The Demonizasion of Anakin Skywalker and the Sainthood of Obi-Wan Kenobi. A character discussion.

leia_naberrie: Oh yeah, it is. You wouldn't believe the excuses people make--that the Tuskens didn't know any better and they were torturing Shmi as part of a "sacred ritual", that they had the right to kidnap Shmi because the Larses and other settlers had taken over their land...

RebelScum: I love the ROTJ novelization because of what it says about Anakin towards the end--it reiterates what I was thinking about him back in 1983 when I initially watched the movie, and what I still think of him today.

As far as Obi-Wan--I've said this before. I don't think Obi-Wan was responsible for Anakin's fall. I think he did the best he could. I don't think he knew how to handle Anakin necessarily, after having been raised in the Temple all his life and never having to deal with familial attachments the way Anakin did--but I think he did try to understand, and that scene in which Obi-Wan is asking Anakin about his dreams is proof of that. Obi-Wan may have had his head buried in the sand to an extent regarding the Code and the Order itself, but certainly no more than the other Jedi--and maybe less.

 

I notice a lot of the writers on these boards who dedicate themselves exclusively to Anakin or Obi-Wan fics usually have huge crushes on Hayden Christensen (sp?) or Ewan McGregor. Which certainly explains why the authors then get so spikey about readers saying "Anakin's a brat" or "Obi-Wan's such a doofus." Hey, I defend my boyfriend, too. And I have also defended my imaginary boyfriends (Colin Firth, Russell Crowe, Han Solo, the brief Kevin Spacey fling, and on and on... lol). Btw, there's a great Onion article about this lady who mentally breaks up with Colin Farrell. Check it out, in theonion.com archives.

Moving away from the crush factor, I'd like to stress that, even though George Lucas isn't exactly Shakespeare, he does give the characters some depth. More depth than you see in a lot of these evil-Anakin vs. guilt-ridden St. Obi-Wan fics. (Or worse, the fics about St. Obi-Wan's eternal anguish and suffering due to the failures and death and OH WOE IS ME callousness of Qui-Gon Jinn. Endless ginger beards and graceful movements and weary, pale blue eyes... Gah! Stop! Stop!) We shouldn't forget that Anakin's a pretty funny guy (well, in a monotonous Jedi sort of way) and Obi-Wan can be such a prat (notice the chase scene in AOTC, when he's all like, "La la la, he went completely the other way." Argh! We know, you butt nugget! Just hold on a sec!)

And demonization has a T in it, yo. Mwahaha! Spelling and grammar nazi!

 

I agree with you to a point, Guerre, especially about Lucas giving the characters depth where the fans often don't. I think that's a big part about Star Wars that people often just don't get--the mythology, the spirituality, the journey of Every Man, Anakin Skywalker--and it frustrates the hell out of me.

The only part of your post I take issue with is this:

I notice a lot of the writers on these boards who dedicate themselves exclusively to Anakin or Obi-Wan fics usually have huge crushes on Hayden Christensen (sp?) or Ewan McGregor. Which certainly explains why the authors then get so spikey about readers saying "Anakin's a brat" or "Obi-Wan's such a doofus."

There are more reasons for being defensive of the two than just looks, and many of us aren't that superficial. Granted I wouldn't kick Hayden Christensen out of my bed for eating crackers, but he isn't the reason I like Anakin. I've been an Anakin fan since I saw his redemption in ROTJ back in 1983--and at the time, Hayden was toddling around in his diapers sucking on a bottle. He wasn't crush material yet.

 

This is a marvelous topic, Breezy. Thank you so much for bringing it up!




I don't know too much about Anakin and Obi-wan, really; I'm mainly an OT/EU writer and it's probably going to stay that way. But I have noticed, in things I've read, that yes, Anakin is nearly always demonized (or angelicized, as the case may be) and Obi-wan is either portrayed as an uncaring oaf or a saint whose life is a living martyr. I disagree with both of these portrayals very strongly. While I find Anakin and Obi-wan both hard to write, I adore reading about them, and they simply are more than one-dimensional characters.

