The Demonizasion of Anakin Skywalker and the Sainthood of Obi-Wan Kenobi. A character discussion.

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by DarthBreezy, Jul 5, 2003.

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  1. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Force Ghost star 6

    Jun 4, 2002
    Nice sharp title yes? Did it get a rise out of you? Do you feel angery when a character you love is written 'poorly'? Or extremly?

    Are you guilty or writing characters like this? Anakin is either a saint or the devil incarnate. Obi-Wan is a brilliant long suffering master or an oaf...

    Luke, Jedi Master or whiney farm boy?

    Mara Jade, Loving wife or red scourge?*

    Edited to add This is just a partial list.. feel free to add characters that I missed... Qui Gon has been brought up and I think that's Brilliant!

    I would have given this thread the PROPER title of Finding a Balance but as the subject is so deeply based on individual perceptions and we tend to be so 'reactionary' when our beloved freinds are 'mistreated' I wanted the title to reflect that "gob-Smacked" feeling we get when this happens.

    So, what it boils down to is this...

    Are you guilty of pigeon holing a character? How? Why?

    * I have NO knowlege of anything past ROTJ... I tried to read the EU but it just wasn't my cuppa, so pardon the ignorance!
  2. Jane Jinn

    Jane Jinn Jedi Knight star 5

    Jan 12, 2000
    Well, I definitely tend towards "Saint Obi-Wan". In fact, I tend to show the Jedi of the Old Republic as being extremely virtuous, on the whole, because that's how I see them, as a religious order. I know that they are supposed to be becoming arrogant by the time of AOTC, but that's hard for me to accept. All of my efforts go to show my Jedi, whether canon or original characters, trying hard to do their best and follow the will of the Force. I haven't yet written a story, though, where the Jedi have to choose between the will of the Force and the will of the Council, or the Senate.

    Most of my stories show Obi-Wan as a teenager, trying to achieve the Jedi ideal. I liked to show him as industrious, hard-working, serious when the situation calls for it, but with a sense of humour, and caring about the individual more perhaps than the entire situation. I also tried to give him flaws and show him making mistakes.

    I've also tried to show Qui-Gon as someone who does care deeply for Obi-Wan, but who has the ultimate priority of following the will of the Force. I wrote a scene in "Friends Like These" where Qui-Gon had to leave an injured Obi-Wan behind for an hour or so, in order to keep a senator safe from his enemies. I really tried to show that Qui-Gon was unhappy that he had to make such a decision, but that he could do nothing else.

    I really liked your phrase "gob-smacked"! That's exactly how I feel when I read certain stories that show the Jedi as silly idiots, for instance. I also feel unhappy when I see Qui-Gon depicted as an uncaring blockhead, or when Obi-Wan is shown as sarcastic and sassy.
  3. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Mar 1, 2002
    The title certainly caught my attention. As for the question of pigeon-holing characters, I'd have to say - no, I don't believe I have. Characters, for me, are more fleshed-out and interesting with flaws, failings that make them three-dimensional. When I write about Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon or even Anakin, I try to be as canon as possible within the context of the storyline.

    Obi-Wan is NOT perfect. He tries to do his very best but it is his devotion to duty, his skills as a Jedi and his failings as a teacher that make him a great character.
    Qui-Gon is NOT a blockhead. Again, ever the rebellious one, he tries to follow the will of the Force, even if it means going against the ones he loves best. His stubborn integrity makes for great angst and riveting character development.
    Anakin is NOT the demon from hell. His problems with being a stranger to the Jedi ways, his overabundant Force sensitivity and his inability to submerge his emotions as a proper Jedi would do does not make him a devil. It makes him human.
    And the interaction of those three characters tend to make each individual flaw stand out even more. But there is a point where the flaws become exaggerated, and authors need to be aware of the problem and try to find some balance.

    For the Jedi, I have to agree with Jane that they are trying to strive to follow the will of the Force, to do what is right even if doing so may cause them or their loved ones pain. In that, both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are the epitome of Jedi Knights.

