The Demonizasion of Anakin Skywalker and the Sainthood of Obi-Wan Kenobi. A character discussion.

(Always fun to argue with you, Kirk. )

So it was necessary for Obi-Wan to lie to Luke about his father, just that it was unacceptable to lie about Vader?

It's not that one lie is necessary and the other is unacceptable per se...I just don't see why it was necessary for Obi-Wan to include Vader in the lie. Why does he need to make Luke hate Vader...which telling him that Vader killed his father was bound to do?

Disagreeing about politics and education is one thing - what Anakin and Padme disagree on is the difference between democracy and dictatorship. Those two systems can never be reconciled.

But education is my career, just as politics is Padme's. As far as the democracy vs. dictatorship thing...again, this is just my speculation, and there are no spoilers involved...I don't think Anakin joins Palpatine because he thinks dictatorship is, in principle, better than democracy. I think he joins Palpatine because he feels that the Old Republic's system is not working and that Palpatine's "New Order" (which Palpatine takes special care to pretend it isn't a dictatorship--remember his line "I love democracy") is what the system needs at the moment to restore peace. I think Palpatine fools Padme into going along with him as well, by making her believe that he is on the side of ending the "destructive conflict" and restoring peace to the galaxy. Twelve of the most Force-sensitive beings in the galaxy--the Jedi Council--couldn't see what Palpatine was up to. Why would a non-Force-sensitive Senator see it? Palpatine has been duping Padme through two movies so far, convincing her that he has her best interests at heart...I don't see that he would not continue to do so, and continue to succeed in fooling her.

That doesn't mean that Padme would give up on Anakin - I think she will be trying right up until the very end to bring him back.

I sort of agree with you. I don't know that Padme will necessarily ever know that Anakin is "gone" so to speak. I'm not even sure that he turns while she's still alive...I don't see him leaving her for Palpatine and his ideals. If Padme were still alive and tried to bring Anakin back, I believe she would succeed, more quickly than her son did 22 years later.

 

And I would be incredibly disappointed if Padme did give up her principles for Anakin. Disagreeing about politics and education is one thing - what Anakin and Padme disagree on is the difference between democracy and dictatorship. Those two systems can never be reconciled. That doesn't mean that Padme would give up on Anakin - I think she will be trying right up until the very end to bring him back.

I totally agree with DarthLothi on that point. Padme's a politician at heart, but one who wants to help the world, as evidenced by her early service in helping in the Refugee crisis. Anakin will end up joining a dictatorship - something that Padme would never agree with, as she already told him in the picnic scene.

[edit - anakin_girl posted while I was typing ] I also believe that Anakin would join Palpatine because he feels it is the right thing to do at the time. However, I also feel that, because Palpatine's ultimate goal is dictatorship, that Padme would probably sense what he is up to much earlier than Anakin, because of her resistance to dictatorship but also the army which she was flatly against, and which Palpatine took command of.

Someone mentioned above about how Obi-Wan responds to Padme. At first, he is the polite professional when he greets her: "It's a pleasure" and later on he reassures her: "We will get to the bottom of this, milady. You'll be back in no time."

However, Obi-Wan also seems to have a distrust of Padme: "Remember, she's a politician and they're not to be trusted." When I first heard that line, I was confused - Obi-Wan knows Padme (she was the queen of her planet and risked her life to return in order to help them) and I thought he would hold her in high esteem.

And as someone else also pointed out, it's more cynicism on his part when he says that. However, I think Obi-Wan is serving as a contrasting point to Anakin concerning Padme (and politicians). Anakin automatically trusts her, as he does Palpatine - which we know is something Anakin should not be doing. Obi-Wan distrusts unfairly (perhaps) and Anakin trusts too easily (perhaps). Just my thoughts.

 

I also believe that Anakin would join Palpatine because he feels it is the right thing to do at the time. However, I also feel that, because Palpatine's ultimate goal is dictatorship, that Padme would probably sense what he is up to much earlier than Anakin, because of her resistance to dictatorship but also the army which she was flatly against, and which Palpatine took command of.

Padme was against it because she didn't want war. War happened anyway in spite of efforts to prevent it (and Palpatine pretended to be among those trying to prevent it). Padme at Geonosis obviously saw that her original plan for keeping the peace had not worked and they were thrust into war whether she wanted to be or not. I think that while Padme may seem idealistic, she also knows when her ideals have failed and she needs to march to a different drummer. As far as Palpatine...he pretends to be just as vehemently against dictatorship as Padme is. This is more evident in the screenplay and the novelization than the movie, but it is there. (I have a copy of the original screenplay, bought from a collector's store in Seattle.) He fools everyone, including the Force-sensitive Jedi, into believing that he is on their side. Maybe Anakin is too quick to trust Palpatine, but Anakin has not been the only one fooled by him...the Jedi are as well. I don't see Padme being smarter than the Jedi Council.