As I look at the PT, I would have to say Anakin is my favorite character, in both movies, and will probably continue to be my favorite until the scene in Episode Three where the twins are born. (Luke will always be my favorite, no matter the age or circumstance.) He is so complex, so real, that I can almost reach out and touch him. His anger makes me think; it makes me wonder if were I in his circumstances, would I make his choices? Sometimes the answer frightens me.

That's the difference between a good character and a great character, ladies and gentlemen. When something you read makes you think; induces a deep sort of self-evaluation, it becomes more than just good. It becomes monumental. That is why Star Wars has become such a phenomenon today. It's filled with characters that stay with you, no matter how long it's been since you've seen a movie or read a book. You remember those things because they relate to who you are.

Obi-wan Kenobi is another character of this sort. As someone mentioned earlier, Obi-wan is the classic romantic hero, virtuous, upright, but tragic because of past errors that caused unforgettable, inerasable pain. He can't be portrayed as unloving, because that would defeat the purpose of his pain. If he hadn't loved Anakin, then there would have been no remorse over Anakin's turn or the destruction of his family. He cannot, however, be desribed as the perfect parent, because if he had raised Anakin perfectly, then what happened might have been prevented. It's a very thin balancing line that must be approached carefully.

Finding the balance in a character is a hard thing to do, and certainly no author should be critcized when he or she misses that mark. I've been writing for years now (though not quite as long as some of you) and I look back and find I've learned so much, but I still have so much to learn. It's a process that never ends as long as we keep writing.

I've found that a tight community of authors who write in different genres helps me tremendously. I have a close-knit group of friends whose works vary from the distant past time period all the way past the New Jedi Order. If I have a question, I can go to one of them and usually they will give me the help I need.

Regarding Luke the whiny farmboy: this is a pet peeve of mine! Luke Skywalker was raised in the desert as an only child, probably doted upon some by his aunt, but more or less raised in a strict enviornment because his uncle was afraid he'd go the ways of his father. He was not a spoiled brat when he was eighteen, and very certainly was not when he grew older, yet this characterization follows him everywhere! It's hard for me to understand why a short scene in one movie brands a character for always. Luke was a teenager; future Jedi Master or not, all teenagers are like that at some time. We know that he was already frustrated with his uncle for not letting him get away in seasons past. He was getting restless. And he was a teenager, to boot. This doesn't mean he was spoiled or that whining is one of his major character flaws. That attitude would most certainly not follow him into his adult years.

Mara Jade's character is the one I see butchered most often. Authors who do not know her character (or have not read Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy) assume that since she served the Emperor, then she must be bad. Mara is a complex character with feelings and emotions and flaw

 

Actually, Guerre most of the characters have some humor to them. I'd say that Anakin, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon all have a subtle sense of humor (much more so than ... say Han).

This is quite interesting because we were just talking about character depth in the Obi-Wan thread and how your perceptions change with each movie. Old Obi-Wan now has a complete backstory and makes his ultimate sacrifice even more powerful than before. Same with Anakin. The backstory makes us see nuances in Darth Vader's actions that we might have missed otherwise.

As for me, I like all the main characters pretty much equally.

And I'm with you Emilie on Luke. He was not whiny - he was frustrated and bored. Heck, if I'd been stuck out in the back of beyond like him, I probably would have been doing a lot worse things than just complaining. Luke's voyage from naive teenager to Jedi Master is a facinating one - unfortunately most people don't seem to write him well at all.

 

Emilie brings up a really good point about not only the demonization of Anakin but also the angelicization of him (I'm not sure if that's a word, lol).

Making Obi-Wan a saint, and Anakin either devil or angel is taking the easy way out. I think that's why it happens so often. Anakin- depending on whether you love or hate him. But no one is that uncomplex, and it's sort of an insult to these dynamic characters. I don't think there's any excuse for it. I've read pure humor fics where I've still gotten new 3-dimensional insight into Anakin.

Since we are using characters that someone else has created I find it entirely more interesting to delve into the "reality" of that person using the confines given to us. There is certainly room for interpretation though. But Obi-Wan is still no saint and Anakin isn't that one-dimensional, either way. The strange thing is, everyone from The Force to Padme, from Obi-Wan to Palpatine is responsible for Anakin's fall, but at the exact same time, no one is responsible except for Anakin. It's a weird paradox that's hard to get ahold of. But I encourage people to take that challenge instead of taking the easy way out.

