The Demonizasion of Anakin Skywalker and the Sainthood of Obi-Wan Kenobi. A character discussion.

Cyn

The point I am beating my way around here, is that those who formed their opinions of Vader from the OT may have difficulty resolving their opinion with the terminally cute, relentlessly precocious child of TPM; the two images would seem to be diametrically opposed to each other. And when you carry that forward - in the portrayal of Ani as a troubled teen-ager (no matter how adorable the actor might be) - those who got to know him first as that sweet child would probably find it easier to sympathize with his pain than those who can never quite overcome that initial impression formed atthe moment they first saw that dark, foreboding visage. Make sense?

Theoretically, yes. In practice, no. I was there for the OT as well as a sentient being (read: adult). I saw Vader initially as George Lucus showed him to me - no more, no less. A Saturday-afternoon matinee villain, and a good one, too. Then when George made his midstream jump I happily made it with him, and began to see everything very differently.

Earlier, when I mentioned that I thought Ani already carried the seeds of darkness that would create Vader, I did NOT mean that his fate was sealed. Instead, I meant that the only person who could have saved Ani - was Ani. Whatever the motivation, whatever the excuse - in the end, he made his own choices - and I don't think anyone could have pushed him to a different path.

No argument there. I'm persuaded by your argument that Qui-Gon may not have fared much better with Anakin. Let's face it. I would just go a step further and assert that we all carry those "seeds of darkness." Some of us make it - some of us don't. Some of us find the light sooner, some later; some never seem to have strayed from it at all. That is the reason why this story fascinates us and makes us stay up late at night arguing about characterization - ultimately we just want to know "why?"

 

I was having this conversation about Anakin and Obi Wan with my brother and he kind of came to the conclusion that if Maul haddn't have killed Qui Gon that Anakin would never turn to the darkside becasue Qui Gon would have been his master. I don't know if anyone esle has noticed it, but Obi Wan doesn't seem to like Anakin very much and I think this is becasue Qui Gon wanted to take Anakin on as his padawan...

But what would I know? I can't stand Obi Wan!Yay for Vader for killing him!

 

I don't know if anyone esle has noticed it, but Obi Wan doesn't seem to like Anakin very much and I think this is becasue Qui Gon wanted to take Anakin on as his padawan...

emimar, I have noticed it, as have many others, but I wouldn't say that he disliked him so much as he was jealous of the attention Qui was giving the boy. And I would go so far as to say that this did color their early relationship. Obi probably felt some resentment as well for agreeing to the promise he made his dying master, but over the years I would dare say that Obi was able to let go of the majority of these feelings and a friendship was able to develop between the two, no matter how shaky it was at times. But these early emotions did, imo, continue to color Obi's perceptions of Anakin, and caused a rift in their relationship that never fully disappeared.

And I also agree wholeheartedly that the only one who could have prevented Anakin's downfall was himself, though had several circumstances been different in his life, he may have made better choices. Then again, maybe not.

And of all the Jedi, the Counsil as a whole was the most arrogant of them all!

--later--

 

Agree that Obi-Wan was experiencing some degree of anger - but I think it was directed toward what he saw as betrayal by his Master, as witness the look on his face in the Council chamber.

As far as a 'dislike' of Anakin, I didn't see dislike so much as I saw distrust, keeping in mind that Obi-Wan - unlike his 'Your focus determines your reality' Master (which, incidentally, is only a different phrasing of the old 'different point of view' thing) Obi-Wan was gifted (or cursed) with a gift for prophecy to some extent. If he saw the darkness lying in wait when he looked at Anakin, it's not too surprising that he was less than enthusiastic about the boy's training.

Yet - he still did his duty, as best he could.

Geo3 - your points are well taken -but remember that I did say that my observation was in the nature of a general perception. If there were no differences among us, how terribly boring we would be.

CYN

 

The first SW movie I ever saw was Phantom Menace. I saw a picture of Ewan up in a department store and right then, declared to my brother that I would go to the movie that, a day before, I refused to even think about attending, and stayed home while he and my mother went. He'd already spilled the whole plot to me before I even saw it, so pretty much, I had no surprises. BUT, I also knew next to nothing about Anakin Skywalker or Vader and especially Obi-Wan Kenobi. So my opinions of the characters were shaped then and there. I thought Obi-Wan was a serene, smart, loyal man (this doesn't have anything to do with Ewan, because there are characters of his that I think are awful people) and Anakin Skywalker was a sweet little boy who had an incredibly rough young life.