    I am more annoyed at stories that are just so far off the mark in terms of character - do they really think that Obi-Wan can walk on water, or Qui-Gon will stab Obi-Wan in the back for the fun of it? To me, it just throws me right out of the story. Frankly, I don't waste my time anymore on them when there are so many good stories out there waiting to be read. And it's too bad because some of those authors are superb.

    However, that being said, there appears to be a large following of Anakin demonizers and Obi-Wan worshipers and people who enjoy making Qui-Gon a buckethead. The question remains as to why writers feel the need to make their larger-than-life characters even larger than they already are...and why readers demand it.

  4. female_obi_wan

    female_obi_wan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 1, 2002
    Hmmm. I'm never overjoyed when Qui is written as a complete idiot...he's been my favourite since 1999. 8-} (Actually, really that doesn't bug me that's just him constantly being called 'buckethead' or some variation get really gets me. I mean, I can understand it in stories when he's written as the bad guy...but all the time, even in stories and things when he's the nice guy? C'mon, there'd be a minor riot or something if it was Obi!)

    Ack. Sorry. [face_blush]

    Saint!Obi doesn't irratate me all that much...mainly because I have trouble writing him myself. I'll read back over something I've written and think 'Ack. Sounds way too perfect. Maybe I should have him call someone names, or vandalise a building, or murder someone in cold blood...okay, maybe not...'

  5. LuvEwan

    LuvEwan Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 24, 2002
    Well, you certainly got 'a rise' out of me with this topic title. Mostly because I was just accused the other day of doing the same thing.

    Since then I've been musing over if I really do make Anakin seem like the devil incarnate and Obi-Wan a guileless saint. I don't think I do, as others have said pertaining to their fics on this thread, I just write Anakin with the flaws that I perceive him to have. The same goes for characterization of Obi-Wan.

    I think that sometimes, if you enjoy the character (or the actor) you're reading about, you're a little more defensive of the actions the author has described for him. I've read fics where Obi-Wan is either a total stiff, like his presence is required but not relished by the author, and where he's overly sarcastic or, sometimes, innocent. It's then when I wonder if they even enjoy writing his character at all.

    I think the absolute perfect characterization of Obi-Wan Kenobi is written by CYNICAL21. If you've ever read her fics, they balance his normal, human failings and personality with Force strength and deep compassion. And her Anakin is powerful, but prone to jealousy and anger. He had to become Vader somehow...there had to have been some darkness in him.

    It's been a tough time on the thread of my story where I was accused of, I think it was called, 'shameful' description of Anakin, although the fic was a mere four pages long, and he and his master were in the midst of a heated argument. I was defended by other readers, but it didn't change the pain I felt when that reader felt compelled to comment on my take on Anakin.... when I deliberately wrote at the beginning of the post that other aspects would of course be addressed concerning Anakin. The reader didn't give me a chance, and now I'm wary of every post I write.

    What really irked me was that they were referring to the jokes I was sharing with my friends on the thread that were delivered in a teasing matter that had nothing to do with my story.

    And as for Qui-Gon being a 'buckethead', I think partly he was blinded by the Force and his own feelings, because in the JA books he rejects Obi-Wan, then holds him at arm's length, then later pushes him into early knighthood to take an apprentice untrained by the Order. I know he was following the Force, and that Anakin was needed to bring balance, but as far as his relationship with Obi-Wan, he was a man who made some mistakes. I also think he's an incredible character to write, and a good character, despite his flaws.

    I've read some fics that characterize him as nearly as evil as Anakin, and that just totally turns me off to the fic.