 

Talk about stirring up the hornets' nest! I take full credit for resurrecting this thread!
Ditto to GuerreStellari abt the imaginary boyfriend factor. I am partial to Christopher Lee myself and have been for as long as I can remember (which is very long because I fell in love with Count Dracula when I was eight and my parents are very responsible, thank you very much) so I am an unblushing Dooku apologist.

But seriously speaking, in RebelScum77's words: Since we are using characters that someone else has created I find it entirely more interesting to delve into the "reality" of that person using the confines given to us. I find it entirely more fair to their creator. This is why I always get my hackles up over Ginny Weasly. Most people can't write her well without caricaturizing Hermione Granger. But that, as they say, is another story.

EDIT: Typos.

 

I write them both ways, because we can see the not-so-good side of Obi-Wan, can see that the first thing knew of his Father was that he murdered his Master. But he's an anal goodguy in the movies. So avoiding canonization is hard. And Anakin, it's best to keep him progressing towards darkness, but still good until the moment it all goes kaboom...

 

DarthIshtar: "I write them both ways, because we can see the not-so-good side of Obi-Wan, can see that the first thing knew of his Father was that he murdered his Master." Huh? Is this EU?

 

I agree about the 'angel' quality that is sometimes interwoven into Anakin's character. He's often portrayed as the victim, when I just don't think that's the case.

And Obi-Wan is written to be a saint sometimes, but in other instances he's either a whiny, overemotional kid or an emotionless, incapable jerk.

It really all depends on the author's ideas and preferences.

 

I haven't seen the "angel" quality interwoven into Anakin's character as of yet.

I have had the problem with JA fics that always seem to portray Obi-Wan as a snivelling pitiful victim and Qui-Gon as the emotionless jerk, and then there are fics, usually post-TPM but pre-AOTC, in which Anakin is written as a spoiled rotten whiny brat and Obi-Wan as the poor pitiful victim who had this brat shoved on him by his dying master.

My personal viewpoint is that Obi-Wan is probably the most tragic figure in Star Wars. When training Anakin he did the best he could with what he had--unfortunately he, as a brand-new Knight who had no way of understanding Anakin's background, wasn't prepared to train someone as powerful as Anakin who was so much different from the other Jedi. I still say he was no saint--he was way too anal, put too much stock in the Code and was way too by-the-book--but that doesn't mean he was a cold emotionless jerk or that he was uncompassionate--I always found him to be quite the opposite.

Anakin was a victim to a point--he was a slave until he was ten years old, and then by choosing to follow his dreams and become a Jedi, he was forced to leave behind the one person who had ever loved him. The Jedi weren't equipped to teach him how to get over that. Then again, he made some choices of his own--I don't know how hard he tried to adjust to the lifestyle required by the Jedi; I don't know how hard he tried to control his fear, anger and sadness. I don't know if he knew how. I believe that when he turned to the Dark Side, he had good intentions--he really did believe that the Republic wasn't working anymore and that joining Palpatine's New Order was best for both the Republic and for his family--however, he did have the warnings given to him in his Jedi training regarding the "quick, easy path", and he chose not to heed them.

But no one is that uncomplex, and it's sort of an insult to these dynamic characters.

I agree 100 percent, which is why I can't stand seeing either of these characters written one-dimensionally.

 

dianethx : Thanks for the offer for Marnie's site but I'm an experienced writer stalker and I've already been there!

anakin-girl: the Tuskens didn't know any better and they were torturing Shmi as part of a "sacred ritual" Why are you getting so worked up? Doesn't that argument prove Anakin's Barbarian Theory ('they were like animals and I slaughtered them like animals').

Like Emilie I also agree that Finding the Balance (this phrase was actually meant to have been the authentic name for this thread but Breezy wanted something more reactionary) is hard and no author should be criticized when she misses the mark - but only up to a point. I love Padmé?s character but I am aware that I can't write her to my own satisfaction. Some writers deliberately miss the mark because they want to ? due to their own personal bias for or against the characters; and that's what this discussion is about - the deliberate caricaturising of a character. For example, most don't like Hermione Granger because of the perceived threat to the H/G ideal and hence - OT again!

By the way, is it my imagination or are the characters more likely to be sterotyped usually female characters? e.g. Mara, Padme, Hermione... Even canonizing a character is diminishing that character's value. No one likes a Mary Sue.