My views of them didn't change much between the time I saw Ep. 1 and 2, partly because I've only seen the trilogy once, and I didn't see it all, so my thoughts on that were foggy. In Ep. 2, Obi-Wan was similar, but he'd developed a stronger sense of humor and, I think, purpose. He cares for Anakin. I don't believe he dislikes him. There were too many smiles, like in the very fist scene they were in, to make me believe that. But Anakin had undergone tremendous transformation. I could tell that he was on his way to the dark. He also makes excuses for his actions, namely Obi-Wan.

What I saw in Ep.2 was that Obi-Wan gave him freedom, but not too much. Trusted him, but not blindly. I DO remember the final duel between Master and Apprentice, when Obi-Wan was struck down. Even then, I didn't detect any hate in Obi-Wan towards Vader.

But those were just my perceptions. **shrugs**

 

One of the things that I've noticed in the relatively short time that I've been hanging around these boards, is that people tend to get emotionally involved with the characters. The Anakin/Obi-Wan lovers division is almost as extreme as the dog/cat lovers division. There are those who like both, and those who like neither as well.

I personally find that my like/dislike of the characters is almost completely dictated by how the author perceives them. For example, some of the authors whose stories I read will tell you of emphatic rants about 'Buckethead' and his interactions with Obi-Wan. On the other hand, of my two stories, in one, he is very sympathetic and a good master to Obi-Wan. In the other, he is a side character with a lot of interaction, both positive and negative.

A character that is presented as two dimensional, all good, or all bad, I frankly find boring. The same with whiny, mean, saintly, etc. What makes them interesting to me is the ability to see a personality beyond their basic characterization. Does Obi-Wan let his lightsaber short out in the swamp and his Master is going to kill him? Does Anakin get his fried or lost and his Master is going to kill him? And how many of you parents out there would not like to head directly for the bar after letting your teenager drive the family speeder for a while?

Now, we can all have issues with how the characters are written in the books and for the movies. It's called an opinion. Great things. Without them, we'd be Xerox copies, or clones.

Does it matter if Anakin is good in one story and a Bratakin in the next? Whether Qui-Gon is Master or Buckethead? Whether Palpantine is the Evil Emperor of Doom (Mua ha ha ha) or merely a slightly misunderstood Sith trying to make his way (and only his way) in a harsh and non-understanding galaxy? Not really. Not as long as there is a plot and someone has actually read Strunk and White at least once.

And now for my last rant...
(wow, this is almost Cynical length! Just another 1200000 pages and I'll be there )

If you don't like how a character is portrayed by an author in a thread - just go read something else. Don't attack the author; flames are only good if you have marshmallows, graham crackers, and lots of chocolate handy, and the crumbs do horrible things to the keyboard. Just as you are entitled to your feelings about the characters, they are entitled to develop their characters as the plot demands. And you are not going to change their minds about the character they are writing, canon or au, by yelling.

So, read the ones you like, ignore the ones you don't, and look at the stories as the entertainment they are.

PS, anyone bring the marshmallows?

 

WEll said, PaddyJuan! *applauds*

I agree - I'm tolerant of characters portrayed in a broad range across the spectrum - as long as the writer explains WHY the character thinks or behaves the way he/she does. It's when characters appear to act perfect, or like the Spawn of Satan, without any rhyme or reason whatsoever (other than the author thinking "gee, I really love/hate this character, let's see how big of a divine being/jerk I can make him/her out to be!"), that I get turned off.

-Tim

 

PaddyJuan

Does it matter if Anakin is good in one story and a Bratakin in the next? Whether Qui-Gon is Master or Buckethead? Whether Palpantine is the Evil Emperor of Doom (Mua ha ha ha) or merely a slightly misunderstood Sith trying to make his way (and only his way) in a harsh and non-understanding galaxy? Not really. Not as long as there is a plot and someone has actually read Strunk and White at least once.

Does it matter? In the overall scheme of things involving war, famine, injustice and political and economic instability, probably not.

As far as our little world of reading and writing fanfiction goes, most of us certainly have preferences, and actually care a great deal how our favorite characters are presented.

It's just that, by saying it doesn't matter, you take all the fun out of debating the question.

Darn it.

Hence the ringing silence on this thread.

 

Does it matter if Anakin is good in one story and a Bratakin in the next? Whether Qui-Gon is Master or Buckethead? Whether Palpantine is the Evil Emperor of Doom (Mua ha ha ha) or merely a slightly misunderstood Sith trying to make his way (and only his way) in a harsh and non-understanding galaxy? Not really. Not as long as there is a plot and someone has actually read Strunk and White at least once.

I strongly disagree. A story has to have much more than a plot and good grammar in order to make a story good in my view. Complexities in the characters give a story depth. If the characters are one-dimensional and shallow, the story seems one-dimensional and shallow.

