a Chosen One be needed in the first place? Why would the Force will certain things to happen, only to later will a Chosen One into existence in order to reverse those same things?

 

The Chosen One is the one who slam dunked Palpatine down a reactor shaft.

"Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

"The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. It's recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999

 

OK, OK, no need to get your knickers in a twist. Only reason I'm saying that is... would Anakin have "slam dunked Palpatine down a reactor shaft" if his son hadn't been involved? If it was any other Jedi (possible exception if "the other" was Leia), there would have been crispy bits of him littering the throne room and Annie would be getting fit for a new hand right now.

 

Yes, Anakin only fulfilled the prophecy because of Luke. He still was the one to fulfill the prophecy. Luke played a necessary and important role in that, but Anakin/Vader was the one who actually did it.

 

If Anakin was the Jedi he was supposed to be in ROTS, he would have taken out Palpatine. His doing so in ROTJ comes from him finally becoming the Jedi that he needed to be.