 

I have had the problem with JA fics that always seem to portray Obi-Wan as a snivelling pitiful victim and Qui-Gon as the emotionless jerk, and then there are fics, usually post-TPM but pre-AOTC, in which Anakin is written as a spoiled rotten whiny brat and Obi-Wan as the poor pitiful victim who had this brat shoved on him by his dying master.

But isn't that how they really are?



I actually don't know of many fics that tip the scale completely in one direction or the other. Usually authors find a balance that they like. Sometimes, that means Qui's more of a jerk, Obi's more of the poor suffering one, or Anakin's slightly the misunderstood kid and Obi's somewhat of a poodoo head.

I think that system works, partly. The 'default setting' (or whatever you want to call it) is what the author decides when she starts a fic, and it's the chosen character traits that move the plot along. An author might choose to have a more negative Jinn in one story and a more positive one in the next; each story would be completely different were the two different manifestations of Jinn to switch places.

The different views on these characters is influenced with how the author understood the movies, of course. I'm well aware of the popularity in fan fic regarding Qui-Gon's love for pathetic life-forms, but when I heard that line in TPM, I just thought Obi-Wan was cracking a joke. I also interpreted the ending of TPM a bit differently; I thought Obi had fully accepted Anakin and did not continue to feel betrayed by Qui.

And for AOTC, some people thought Anakin was whiny - that was how he came across to them. To others, he was a kid smitten by love caught up in events too large for him to handle. *shrugs* It's all how we perceive them, and everyone does so differently, methinks.

 

Author's interpretation or no, I think it is oversimplistic and doesn't do the characters any justice to write them all one way or all another way. It can also make for a pretty boring fic, unless you are on a "poor pitiful Obi" or an Anakin hate-fest, which unfortunately some folks are.

 

And, of course, there are "poor, misunderstood Anakin" and "Obi-Wan, the incapable Master who survives due to luck" hate fests as well. I think that's found a lot in literature, television, movies, etc very often, expecially if someone identifies very closely with a character, or sees some of the character's traits within themselves. They'll be more apt to defend that character, thus defending their own tendencies, etc. Then there are those that just adore a certain actor, and then, uh, it's a little bit different.

I think people misinterpret Padme often because she's not as fleshed out as Obi-Wan and Anakin. I mean, she's not even in the OT, except for a mention or two, so there's much less for an author to go off of.

The Anakin angel thing shows up more in fics where he's quite young. I know that he's a child during that time period, and was NOT evil or corrupted, but there had to be a flash or two of what was to come, even if they're very weak and restrained. Elements of his personality surfacing as he matures and grows.

The pathetic life form issue seems like it was a joke to me, HHP, so I agree totally with you. I think that was discussed quite well in the Workshop. Qui-Gon is in a similar boat as Padme, in that he wasn't given much screen time to allow his character's facets to be shown. And the JA books--ha, well, let's not get into those. I think a lot of authors take the scenes where he slights Obi-Wan and glean much of their characterization from them. Which isn't completely wrong, because it would appear, at first, that he was being insensitive and hurtful when he did those things, such as in the Council room. But in his final scene, despite his tenacity in getting Obi-Wan to promise to train Anakin, the affection between them is palpable. So again, it's all about balance. I think dianethx writes him extremely well. It's like watching a SW film its so accurate and realistic.

 

The 'default setting' (or whatever you want to call it) is what the author decides when she starts a fic, and it's the chosen character traits that move the plot along. - Well said HHP

That's probably the single most important decision an author can make and it will affect all the MC/OCs and plot throughout the fic. Each of us must decide how to portray our favorite villians and heroes. We pick and choose those characteristics based on likes/dislikes in our own POV as well as those set into the "canon" films, "non-canon" EU and other fanfics. And the reader always brings his/her own POV into the mix. So an "angelic" Anakin might be accepted by one and scorned by another. A poor, pitiful Obi-Wan might make some people cheer and others groan. I will admit that I have yet to see Padme written really well and appropriately to the movies. She is a difficult character to write since she seems almost to be two different people (stoic, dutiful, stubborn, proud versus playful, kind, joyful).