That's why I'm not into old Westerns and why ANH is my least favorite Star Wars film--I dislike stories in which the characters are cleanly divided into "good guys" (which too often end up as Mary Sues) and "bad guys".

And in fan fiction, this becomes worse, when a writer chooses to completely ignore the characters' complexities as presented in the movies in favor of writing a Bratakin or a Saint Obi.

 

"Bratakin"--that's funny. I have never understood why people think Ani is a brat. Yes, he whines in AotC, but he's a 20 year old kid! Twenty year olds all whine! Remember, they're not far removed from adolescence, which is a time when a person reverts back to a state of mental infancy (the world revolves around me and I am the only person whose needs matter). I'm not saying all teens are like that, but many are. I don't think Anakin is a brat. I think Anakin is immature, yes. But when he's venting "It's not fair!" to Padme, I think it's done as a means of expressing his feelings to someone who will finally listen to him. I do also sympathize with Obi-Wan in AotC; he's the single father trying to raise a teenage son, a son who, for the first ten years of his life, knew nothing of the ways of the Jedi. Other than the "It's not fair!" rant, I don't really see any other instances of bratiness, per se. But I can see what people would perceive as bratiness.

--Trying to contradict Obi-Wan in front of Padme when Obi refuses to investigate the assassination attempts

I think in this instance, we're seeing simply the fundamental differences in Ani's character as opposed to Obi's. Ani's more "proactive," he wants to take action to stop the assassin, rather than just sit around and wait for another attempt. Remember, this is the girl he's loved for half his life who is in danger. So I don't think his motivations in this case can be questioned (although I do think questioning Obi in front of her was as much used to impress her).

--The speeder chase

I think this scene just shows Anakin's reckless nature. I think it also shows Obi-Wan's relative lack of faith that the kid can do anything right. Yet, when they land at the club, it's all, "Yes, Master, Understood Master, Sorry Master..." rather than just telling the guy to go screw himself. I think this scene actually shows that he does have some respect for Obi-Wan.

--Complaining about Obi-Wan to Padme

Again, I think for the first time in a long time, Ani feels like he's found someone (other than Palps--blech) who will listen to his concerns and frustrations. I didn't particularly like the way the dialogue in that scene was written, but since GL likes to "mirror" things between the films, I think he was trying to imitate Luke's "It just isn't fair" mantra throughout ANH. I think it was a little over the top and that Anakin's frustrations could have been portrayed with a bit more subtlety, but I'm not a screenwriter, and no one cares what I think.

--"Excuse me! I'm in charge of security here, Milady!

Wounded pride, plain and simple. For the first time, someone has actually shown interest in Anakin's opinion, and Padme shoots him down, quickly reminding everyone that he's not a Jedi yet. Bad form on her part, even though it was true. But he quickly regroups with a courteous, "Sorry Milady."

--The garage confession

I agree that Ani was out of line in blaming Obi-Wan for Shmi's death. But I mean, his mother just died in his arms, and he subsequently massacres the people who killed her. It's not Anakin's most bright and shining character moment in the film. But in this scene, he's in pain, plain and simple. When something bad happens, our instinct as humans is to delegate blame. He did honestly believe that Obi-Wan was holding him back, but to state that Obi-Wan was "jealous" was a bit bratty, for lack of a better word. (Incidentally, I do believe there was a "rivalry" between Anakin and Obi-Wan from the word go; Qui-Gon basically dumps Obi-Wan for Anakin, and I'm sure Obi was resentful). Anyway, in this scene I can overlook the childishness Anakin displays on account of the fact that he's extremely distraught and not thinking rationally. Like I said, he felt like he failed his mother, and he knew he had failed when he killed the Tuskens.

--Aboard the gunship

Anakin wants to save Padme. Obi wants him to concentrate on his duty. Anakin is willing and ready to forego his career a

 

I don't like Anakin at all, period. He's too angry.

And I can never understand Obi-Wan. He's a dark enigma of Obi-Wan-ness to me.

 

I will not try to justify the labels ?Bratakin? or ?Saint Obi-Wan? right or wrong because the answers are in the eye of the beholder. The fact is you could type out justifications until your fingers bleed and you would not change anyone?s perception of Anakin or Obi-Wan.

As a writer I have always tried to provide reasons why my characters act one way or another regardless if it shows them in a favorable light. They all have histories, ideals, hopes, and dreams and that shapes them good and bad.