    But maybe the subject title is misleading, when there are other characters discussed here. But it's your thread, so I hope everyone's comments are read and valued. ;)

    EDIT: I hope you weren't too upset, anakin_girl. I never meant to alienate you. I just felt like I needed to speak my opinion on this, since it was so relevant to me recently. I shouldn't have grouped you together with the other reader. I hope we've moved past this now, and we can become friends. ;)
  6. tatooinewizard

    tatooinewizard Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 13, 2003
    I don't really belong here. I'm an OC person myself, at least with all my writing and most of my reading, but I just wanted to congradulate DarthBreezy on creating such a cool title for this thread.
  7. Kit'

    Kit' Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 30, 1999
    The title caught my attention to.

    Although I don't like reading extreme polarisation of characters, I think the way that you write them has a lot to do with the way that you percieve them.

    Everyone has different perceptions of a person and so every characterisation is going to be different. It just changes over time.

    I don't write canon characters anymore because I wsa once told (in no uncertain words) that I couldn't write Obi-wan like "he really was". As a more experianced author now I'd tell them where to go...but back then it was a cruel blow to the ego. I was writing Obi-wan exactly how I saw him.

    The fact that even my current fic has had claims of "incorrect characterisation" thrown at it (in reguards to Mary-Sue), shows how different people percieve characters.


    Edit: LuvEwan, if you want to contact me about what happened in your fic. Feel free.
  8. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Mar 1, 2002
    Kit - You should start writing canon characters again!!! Tell those that don't like the way you do it to not read your fics....

    So there!!!

    I think we all are a little possessive of the characters that we like to read and write about. I know that I got into a heated debate with my best friend about Anakin... and we finally agreed to disagree and not talk about it any more.... LOL. As if he were a real person! As if it were really important!

    We each perceive the characters differently and we always will. I suppose the discussion is really about how much we are willing to read of fiction that does not blend in with our own perceptions - before we refuse to read any further and start getting upset... Some people have low thresholds and some thresholds are higher.... Some people are vocal and some just stop reading...

    Does that make sense?
  9. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Force Ghost star 6

    Jun 4, 2002
    Wow! Super replies gang!
    I edited the first post to reflect the fact that ANY character discussion is welcome!

    Obi-wan has been difficult for me, although I'm having fun with him in the AU.. I find that it's helping me prepare for the next 'serious' piece since I've relaxed with him...

  10. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Oct 8, 2000
    I'm going to come clean...

    I'm one of the ones who accused LuvEwan, and it was a false accusation, and it was based on the comments her readers made in reaction to her first post (comments along the lines of "YAY! More Ani-bashing!" and "Yay, LuvEwan! I'm already ready to chop the little brat in half!"). I had gone into LuvEwan's story because she was recommended to me as a writer, and I think she is very good--and I said that in my post. I never, ever meant to hurt feelings, and I apologize for doing so. My comments were not based on her writing--I thought I had made that clear but obviously I didn't. I think she is a superb writer and I am still reading her story. (However, if she feels she has to be wary about how she writes because I'm there, then I am going to stop reading. It's not fair to her.) My comments were based on what I felt was a thirst for Anakin's blood among some of her first repliers--I found that disgusting.

    That being said...

    The topic.

    We all prefer certain characters over others. One thing I have never understood is why people feel that they have to hate Obi-Wan to love Anakin, or vice versa. I happen to like both characters. I definitely don't think either are saints. I like Anakin because he is more like me. Obi-Wan reminds me of my father--both in good ways and in bad. I adore my father, so how could I hate Obi-Wan?

    I like to hope I don't write "saint Ani". Even my AU in which Anakin doesn't turn into Vader still shows his angry side. However, if there is anything I absolutely cannot stand, it's a TPM-to-post-AOTC Anakin being written as a total complete brat who whines because someone doesn't bring him breakfast in bed and stoop down to tie his shoes for him. On the same token, I can't stand Obi-Wan being written as the Star Wars equivalent of the Biblical Job. Or, in JA fics (and this is why I haven't bothered with too many of the JA books), Qui-Gon being written as an ice cube who would watch his poor long-suffering Padawan be tortured and never change his stony expression.


    Anakin is dark, but he also has his good traits--his compassion, his love for his mother and Padme, his intelligence and wit.