The other problem with writing these characters is that we rarely get to see them playing (the AOTC picnic scene was a notable exception). Most of the time they are dodging blaster fire or lightsabers. Not a good time for displaying the softer aspects of their personalities.



I know that when I read/write a fic, I take my own baggage, my own interpretations of nuance, body movement and dialog from movies and stories to write the characters as I perceive them. As HHP and LE said, the pathetic lifeform crack I took as a joke between Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon. Each of us watching the infamous Council scene from TPM (it still begs to be rewritten) will see different things in the exact same imagery. You can't get around that. It is what you do with the baggage that makes the story.

LE That was the sweetest thing to say!!! I am deeply honored that you think I write Qui-Gon well. I try, I really do. Thank you so much!

 

And, of course, there are "poor, misunderstood Anakin" and "Obi-Wan, the incapable Master who survives due to luck" hate fests as well. I think that's found a lot in literature, television, movies, etc very often, expecially if someone identifies very closely with a character, or sees some of the character's traits within themselves. They'll be more apt to defend that character, thus defending their own tendencies, etc.

Actually I do think Anakin was misunderstood, and I'll admit that one reason I will vehemently defend him is because I see a lot of his traits in myself--hence my screen name. That is also why I will get so offended when someone either goes on an Anakin-hate-fest or writes Anakin as either a Dennis-The-Menace next to poor long-suffering Obi-Wan, or as this horrible monster as an adult (and I do mean before he turns to the Dark Side)--someone who turns because he decides "I think it will be cool to kill some people today."

However, I also think that writing Obi-Wan as an "incapable master who survives due to luck" is doing a horrible injustice to him. Obi-Wan was a good master--he did the best he could with what he had--he just had no concept of how to relate to a slave boy who had been raised by his mother. He had his flaws--I agree with Anakin that he was hypercritical--he reminds me of my military-officer father in being "by-the-book" to a fault. (I love my dad, but he was at least 50 before he ever learned to lighten up.) Therefore I also think it is wrong to write him as a saint.

 

I?m glad to see this discussion revived? I had registered earlier just to place a comment but I was sidetracked.

Most defenders of Obi-Wan Kenobi?s character take their arguments from the OT. That, in my opinion, is a far too simplistic view. The Star Wars saga has a lot of discontinuities due to the constant evolution of the story - from a single movie to a trilogy to a two-trilogy saga - and these changes reflect in the characters as well.



In the original Star Wars (now what is called A New Hope), Obi-Wan Kenobi is the ?Gandalf? of Star Wars. He is the eccentric, good-natured old wizard that is forced out of retirement to go on a quest. He guides Luke (?Frodo?) with his wisdom and knowledge and eventually lays his life down in order that the ?Fellowship? may go on.

By the time, GL went from one-shot movie to Trilogy; Obi-Wan?s rather one-dimensional character has evolved. We find out that he?s a man of dubious integrity - the truth from a certain point of view - who is not above manipulating a young, impressionable man into carrying out his own agenda. That this is a characteristic apparently shared by the Jedi Order (in this case Yoda who is the entire remainder of the Order) and not just Obi-Wan?s personal values might explain it but it does not excuse it. The issue of his ?arrogance? is first brought into play?: "I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." Here even before the benefit of the Chosen One dilemma, we already get the impression that Anakin/Vader was a Jedi of exceptional strength who was way above Obi-Wan?s league but for reasons of personal pride, Obi-Wan insisted in training him.



The Prequel sheds more light on his character. We learn more about the Jedi - their training structure, their Temple? We see that Obi-Wan was not trained by Yoda as he led Luke to believe in the OT but by another Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn. Of course, this was a later addition by GL - just as in the case of the Anakin/Vader duality. But we cannot ignore the fact that the creator of these characters is trying to send a message across - that by the time of the Empire, Obi-Wan was so alienated from Qui-Gon Jinn (undoubtedly, he held Qui-Gon responsible for Vader) that he chose to obliterate even his memory. It sheds new light into the issue of exactly how much love and affection he had for Qui-Gon and whether it was not just immature possessiveness that made him unhappy over the ?Anakin? issue.