If I have gone to an extreme characterization, I think it is not because of a bias toward that character but rather poor writing skills on my part. I know this fact very well because I failed to properly set up a scene and the reasons why the characters would react the way they did and spent almost the entire trilogy trying to clean up the mess. It colored the readers perceptions of that character and nothing I did could change it. As a result, I have learned the hard way to be very careful in portraying a character and showing why they act/react the way they do.

I used to not care much for Vader until I wrote a vignette from his point of view and where I began to understand and even be sympathetic with him. I am not a big fan of Anakin?s even though I try not to go to extremes when writing him. I did get a better understanding of him when I wrote a vignette from his point of view. That understanding is now allowing me to write a story where he plays a major role in it and not just some side character or cameo that I would have done before.

Maybe this is a silly idea but there ought to be a workshop of some sort for promoting better understanding of the characters. Instead of randomly throwing justifications out for the way a character acts?good or bad?write a vignette from the opposite point of view. If you think Anakin is being a brat arguing with Obi-Wan during the scene where they first meet with Padmé then tell a story from Anakin?s point of view. Why does he say the things he does? Why does he react that way? How does he feel? Same thing with Obi-Wan. If you thought he did not try to understand Anakin in the ?Dreams pass with time? scene then write it from Obi-Wan?s point of view why he might be that way. How are dreams dealt with growing up in the Temple? What about Jedi training gives them no importance or significance? What do dreams mean to Obi-Wan? What is the reason behind the line?

 

Well, that's an interesting point, RRK. I used to be ambivalent, at best, about Obi-Wan, until I started actually writing him as a main character - it was just a matter of "getting to know him better", I suppose.

As for the "Thou Shalt Not Portray a Character in This Manner" vs. "anything goes" debate, yes, it is possible to go to extremes, but it's a good thing to be open minded enough to read something that might not dovetail precisely with a favorite "certain point of view".

-Tim

 

Maybe this is a silly idea but there ought to be a workshop of some sort for promoting better understanding of the characters.

There is the labotory thread (which is awesome in it's own right although I haven't checked in there lately...

If there isn't a current project going on I'll post the challange...


Edit
I tried but kept getting 'error messages' and am running away to Vancouver this morning with Ankin girl... no time now!

 

Hi,

CYN, I just wanted to say that I guess I misunderstood you when you were talking about Anakin being destinied to fall (several posts back). I agree that the ultimate responsibility for the decision is Anakin's alone, though I do say that rarely do people make decisions in a vacuum. Almost every decision we make is influenced by what we have been taught and experienced in the past.

Also, the idea of writing from the POV of a character you find hard to understand is great. How better to learn about that character than by walking in their shoes?

 

DarthBreezy
Here is the link The Laboratory

No, there is no current project going on since we just finished up the minor character challenge. I'm sure that they would love a challenge...You should check it out....

 

I don't know why both the unedited and edited posts were sent. This site has gremlins lately.

 

It occurs to me that maybe there is another way to look at this question - not from the writer's POV, but from the reader's.

Given that we all have preferences about who particular characters are and how they are portrayed, let me ask this: have any of you ever read a story that succeeded in changing your perceptions of a character? A story that was so well-written and insightful that it broke down a few inner barriers of prejudice and preference and opened up a path to a new view of a previously disliked character? And if so, what did the trick?

 

I can't say that I've read a story that has make me like a previously unliked character, because there are so few characters that I don't like. I have read some that have had the opposite effect, most notably with Qui-Gon, but they were good stories non-the-less. And he usually managed to redeem himself at some point.

There are many characters that I have a neutral stance on however. These are characters that I realistically see as being either a help or a hinderance depending on which characteristics are most played upon. Take Mace for example. I see him in some ways against Anakin, in that he only sees the problems, or with him, in that he sees the potential that needs nurturing. Yoda I view in much the same way. And I've seen examples of both, and agreed with both interpretations.

On a different note, I believe most characters are balanced in some way. Even the sainted ones have a downside, and the demonized ones have an upside. The only exceptions are perhaps Palp/Sidious, Tarkin, and the like, and that's only because I haven't found anything redeeming about them in anything I've seen/read. And I can find the opposite to neary anyone. But the point I'm trying to make is most everyone is balanced in some way, and I do appreciate those writers who show this.

--later--

 

Thank you dianethx for the link!!

It also can be applied to geo's brillaint question...

Before reading that fic the first time round, I thought that Qui-gon and Dukoo were both fairly 'flat'.. neither interested me that much...

Geo's rendering of Obi-Wan in both Childern of circumstance & Winds of Change gave me a fresh insight on the character and made me serioulsy want to flesh him out in my own right. I think that's the highest compliment that you can pay an author... when they've made you think.

 

If it's not too late to add my 2 cents...