    Obi-Wan is a good Jedi, but he also has negative traits--I see him, as Anakin did, as overly critical and not understanding. (However, unlike Anakin, I'm not sure he could help it--he was a brand-new Knight and not ready to take on the Chosen One, and he had no way of understanding how different Anakin's first ten years were as opposed to Temple training.)

    If Qui-Gon were a cold fish, he would not have treated Anakin as kindly as he did in TPM.

    CYNICAL21 in her story about the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel does one of the best portrayals I have ever seen of either character. She and I don't share the same character loves, but I have always admired her work and enjoyed friendly discussions with her.
  11. Princess1

    Princess1 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Dec 3, 2001
    Great idea for a thread! :D

    I've never been accused of pigeon-holing a character, but I always try and write them as real people who have their ups and downs, their good days and their bad days, just like anyone else. No one is always a saint, or always a enraged maniac either. At least I should hope not. :p I really agree with who-ever said the way you write characters depends tottaly of your perception of them. Everyone see's things differntly.

    Anyway, the demonization of Anakin really bothers me, that I can say for sure. In my opinion he really acted a great deal like most teenage guys I know. In other words, his ego got ahead of him, and he did some stupid things. The problem is, as a jedi, and one with as much power-potential as he has, this normal adolescent rebellion is dangerous. He has a very powerful, passionate personality, in my opinion anyway, I think he feels everything intensely and compltely. If he loves someone or something, the he does--tottaly. If he doesn't, well...
    So on the accassions when two sets of equally powerful but contradicting emotions and idea collide, thats what leads to his problems. He wants indepence, he doesn't want to be held back, yet he really wants to become a jedi. Obi Wan flusterates him, yet he's like his father. He loves Padme deeply, but he's not allowed to. He loves his mother and wants revenge, and wants it badly. Yet he feels guilt knowing she wouldn't want him to do that, and knowing as a jedi, he knows better.

    Its the conflict that gets him, he's not really bad, or a saint either. He's simply human.

  12. kristeh

    kristeh Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 24, 2003
    Hi, everyone,

    I'm fairly new here and to fanfic writing so I do worry if I'm portraying characters accurately. Luke and Anakin are my favorite characters in SW and since I've been writing post RotJ-AUs, I've been thinking a lot about the characters' relationships would develop. It's been very difficult for me to show how remorseful Anakin would be without it becoming a wallow-fest, and as I love Luke, trying to show him as a compassionate, wise Jedi without him becoming too saintly.

    I guess just the main thing is to remember that all the characters, no matter how you personally feel about them, have both faults and virtues (except maybe Palpy. I'm not sure he had any virtues. No offense to anyone who likes him).

  13. LuvEwan

    LuvEwan Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 24, 2002
    Hey, anakin_girl! **waves***

    My sentiments were better expressed through the Pm, but again, it was the other reader that really upset me. I just wanted people to know that their comments, dealing with the demonization of Anakin and the Sainthood of Obi-Wan, can be hurtful. Yours weren't, really. But I'll admit, it did make me think about my fic. That's actually a little good as a writer, to stand back and make sure that my characterization isn't reflecting my personal adoration of Ewan McGregor. ;)

    Hope to see you around. No hard feelings, at all. :D
  14. ZaraValinor

    ZaraValinor Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 31, 2002
    Drama is best when you have a group of charactes with goodwill but each have their faults and sometimes those faults take them into directions that they may not have planned on. Anakin only wanted to do good, but in his urge, he felt that he was the only one who could define what that good was. Obi-Wan somtimes became so possessed on doing things the right way that he forgot that there were other paths you could take. Qui-Gon forgot that there were certain paths that one should not take at times, that sometimes you should not veer so drastically. Each of these faults have an amount of pride in them. I think what really comes down to is a choice, despite Anakin's faults he could have stayed on the goodside, but he chose the dark, and then when Luke came after him he chose the light again.