The statement made by Yoda in Episode 2 about arrogance is embodied in Obi-Wan?s personae. The Obi-Wan of Episode 1 is an elitist - ?pathetic life form? comment. Yes, it was obviously a joke but a specie-ist joke all the same. (Conned from ?racist?: Someone makes a good joke about an Asian?s eyes. Funny only when you?re not Asian.) More tellingly, he was quite willing to leave Jar Jar to whatever fate awaited him in the Gungan city after Jar Jar had helped them. He was disinterested in Anakin - his life as a slave, his dreams, the fact that the boy?s utter selflessness enabled them to get off the planet - and all Obi-Wan could see was his Master?s latest wild cause - ?don?t go against the Council again Master, if you?d only conform, you?d be on the Council, the boy?s dangerous, they all sense it.? The last statement is unfortunately the most telling one. Obi-Wan didn?t sense Anakin was dangerous. It was enough for him that the Council dud. One can be certain that no matter what last-breath request Qui-Gon made, if Obi-Wan genuinely distrusted Anakin, he would not have trained him. My grandmother (bless her) could have asked me on her deathbed to adopt a snake but sorry, no can do.



Episode 2, approximately twenty years before the OT and ten years after Episode 1, we can see a transition. There is affection between Obi-Wan and Anakin, almost certainly one-sided, but there is no doubt Obi-Wan cares for him. It still does not stop him from resenting the burden Qui-Gon placed on him (the DVD deleted scene b

 

rogue_winter, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with a good bit of what you've said.

We find out that he?s a man of dubious integrity - the truth from a certain point of view - who is not above manipulating a young, impressionable man into carrying out his own agenda.

I have to strongly disagree with your characterization of Obi-Wan's integrity. After all, this is a man who has admitted his failures and is haunted by them - to the point where he spends twenty years in the desert to look after the son of a man who will ultimately kill him. As to his manipulation of Luke...well, no question that his "certain point of view" explanation was a bit on the lame side, but really, what should he have told Luke at that point in his journey? "Your father isn't dead - he's a mass murderer and the Emperor's iron fist." What good would that have done? That would have tainted Luke's journey from the beginning.

But we cannot ignore the fact that the creator of these characters is trying to send a message across - that by the time of the Empire, Obi-Wan was so alienated from Qui-Gon Jinn (undoubtedly, he held Qui-Gon responsible for Vader) that he chose to obliterate even his memory.

Um...Obi-Wan never held anyone other than Obi-Wan Kenobi ultimately responsible for Darth Vader - not even Vader himself. "My pride had terrible consequences for the galaxy."

As for Obi-Wan's arrogance, I don't see that he had any more or less than any other Jedi, and probably had much less than his own apprentice. The "pathetic lifeform" joke, to me, sounded more like playful exasperation with a Jedi Master who had a proclivity for getting sidetracked with such things during the course of a mission. That doesn't mean the joke was in good taste, and certainly not PC. As for whether or not he personally sensed that Anakin was dangerous...he may not have had any specific premonitions about Anakin, but he did have "a bad feeling" about the situation on Naboo, a sense of foreboding that may very well have been rooted in Anakin's future. But if nothing else, Obi-Wan is loyal, and that meant keeping a promise to his dying Master regardless of what the Council said.

He still has elitist views - ?don?t forget she?s a politician and she?s not to be trusted? (Anakin hit the nail on the head when he accused him of generalizing). There is still arrogance in the way he treats Anakin. (In the ?disagreement? scene, I?ve always wondered how explicit the Council?s orders were. Did they really say in black and white that the Jedi should only protect Amidala or was it merely subject to interpretation?

That's not elitism, that's cynicism, and a natural offshoot of overexposure to politics. I mean, come on, how many politicians are really honest? And Anakin himself isn't overly fond of politics and politicians, as shown by his conversation with Padme in the meadow scene. His interest and affection for Padme and Palpatine have nothing to do with politics.

As for the argument in Padme's apartment, that seemed to me to be a young man trying to impress the woman he loves and opening his mouth before engaging his brain. Obi-Wan could have handled that a little more gracefully, instead of humiliating Anakin in front of an audience, but the bottom line is that they were there for a mission and the Master and the Padawan needed to be on the same sheet of music as regards to how it should be handled. We don't know whether or not the Council gave specific guidance, since we don't see them briefing Obi-Wan and Anakin on the assignment.