 

As I see it now, it's about time the woman fell in love with something besides her political office--and I will be horribly disappointed in Episode III if she pulls a stunt like "Anakin, I love you, but I just can't support your going against my political ideals." And if she starts the Rebellion, I will be tempted to walk out of the theater and ask for my money back. I mean, gag. That would be like my leaving my husband if we had different views on education, or on learning foreign language. A woman overly attached to her career is just as pathetic as a woman overly attached to a man. I like balance. >>

Agreed with Lothi. Falling in love does not mean radically altering, or destroying, the person you are. Nor should it. And I would be sorely dissappointed - remember, Padme was leading armies before we in the states can legally drive a car. She's a brilliant, remarkable woman apart from anything to do with Anakin, and to have her reduced to nothing more than scenery, or have billions die under Palpatine because Padme Amidala couldn't sleep alone...THAT would make me walk out of the theater.

And what is wrong with loving politics? The Republic obviously badly needed more politicians like her. What's the point of having a "strong woman" character if all she really cares about is finding a man and then throwing her ideals out the window as soon as she does so?

-Tim

 

Nothing's wrong with loving politics. I love teaching. I love kids. But my husband comes first.

And you know me, Tim--I'm far from being "traditional".

She's a brilliant, remarkable woman apart from anything to do with Anakin, and to have her reduced to nothing more than scenery, or have billions die under Palpatine because Padme Amidala couldn't sleep alone...

She's definitely brilliant and remarkable in and of herself...that's not up for debate as far as I'm concerned. However, billions will not die under Palpatine because Padme couldn't sleep alone. Billions will not die under Palpatine because of Anakin Skywalker. Billions will die under Palpatine because Palpatine is a power-hungry evil Sith Lord, and because the old Jedi Order was too blind, too obtuse, and too steeped in their own inflexible Code to notice his rise to power right under their noses.

Padme has been portrayed as a good person so far, a brilliant, level-headed politician. I don't want to see her love for Anakin portrayed as a flaw that ends up costing her her life. I don't want to see her become a martyr because she went against her husband. After all she and Anakin have been through together, I don't want to see her dump him for her career, any more than I want to see him dump her for Palpatine. I don't want to see her as a perfect Mary Sue character even more brilliant than the Jedi Council (Palpatine being able to dupe them but not her). We all know she dies at some point before the OT, but I would rather it be in an accident that Anakin blames on the Jedi as opposed to Palpatine killing her with Anakin's knowledge, or Anakin killing her himself.

I think part of this comes from my extreme irritation over posts like, "How could someone like Padme love someone like Anakin?" as if Anakin weren't lovable, or only a stupid, desperate person would love him. I don't consider myself stupid and I'm certainly not desperate, but I found Anakin adorable. After being around boring politicians all her life, Padme could easily have fallen for his passion. I listed other reasons above why Padme might have fallen for him.

 

Padme has been portrayed as a good person so far, a brilliant, level-headed politician. I don't want to see her love for Anakin portrayed as a flaw that ends up costing her her life. I don't want to see her become a martyr because she went against her husband. After all she and Anakin have been through together, I don't want to see her dump him for her career, any more than I want to see him dump her for Palpatine.

I don't anayone is saying that her love for Anakin is a flaw. But she can love him without givng up her principles. I seriously doubt that she "dumps" Anakin, and fighting against a dictatorship that goes against every principle you've ever been raised with is hardly the same thing as divorcing your husband because marriage doesn't suit your career goals. And by the time the split between Anakin and Padme comes, I'll bet that she's far more concerned about her life (and possibly that of her children) than she is about her career.

Maybe Anakin is too quick to trust Palpatine, but Anakin has not been the only one fooled by him...the Jedi are as well. I don't see Padme being smarter than the Jedi Council.

I think Padme may see Palpatine for what he is before Anakin does, perhaps even before the Council does. The Council has already admitted to being blinded by the Dark Side, and they had to be shown direct evidence of Dooku's treachery before they would believe it of a former Jedi, whereas Padme suspected from the very beginning that he was behind the attempts on her life.

 

Padme suspected Dooku but that was the only time she was a step ahead of the Council, and even then, Yoda suspected Palpatine long before she did.