    Obi-Wan could have easily fallen into a rigid path of what seemed to be what was right. Palpatine lawfully rose to power but whether it was right or not is the question. Obi-Wan could have joined Palpatine and Vader as, perhaps not a Sith, but a dark jedi with them.

    Qui-Gon could have taken the path of his fallen Master Dooku.

    What made them each a great pairing, and which most people do show, was that their differences covered one anothers faults. It wasn't unless they focused on the differences that they became distant to one another, became separate.

    As to Luke the whiney farmboy. Which of us has never been in a situation where we feel that we are being trapped, that our parnets are far overprotective and that the life is being sucked out of us. I for one have, especially when I was sick for a long time, and you can't help but rage against your state and sometime that comes out as whiny.

    Han was a mouth with a blaster.

    Leia a snob with a title part of the time.

    Padme let her love for Anakin over rule her common sense. Even encouraged the bad behavior in Episode II.

    Yoda had that whole weird speech thing.

    There is no one perfect person in the bunch and that's what makes them interesting. Ending my babbling now.
  15. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Oct 31, 1999
    If there is a tendency to write Obi-Wan as a saint, Luke as a whiner, or Anakin as unfailingly dark, IMO there's one source that might lead fanficcers to this assessment of the characters. It's a little movie called Star Wars. Perhaps you've heard of it? ;)

    OT Obi-Wan is quite a bit different from the prequel Obi-Wan we're seeing come to life before us. With Luke, Obi-Wan was ever patient and had all the wisdom and answers that Luke could need. He seemed to us then to be the ideal teacher, even going so far as to sacrifice himself to save his young pupil.

    With Anakin, we've seen Obi-Wan display impatience and exasperation. Yet, knowing how Obi-Wan will treat Anakin's son years later, it's easy to see those more "saintly" qualities and suppose that those qualities were always there within Obi-Wan and not that they perhaps came as a result of Obi-Wan's decades of reflection about what went wrong with his first apprentice.

    For Anakin, seeing the unremorseful villain from Episode IV can easily taint the conflicted young man from the prequels. Yes Anakin will do some horrible things as Vader, but it is abundantly clear from the prequels that the core of Anakin's being is love - love for his mother and love for Padme. No doubt this love will become twisted into hatred against the Jedi, but I won't guess exactly how that's going to happen.

    As far as Luke and whining are concerned, I just wonder how badly he really needed to pick up those power converters. ;)
  16. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Mar 1, 2002
    I certainly do not want to start an argument and this is just my opinion...

    I wouldn't have said anything but since two people (people whose opinions I respect) brought up CYNICAL21's work as good examples of accurate Obi-Wan characterization, I feel that I must say something. I respectfully and strongly disagree!!! She is a superb writer, probably the best one on the boards, but she was the first person I thought of when the "Sainthood of Obi-Wan" was mentioned. I really love her writing skill but I believe (and this is just my opinion and certainly not an attack on Cyn's work or anyone else's opinion) that her depiction of Obi-Wan is just too angelic to be believable.

    That being said, I think that anyone reading Saga fics should read some, if not all, of her works and make their own judgement.

    On other things,

    Zara loved your Yoda had that whole weird speech thing.

    Herman Luke was the perfect whiny kid! My 14 year old sounds just like him at times...LOL.

    And I agree that some people may be influenced by the older movies. Certainly, Obi-Wan was much more patient with Luke than Anakin. He was much too inexperienced to be dealing with a kid of Anakin's power and mindset.
    And you are right that Anakin in Ep. 2 has not become the demon he was in Ep. 4. But some people might see him that way. Quite a few people I knew didn't like Ani as a kid because he wasn't the devil incarnate at the time....

    It's a matter of perceptions...
  17. obi_ew

    obi_ew Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 14, 2002
    Just a quick comment,I have to agree with LE . I know I, and I feel alot of the writers on the boards have a tough time seperating the character of Obi-Wan Kenobi from the actor Ewan McGregor. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, but I think it certainly tilts the scales in favor of making him out to be seen as perfect.