I like Anakin and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon . I think: what's the big deal? They are 3 far-from-perfect but really great characters. I was fortunate enough to meet SW in the PT era, and even more fortunate to be introduced to fanfiction by the works of JediGaladriel, Meredith B Mallory, Rinabina... talented writers who write these controversial characters with insight and fairness and colour - shades of grey not black and white.

In fact, I only recently uncovered, so to speak, the whole Ani vs. OB1, OB1 vs. Qui-Gon factions in the JC/SW fandoms.

IMO, extreme characterisation is pointless. When you think about it carefully, that's like making a canon character into a Mary Sue. And like all Mary Sue characters, they will attract antipathy and not sympathy.

To quote my newest favourite writer Marnie: I think perhaps I'd like him[Obi-Wan] more if most other people worshipped him less, but I don't know... Which is exactly how I feel about Ginny Weasley in another fandom, but I disgress.

My own SW 'idol' is Padme Amidala. She's really hard to characterise - I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of writers that have described her to my satisfaction. So usually, as long as other elements of the story compensate and she is not drastically out of character, I'd read any good fic with her in it. And yes, it burns me up when I read a story that has her depicted as weak(man-clinging) or belligerent or snotty . My solution?: I take a note of the author and make sure we never cross paths again. It's very hard to change people's perceptions of reality, to say nothing of fiction, to say nothing of fan fiction, so attacking an 'incompatible' writer is usually counterproductive.

 

It's never too late to add your 2 cents! I also like Anakin and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon (I'll add Luke to make up the Fab Four!). I don't see why anyone needs to change the characters to make them more perfect (in the case of Obi-Wan) or more demonized (in the cases of Qui-Gon and Anakin). They are wonderfully flawed characters, with a rich history among them. Exploiting the flaws that are already there should be enough but people seem to like to make them worse/better than they already are.

I'm also a big fan of Marnie. Alas, she has gone on to LOTR fanfic and, as far as I know, isn't writing SW fanfic anymore. Darn! You might check out her website (her Stolen Ones story is fabulous although not completed). If you don't have the link, PM me and I'll send it to you.

 

After some of the discussion that's been going on in the movie forums lately (I mainly hang out in 3NSA because the other forums are a little too Mos Eisley Cantina-ish for my tastes), I think the upping of this thread is very timely. I have noticed a proliferation of people who want to demonize Anakin and canonize Obi-Wan and the entire Jedi Order, and even canonize the Tusken Raiders who tortured Anakin's mother to death. That tells me only that they are determined to demonize Anakin and, quite frankly, I'm surprised that these folks didn't canonize Palpatine in ROTJ ("Vader shouldn't have thrown him into the reactor core--he was unarmed"). I'm a little disgusted right now.

And as I've said before, don't get me wrong--I really do like Obi-Wan. However, although I certainly don't think he's responsible for Anakin's turn, you'll never convince me that he's perfect or didn't make some mistakes, or couldn't have done a few things differently with Anakin. As far as Anakin's fall--Anakin made his own choices, and as far as blaming someone else, I blame the Jedi Order as a whole for not recognizing the Anakin was different from other Jedi and instead trying to train him the same way they had done others who grew up in the Temple. A good teacher knows that you try your best to meet each individual student's needs in order to best get the material across. The Jedi Order were not good teachers by using the exact same methods to train each student. If I did that in my classroom, very few would succeed.

 

dianethx Marnie rocks, doesn't she! Her perspective of the Jedi Council is so unique. Not that I completely agree... but it goes to show the kind of insight and indepth thinking she must have done to come to that conclusion! And I love her Dooku . He is this sexy combination of dark and rebellious and aristocratic and I think that that perspective is probably the most accurate I've read.

anakin-girl: canonize the Tusken Raiders LOL! Oh, it can't be that bad!

 

Well my, rather late 2 cents, is that because many people have just decided they hate Anakin they overcompensate for that by making Obi-Wan into a saint. There is in fact, a lot of overcompensation for Anakin going on. It may be difficult and slightly unappealing for some people, but the fascinating challenge with Anakin (and Obi-wan to a lesser extent) is to acurately portray his duel nature- kind, loving person who has demons lurking in the back of his mind.


I love this quote from the ROTJ novelization. I know it's not considered true "cannon", but Obi-Wan is the first to tell you he's no saint:

"That Obi-Wan's hubris could have caused his father's fall was horrible. Horrible because of what his father had needlessly become, horrible because Obi-Wan wasn't perfect, wasn't even a perfect Jedi, horrible because the dark side could strike so close to home, could turn such right so wrong. Darth Vader must yet have a spark of Anakin Skywalker deep inside. "There is still good in him." "