I think having her realize Palpatine's treachery before the Jedi do would make her too much of a Mary Sue. It also wouldn't make sense given her own disdain for the Jedi and their Code and the fact that she has been completely duped by Palpatine for the past two films...I'm not expecting her to suddenly wise up. She should not be smarter than Yoda, or even Obi-Wan. She isn't Force-sensitive.

 

Padme suspected Dooku but that was the only time she was a step ahead of the Council, and even then, Yoda suspected Palpatine long before she did.

I'm confused ... He suspected Palpatine of being the Sith? Or did you mean Dooku?

I think having her realize Palpatine's treachery before the Jedi do would make her too much of a Mary Sue. It also wouldn't make sense given her own disdain for the Jedi and their Code and the fact that she has been completely duped by Palpatine for the past two films...I'm not expecting her to suddenly wise up. She should not be smarter than Yoda, or even Obi-Wan. She isn't Force-sensitive.

The Mary Sue thing's a good point. But the opposite could also be true - I'd hate to see her as the fool who's been duped three times, and fell in love with a fallen Jedi on top of it, Darth Vader no less. Maybe there'll be some middle ground, where she begins to realize that Palpatine might not be going down the right path, but doesn't realize exactly who he is or what he's planning to do.

And I think the fact that Padme isn't Force-sensitive might go in her favor. The Jedi seem to rely on the Force for their knowledge, and the dark side is obscuring that. Padme has only her own experience (and why not - her woman's intuition ) to go on; she doesn't use the Force and therefore isn't missing something when she should no longer trust it.

 

And I think the fact that Padme isn't Force-sensitive might go in her favor. The Jedi seem to rely on the Force for their knowledge, and the dark side is obscuring that. Padme has only her own experience (and why not - her woman's intuition ) to go on; she doesn't use the Force and therefore isn't missing something when she should no longer trust it.

Good point. And don't forget, Padme has already survived over a decade in politics, and idealist or not, that takes its own sort of pragmatic hardheadedness. I wouldn't discount the women's intuition angle, either. Padme's anything but stupid, and if she figures out Palpatine before Anakin and the Council, that doesn't make her a Mary Sue - it simply makes her insightful, a trait not limited to the Force-sensitive. I have a feeling that when Palpy reveals his true colors, Padme will take harder than any other character in the Saga. After all, she put the monster on the throne.

 

It wouldn't bother me if she had her doubts about Palpatine, maybe thought his way wasn't the best...but what would really make Padme look stupid is if she actually believes that the bureaucratic mess that is the Old Republic actually works. I wouldn't think much of her if she didn't think democracy itself worked...but the system in place is so mired in red tape that Palpatine is able to rise to power, even under the noses of the Jedi Council. TPM is proof of this, and AOTC is further proof. Padme said in TPM that she doesn't believe that the Republic functions and that the Jedi are "far too reckless". In spite of her argument with Anakin in the meadow in AOTC, I think she is willing to admit that there are flaws in the current system. So it comes down to, does she, like her husband, believe that Palpatine is the one to fix those flaws? Maybe...but maybe she is searching for yet another way. I don't see her and Anakin getting in any huge blow-up arguments about it though...there may be some disagreements ("Anakin, I'm not sure the Chancellor has the right idea"), but ultimately I think Padme will think that Anakin has the same goal she does...to improve the situation in the Republic and to end the Clone War.

I have a feeling that when Palpy reveals his true colors, Padme will take harder than any other character in the Saga. After all, she put the monster on the throne.

On that point I agree with you...assuming she lives long enough to see it happen.

 

Oh, I think Anakin and Padme have the same goal - to make the galaxy a better place - but their approaches are different. I think Padme sees corrupt individuals in a fundmentally sound system, whereas Anakin sees the system itself as corrupt. And they're both right - the Republic is crumbling under the weight of its bureaucracy, which is filled with corrupt individuals. Something has to give.

Going back to an earlier point about Padme suddenly wising up - she wouldn't be Padme if she didn't wise up. The woman is not stupid, and I think she may spend a lot of time beating herself up for putting Palpatine in power, and then fighting like hell to right her mistakes.

 

I still think suddenly wising up would make her a Mary Sue, particularly if she dies because of it. Where would her flaws be? (Besides those of you who don't like Anakin who think marrying him is a flaw.) Also, even if she were to go against Anakin for her ideals--which would be in character for her--he would never go against her. If given the choice between Palpatine and Padme, Anakin is going to choose Padme. The only way he will turn to the Dark Side is if she is dead. So the split over ideals couldn't happen.