    As for Anakin, I have to admit that I was one of the masses who loved to make him out to be the Chosen Brat. Since writing a series that centers on him heavily however, I have developed a new appreciation for the character as a whole. He, like Obi-Wan had his strong points and his faults.
  18. stacysatrip

    stacysatrip Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 20, 2002
    I am an Anakin sympathizer. I love him. But I don't believe I overlook his obvious flaws--namely his arrogance and impetuousness, his impatience and his stubbornness. I haven't gone far enough in writing fanfic to really be able to explore his character other than how I've seen him in TPM, AotC, and RotJ. I just think the poor guy, even in ANH and ESB, is largely misunderstood. I think his "evil" is a product of his pain, plain and simple. As for Obi-Wan, I love him too, but I don't really write him, unless it's from Ani's POV. I don't think I've personally ever pigeon-holed him as "overly critical," "never listening" and "not understanding," though I do have to agree with Ani's sentiment on that one. What I like about Obi is that in the end, he realizes and owns up to his mistakes.
  19. CYNICAL21

    CYNICAL21 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 8, 2001
    Breezy - you're a bloody genius, you know that?

    This, in the words of the Boy Wizard, is brilliant.

    I'm in the middle of finishing a post, so I have no time to craft a real response, so I'll just say a big BRAVO for the opinions registered here - a thank you for those who spoke kindly of my work and a 'To each his own' for those who disagree - :D - and, to Herman - right on, friend. You're my hero. :eek:


    On second thought, I just posted something on a different site which, when you get right down to it, addresses the same question. So, with a bit of clean-up editing - and you can probably guess what THAT means - here it is. See if you agree that it fits here.

    Good morning, All. Hold on a sec - while I shrug into my asbestos suit.

    I have no interest - nor intention - of defending writers who deliberately set out to assassinate a canon character - or even a non canon character. Frankly, I - like a lot of you - don't like Mara Jade - but I wouldn't care to read a fic in which she was portrayed as a ball-busting dominatrix, controlling Luke - and her entire cadre of helpless males - with whips and chains. I don't like her; she doesn't interest me; therefore I don't write her, which doesn't mean I have a right to criticize those who do. I might question their taste - but never their justification.

    Now, here comes the real heresy: I don't particularly like Luke Skywalker either - and I never did. I don't actively DISLIKE him - but, again, I find the character shallow (as are many of George's creations) but the course of his development through the OT just never appealed to me. On the other hand, I love Han and Leia - but I don't usually write them, simply because they don't inspire me.

    And this might be the right point to observe that being 'true' to the characterization of an individual depends largely on how one interprets that character - especially in a medium - such as film - where in-depth character development is virtually impossible. We're given bare bones, and left to flesh out the rest according to our own extrapolation. And that's what makes fan fic not only entertaining, but, to some extent, necessary as an adjunct to what we see on the screen. Does the fact that MY interpretation differs from YOURS invalidate either of them? Not in the view from CYN's head!

    To a large degree, the characters in fan fic are as WE, the fans, have created them - and sometimes, they seem to stray farther and farther afield from where they started. Does that mean we should all stop speculating - and restrict ourselves to GL's vision - always providing, of course, that we can figure out just what that vision is?

    Now - let's get to Anakin. a_g is exactly right; I don't much like him - and (please hold rotten tomatoes until I've finished pissing EVERYBODY off.) I think Padmé is way too overwhelmed by simple hormones. Why she would fall head over heels for a petulant, self-absorbed little whiner - is beyond me. BUT - and it's a very big BUT - I DO find him a fascinating character - mainly, I suppose, because of the contrast between where he came from - and where he goes.

    I don't believe in total evil; even Palpatine - in his youth, at least - must have had some redeeming qualities. My point is that I find it infinitely more intriguing to delve into the psyche and try to find the fault lines that led to the birth of Vader, than to simply write this one-dimentional, wholly malevolent creature.