What I?ve attempted to do is paint a portrait of the character of Obi-Wan based on facts, not interpretation of facts but the facts themselves which is where I think a lot of the conflict most writers/readers face originate from.

The "facts" as I see them and the "facts" as you see them seem to be pretty different. It all comes down to the writer's personal interpretation of the events in the movies.

Dang, this may be the longest non-story post I've ever writte

 

Just a note to say I'm so glad this thread is still going strong, it just seems that lately I haven't been able to think of a cohearant reply for it when I'm about!

Keep it up!

 

I'm in complete agreement with you, DarthLothi.

 

As am I, well said Lothi.

 

I believe that rogue_winter has made several interesting and thought-provoking points, some of which I am going to have to think about very carefully.

It is true that GL went from a single movie to a series without a sense of continuity. Heck, he's still violating continuity left and right and I expect him to continue to do so in the next movie. This does make his characters seem almost deceptive at times... Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" being a large one!
However, the "arrogance" perceived by one is not necessarily perceived by others the same way. Obi-Wan's guilty revelation about training Vader could be viewed as arrogance or guilt or persistance or stubbornness. The "fact" that Obi-Wan said it remains without doubt. His motivation is highly debated and continues to be so.

The training question is also of facts and motive. Your suggestion that Obi-Wan was so disenchanted by Qui-Gon that he didn't mention him to Luke. But why should he? He said that Luke should go to the Dagobah system to learn from Yoda, the Jedi who instructed Obi-Wan. That is true. It was also true that Yoda was the only one left - there was no reason to mention Jinn at all. I don't see this as unhappiness with his old Master. However, I could see people writing a fic based on that supposition. A good point and one worth exploring.

I won't go into the "pathetic lifeform" comment. It's been done. However, I believe that when Obi-Wan said that the boy was dangerous, he meant it. Why else would he say such a thing? And even after he began to train Anakin, it is possible that he could continue to think the boy was dangerous and alter his training accordingly. I liked your analogy of adopting a snake but if you were asked to adopt a disruptive dog, you might think twice, especially if you thought the dog could be retrained. And Anakin was more awkward, young-tearing-up-the-carpet dog at that moment than snake.

As for the argument with Ani and Obi-Wan in Padme's apartment, I was appalled at both behaviors. Obi-Wan should have never argued in front of a Senator but cut Ani off much sooner. Anakin should never have challenged Obi in that situation either. That speaks of a problem in their relationship that goes very deep.

I would very much like to see your take on the others you've mentioned. Your comments have me itching to replay my old SW tapes. Good job with bringing up several points worth noting!

 

Well, I never expected everyone to take my views at face value but I?m glad they were considered fairly. Most people have very strong opinions of this characters and my humble, though revered, insight is hardly going to be taken as gospel!



In response to my first detractor, DarthLothi:


I have to strongly disagree with your characterization of Obi-Wan's integrity. After all, this is a man who has admitted his failures and is haunted by them - to the point where he spends twenty years in the desert to look after the son of a man who will ultimately kill him.

Well, isn?t that a case of reversing cause and effect? Obi-Wan certainly didn?t know that Vader was going to ultimately end up killing him. That he spends twenty years in the desert watching over Luke is more of an incidental penance than anything else. If Obi-Wan had tried to leave Tatooine ? and expose himself to Vader and the Emperor ? he would have been killed. He remained in the desert for twenty years as much for his protection as for Luke?s.

Obi-Wan must have had some genuine affection for Luke, I admit that. But the fact was that Luke was being watched not just out of loyalty to Anakin but primarily because he (Luke) was the only person strong enough to be able to take down Vader and the Emperor. (That boy is our only hope.) One can almost argue that the biological relationship between Vader and Luke was incidental as far as Obi-Wan and Yoda were concerned. Luke was strong in the Force, strong enough to defeat two Sith Lords if properly trained. And that was the primary reason that he was being watched after- his usefulness to the Jedi and the Galaxy as a whole and not his personal happiness and wellbeing.


What should he have told Luke at that point in his journey? "Your father isn't dead - he's a mass murderer and the Emperor's iron fist." What good would that have done? That would have tainted Luke's journey from the beginning.