Padme is smart...but so are the Jedi Council members and they remained clueless. Palpatine is the real genius here. That doesn't make those he fooled into idiots.

 

I don't think I understand your argument, Tracy? How does realizing (way too late, btw) that Palpatine is after absolute power make Padme a Mary Sue? I'm not talking about realizing that he's a Sith - she wouldn't have a clue about that - but realizing that he's been manipulating his way into absolute power for a decade or more. And that she helped put him on the final path.

 

Let me throw a grenade into the Padme discussion: I see little evidence that she is abrilliant, level headed politician with a clear grasp of what is going on in the Republic. Instead, I see an earnest, overwhelmingly good hearted young woman as blinder by her ideology as are the Jedi.

Despite her comments in TPM, she seems to really belive that the Republic, which appears effectively on life support and barely working, is a robust, vibrant enterprise. Why? Because of her laudable belief in representative government, she seems to either refuse to see or ignore (more likely) the problems. Even her reaction to the Separatist crisis is not pragmatic, but ideologically driven. It isn't that she's not intelligent, but it seems that here beliefs cloud her judgment. The need for a new order of some variety is obvious. The lack of the need for the Empire is also obvious.

As for she and Anakin, they are actually well matched in terms of personalities...The problem is that he will likely have an overwhelming sense of lack of appreciation whihc will drive him into the Political arms of Palpatine....

Ok, I'm done rambling...

 

It would only make her a Mary Sue if she realizes it before the Jedi do--and I had in mind realizing that he was a Sith--as I said, I don't think it's a big deal if she realizes that his way might not be the best way and has a minor disagreement with Anakin about it--I just don't see them getting into any knock-down drag-out fights about it, mainly because of Anakin's character, not Padme's--he would never go against her. It would also make her a Mary Sue if she dies for this realization--it would make her the martyred heroine of the saga and would make her seem flawless.

 

Still don't get it, Tracy. As to her flaws - I agree with Gunray's Lawyer that she is as much blinded by her ideology as the Jedi are by theirs. She's somehow managed to survive a decade in politics without becoming cynical or jaded about it (although I doubt she thinks it's all sunshine and roses). And her love for Anakin, while not a flaw, is definitely a weakness.

 

I concur with GunraysLawyer that Padmé is blinded by her own ideals (I'd consider her more an idealist than an ideologue). She believes in everyone's better nature, that everyone's problems can be solved if we all just talk about them. This is inference on my part, btw. You can consider it a form of naivete if you want, though by no means does it mean that she's dumb or stupid.

Padmé is going to come across as a martyr, but only because, I speculate, she was the only one who could have brought Anakin to his senses and because, I speculate, she will do anything to make sure her children survive. And I think in making an attempt to help Anakin and/or protect her children, she will end up losing her life. (Again, speculation.)

This does not make her a Mary Sue, it makes her a tragic figure. This girl who believed in the goodness of others and in the ability to right wrongs, who believed her love could save a very troubled young man, has her dreams shattered and loses everything. Then she's almost completely forgotten a generation later. It's horribly sad.

--MissPadme

 

It's way too sad for me to stomach. I'm going to the theater decked out in black and carrying a box of tissues just so I can deal with the lava duel and the helmeting of Vader.

And I think in making an attempt to help Anakin and/or protect her children, she will end up losing her life.

My personal belief is that Palpatine has her killed and then finds a way to blame it on the Jedi. He does so just before the twins are born, and the twins are extracted from her by C-section and separated. Once Obi-Wan finds out that Anakin survived, he of course does not tell him about his children, believing that he is evil beyond redemption.

Also just speculation. As I said, I haven't paid attention to spoilers in ages.

 

I just don't see why it was necessary for Obi-Wan to include Vader in the lie. Why does he need to make Luke hate Vader...which telling him that Vader killed his father was bound to do?



Obi-Wan doesn't want Luke to hate Vader; he's simply expressing his own hate to Vader. In a way, Obi-Wan views Vader as the murderer of Anakin, whom he thought of as a son. At least, that's what I think he's doing.

 

Ok, to add to the mix...

DarthLothi-- I thank you for your agreement, but I don't agree with you totally as to Padme's love for Anakin being a weakness.....

It is a weakness for the Senator Amidala, leader of the loyal opposition to the Chancellor for Life....It may be Padme Naberrie's greatest strength as a human being...

Oh and MissPadme, first, oh Pithy one, a tad verbose, weren't we? Seriously, I don't think that she is forgotten: four people remember her clearly.