    HOWEVER - and this is important - the fic that a_g mentioned is looking at things from a different perspective - and I happen to know, for a fact, that the writer in question has written stories in which she is sympathetic to Anakin's situation. In THIS fic, the opening scene portrays a disagreement - a spat, if you will - between teen-aged Anakin and Obi-Wan - a confrontation in which Ani is feeling sorry for himself for imagined slights and Obi-Wan is suffering from some kind of illness, thus not being particularly sensitive to his padawan's feelings. Not exa
  20. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Force Ghost star 6

    Jun 4, 2002
    ?He is exhausted? What are you implying Obi-Wan?? Years of staring down opponents in the Senate came into play as her eyes bore into him.

    ?Has he?. ?hurt you??? he said at last and Padmé stared at him in disbelief.

    ?HURT ME?? she said, aghast.

    ?The Council fears for you and the child?? he began but Padmé cut him off, furious.

    "What do you want me to say Obi-wan?" the chill of her voice belying the fire of rage in her eyes. "What do you want to hear? That he beats me? That he forces himself on me? That our children are a result of rape? Forgive my ignorance Obi-wan, but do I believe that even members of the so called Sith would not lower themselves to such atrocities...?

    Obi-Wan, an old hand at such outburst, refused to be baited. ?I said the COUNCIL fears for your safety?? he interrupted softly. ?I did not say I agreed with them??

    I wrote that a farily long time ago, it was a part of a story that eventually became Come Undone and it was my way of lashing out at the stories that make Anakin into some kind of monster.

    "But he becomes Darth Vader" is the battle cry that precedes Anakin beating or even killing Padme...

    Sorry, I don't buy it. Vader was a classy villain, Anakin was a loving man. Some people can't see that a person can have many facets. Many SS officers in the Second world war went home to loveing wives and children... not every one of them was a baby eating monster (though I believe many may have been serioulsy disturbed but that's just MHO...)

    Now as for Obi, I'm still trying to figure him out....
  21. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Oct 8, 2000
    CYN: [face_blush] Thanks.

    Herman: I think the point here is that people have different perceptions of the characters in the movies. Unless you're writing an AU, I think we all at least try to get our characterizations from the films--however, one point Breezy was trying to make, IMHO, is that by pigeon-holing characters, people fail to do this.

    I tend to see Anakin the way stacysatrip sees him, as misunderstood, and the evil he committed came from pain. Having been misunderstood myself, I am very sensitive to people who will pass judgment on him (that being said, I think we all, to a certain extent, connect ourselves with certain characters and thus prefer some over others). However, as I said before, I hope I don't write "saint Ani", even in my AU in which he doesn't turn. I can't stand Mary Sues, and one thing I like about Anakin is that he isn't a saint.
  22. Jedi_Liz

    Jedi_Liz Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Apr 24, 2000
    I hate when I see Mara written poorly. I read a fic where Luke supposedly had a previous "marriage" and Mara was fine with Luke cheating on her with this other woman.......that is definitely **way out** of character IMHO. Mara would have done something more Mara-Like, like threaten to give him a 2nd prosthetic hand.

    This is a good idea for a thread.
  23. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Oct 31, 1999
    and, to Herman - right on, friend. You're my hero

    And you are the wind beneath my wings. ;)

    Herman: I think the point here is that people have different perceptions of the characters in the movies. Unless you're writing an AU, I think we all at least try to get our characterizations from the films--however, one point Breezy was trying to make, IMHO, is that by pigeon-holing characters, people fail to do this.

    Absolutely. The prequel Obi-Wan is not a saint and prequel Anakin is not pure evil. They're both more complex and interesting than that. We've seen Obi-Wan act impatient and condescending and Anakin wants badly to make everything right but he chafes at the restrictions of being a Jedi.

    Even Palpatine, who could be said to more closely represent evil than any other character, is full of nuance in the prequels as opposed to the OT.