Well, doesn?t that depend on what is more important: the happiness of the one or the happiness of the many? In the words of JK Rowling?s Dumbledore: the truth is generally preferable to lies. And there were so many other lies that Obi-Wan could have said. He could have said Anakin Skywalker died in the Clone Wars - which is another truth from a certain point of view - and left it there. He chose the one that would ensure an immediate enmity between Luke and Vader.

And even if he had not told Luke the truth immediately, what about the three years between Yavin and Hoth? Or while he was being trained by Yoda (Please note. I am not holding Obi-Wan personally responsible for deceiving Luke. That this was done with Yoda?s complicity is undoubted. Like I wrote earlier, this is typical Jedi behaviour).


As to his manipulation of Luke...well, no question that his "certain point of view" explanation was a bit on the lame side.

Well, we both agree on something there!


As for Obi-Wan's arrogance, I don't see that he had any more or less than any other Jedi, and probably had much less than his own apprentice.

And, we don't!

I was not trying to imply that Obi-Wan was more arrogant than any Jedi or Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan was - is a typical Jedi with typical Jedi arrogance. (The scene with Yoda and Mace seemed to be a ?sign of the times? so to speak). If you define arrogance as indifference to others? opinions and feelings then Obi-Wan was arrogant. He was arrogant in TPM with his dealings with Jar Jar and Anakin. He was arrogant in AotC with his interaction with Amidala and his Padawan.


That doesn't mean the joke was in good taste, and certainly not PC.

Another consensus! [face_shocked]


As for whether or not he personally sensed that Anakin was dangerous...he may not have had any specific premonitions about Anakin, but he did have "a bad feeling" about the situation on Naboo, a sense of foreboding that may very well hav

 

This is certainly a good discussion going. I have to add my disagreement with the following points:

Obi-Wan must have had some genuine affection for Luke, I admit that. But the fact was that Luke was being watched not just out of loyalty to Anakin but primarily because he (Luke) was the only person strong enough to be able to take down Vader and the Emperor. (That boy is our only hope.) One can almost argue that the biological relationship between Vader and Luke was incidental as far as Obi-Wan and Yoda were concerned. Luke was strong in the Force, strong enough to defeat two Sith Lords if properly trained. And that was the primary reason that he was being watched after- his usefulness to the Jedi and the Galaxy as a whole and not his personal happiness and wellbeing.

Luke is the only hope because he is the son of Vader. Yes he has presumably inherited Anakin's impossibly high midichlorian count. But that is not why Obi-Wan and Yoda are putting all their faith in him. If he was only a weapon, then why didn't they start training him earlier? Training a Jedi at the age of 19 would have been unthinkable, unless there was a good reason. Luke had to grow up normally, in a loving family, the opposite of Anakin, to keep that strength and devotion to family. Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that the only way into Vader's black heart is through his family- through him and Padme's son.

And there were so many other lies that Obi-Wan could have said. He could have said Anakin Skywalker died in the Clone Wars - which is another truth from a certain point of view - and left it there. He chose the one that would ensure an immediate enmity between Luke and Vader.

And even if he had not told Luke the truth immediately, what about the three years between Yavin and Hoth? Or while he was being trained by Yoda?

There are a number of reasons for this. Yes, it was to create animosity between Luke an Vader, but to what end? That was the only way to ensure Luke going after Vader without actually telling him the real truth. It was also undoubtedly a test- to see if Luke would use his anger. But why wasn't he told to begin with? Because, it wasn't Luke who had to admit that he was Vader's son, it was Vader who had to admit he was Luke's father. That was the entire purpose... acceptance being an important factor in his ultimate redemption. Like all people going through the grief process, acceptance is the biggest step. One could say Vader has been going through that process since before his turn.

Ben told Luke the most "truthful lie" to make, what he hoped to be, Vader's revelation more powerful to Luke. Saying his good father was killed by Darth Vader makes Anakin worth trying to redeem, that Vader was not his true self and *maybe* there's a bit of that still locked inside. Saying his father died in the Clone Wars does not have nearly the same impact once once Vader has told Luke the truth. Obi-Wan's clever "lie" becomes all the more stirring and powerful once it's revealed as a "the truth from certain point of view"- driving Luke try and redeem his father, and in turn helping Anakin fulfill the prophecy as Ben and Yoda hoped he would.