1)Yoda: Probably thinks her foolish and that she aided in an unconscionable breech of the code;

2)Obi-Wan: He probably feels responsible for her death as he didn't destroy the relationship when he could have;

3)Palpatine: Probably remembers her as the greatest and most easily disposed of threat that he has faced;

4)Anakin Skywalker, the Lord Darth Vader, who probably just trys to forget. One gets the feeling that the pain at her death, whether he caused it or not, keeps him in his shackles. In fact, I couls postualte that the real epihany in ROTJ for him may be that he can't fix her death, he can only move on and do the right thing, as she would, regardless of the cost to himself. He likely dies redeemed, but with many regrets and a fair amount of emotional pain at his own failures....

 

Double post.

 

Lovely, lovely Padme discussion! Me join!

Darth_Tim:And what is wrong with loving politics? The Republic obviously badly needed more politicians like her. What's the point of having a "strong woman" character if all she really cares about is finding a man and then throwing her ideals out the window as soon as she does so?

If Padme threw her ideals out of the window because of Anakin - I will walk out of the theatre.
All ther same, I like to think of it not ending with Padme walking out on Anakin but him leaving her with no choice.



MIssPadme:This does not make her a Mary Sue, it makes her a tragic figure. This girl who believed in the goodness of others and in the ability to right wrongs, who believed her love could save a very troubled young man, has her dreams shattered and loses everything. Then she's almost completely forgotten a generation later. It's horribly sad.

On the same wavelength, we are. I've always seen Padme's story as a tragic one.

GunsrayLawyer:[Her love for Anakin] is a weakness for the Senator Amidala, leader of the loyal opposition to the Chancellor for Life....It may be Padme Naberrie's greatest strength as a human being...

My sentiments exactly!

four people remember her clearly.... You realy don't like Padme much, do you? Ever since she made Bale and Sabe her decoys in Winds? Admit it!


P.S. anakin-girl: Padme would never be a Mary Sue. She was a learning Queen in TPM who did the best for her people despite her inexperience, uncertainty and the fact that she was a pawn in a scheme that was bigger than her. That doesn't make her a perfect character. It makes her a strong character whch are two different things. Her love for Anakin is not a 'flaw'. Love can never be a flaw.

The fact that she was one step ahead of the Jedi with Dooku is simply because - apart from the clouding of the Dark Side - she didn't have any sentimental attachments to him (he their friend (Mace), one-time master, one-time apprentice(Yoda)) so she saw him more clearly as her enemy. Plus, she's got brains. They didn't make her Queen at 14 for her pretty face so I'd be sorry if she doesn't use them.

Gunsray_Lawyer:If Padme abandons her ideals and her faith in the Repubic what will that achieve? Che sera sera...

 

Dislike Padme? Moi?

No, actually, I don't. I just get annoyed with the idea that self-sacrifice (and the attendant collateral damage to others) is either necessary or good at all times.

Nor do I want this character to abandon her ideals, but I do want her to view the GFFA as it is, and not as she wants it to be...

Finally, what would she accomplish if she gave up her ideals...Depends on where it lead her...It could be nothing or it could have massively effected the plans of Palpatine....


As for the Winds of Change thing, no idealistic or ideological goal justifes deliberately placing one's child at risk or death or serious harm....

 

No, actually, I don't. I just get annoyed with the idea that self-sacrifice (and the attendant collateral damage to others) is either necessary or good at all times.
Well, if she did it just for the sake of matyrdom, then she's the the reverse egocentric. If she thought she could actually achieve something... then, she's a hero.

Nor do I want this character to abandon her ideals, but I do want her to view the GFFA as it is, and not as she wants it to be...
'I think the Republic needs you'
If every politician was a hard-headed cynic then where would that achieve? Her idealism is exactly what the Republic needs!

As for the Winds of Change thing, no idealistic or ideological goal justifes deliberately placing one's child at risk or death or serious harm....
Padme was not anticipating that their transport would be attacked. She just wanted a bit of space and time to run to Alderaan, destroy the government (see she doesn't always have her head in the clouds) and get back to Naboo before anyone was the wiser. She did not deliberately put Bale in danger and whether or not she was on that ship, Bale was in danger. And if Bale had not been on that ship, they would all have been in danger.

Dislike Padme? Moi?
HAH!

 

Ummm...my ears are burning...

Author's perspective on what Padme did in Winds of Change? I'd have to go along with leia_naberrie's view. Readers often have a much greater insight and perspective than the characters...