    My point was that though it might not be completely accurate to use the OT versions of characters to influence how one writes prequel era characters, it is indeed a hazard because we know what these characters will become. Watching the prequels we can catch glimpses of what these characters will become even though they're obviously not there yet.
  24. Darth_Leia_6669

    Darth_Leia_6669 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Apr 26, 2003
    I have to agree that our personal perceptions of the characters define how we write them, and that no one person's perception is more right than another. I consider myself a fairly openminded person, and enjoy the different portrayals that I see written. One author's interpretation of an unfavorite character can help me see qualities that I may have missed before, and I leave the story with a new appriciation for that character.

    However, those that focus only on a character's good, or bad, traits do tend to get tiresome. Everyone is conflicted, have their good and bad sides, and to ignore one side to focus on the other just gets to me. Yes, Anakin is seen as a brat, Obi a saint, ect. But that is mearly one facet of their personalities, and I get bored by those stories that just focus on one trait, until that's all the character has become.

    I find that in my fic, my first one in fact, I'm struggling to show the different aspects to all my characters. I write them as I see them, troubled, conflicted, and at times unsure of themselves. I think about their pasts, and how it has shaped them. I look at people I know that have been in similar situations, and see how they have handled them. If someone does not know what the love of a family is like, how can they truly understand how someone else feels who does? (yes, I'm thinking of Obi and Ani here) They give advice based upon what they know, and what is right for them, but not necessarily right for the other person. Does Obi truly understand Anakin's sense of family, or the desire to have one of his own? I don't think so, as his only family has been the Jedi, and that is far different from Anakin's upbringing with Shmi. The point that I'm trying to make here is this: What one person may see as a flaw, may be a virture to another. And I try to keep all this in mind as I write.

    Yes, Anakin can be a brat, Obi saintlike, but they have the flipside as well, and reasons for their behavior. It's not like Anakin has been pampered all his life, even amounst the Jedi. Most of his 'brattiness' I believe stems from defense mechanisms to keep himself held together through the hardships and troubled emotions he faces on a near daily basis. And Obi (in the movies) has earned his 'sainthood' by epi4 by reflecting on his mistakes and learning from them, but I do not believe he was saintly his entire life. But this is all just my opinion.

  25. kristeh

    kristeh Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 24, 2003
    Hi, everyone,

    Isn't wonderful that SW has such complex, intriguing characters? Just about everyone can find someone they identify and sympathize with.

    I have to agree with Darth_Leia. I like both Obi-Wan and Anakin, but they were not well-suited to be master/padawan, imho. Not that they didn't love one another, I believe they did, but poor Obi was just not ready to become a master at the end of TPM. I wonder if any other Jedi went from padawan to master practically overnight?

    Still, he might well have been successful if Anakin had been a typical padawan. But Anakin came to the Jedi with a lot of emotional baggage and I don't think Obi-Wan ever really understood this. Consequently, he wasn't able to meet a lot of Anakin's needs.

    At times you can say, "Anakin's being a brat" or "Obi-Wan is much too critical," but the basic root of their troubles is that they just completely misunderstand each other. It's not that one is evil and one is good.

    And, btw, and this is just my opinion and I hope the Obi fans won't get angry, but I don't think he really learned that much about familial relationships during his sojourn on Tatooine (to be fair, he may not have had much opportunity). He seems to be very unaware that encouraging Luke to commit patricide could cause serious long-range emotional problems for his 'new padawan.' Though I do admit that Obi-Wan's in a tough position by the time of the CT and probably doesn't see any other choice, it's always bothered me that he just flat out wants Luke to kill Vader.

    Please forgive this long, rambling post. I guess I just wanted to say that I see Anakin as a sympathetic character who makes tragic decisions, and Obi-Wan as a someone who tries to do the right thing for his padawan, but makes some grave mistakes because he has trouble relating to Anakin.

    And I have to respectfully disagree about Luke being whiny. He made a couple of statements that could be considered whiny in ANH, but I just don't see that he whined all the way through the trilogy.

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