main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Artoo-Dion , Sep 14, 2017.

Tags:
  1. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    I think its in the prologue of the book or whatever. Doug Chiang is talking about it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    We also have to keep in mind that elsewhere it's been stated that Darth Talon evolved into the Jedi Killer who evolved into Kylo Ren. What's being described in the TLJ art book is at a point in the process where Disney and J.J. have entered the picture and the story has begun to diverge from Lucas's treatments. Lucas is still nominally involved as a "supervising producer" at this point but he is not running the show. People are assuming that any development that took place while Lucas was still attached must have happened with Lucas's blessing, but the reality is that this period is probably more accurately characterized by Lucas being increasingly sidelined and eventually quitting due to the project going in a direction that was incompatible with his wishes.

    I can believe that Lucas's treatments involved something bad happening with Luke's Jedi Academy, which forces Luke into exile. We don't know for sure if that was the case, but it seems plausible. What certainly does not seem to be the case is that the downfall of his academy was precipitated by an abortive act of attempted murder directed towards his own nephew. I also doubt that Luke's reassessment on the island would have involved him nihilistically forsaking life and blaming the Jedi way for his failures. Based on other things we know, it very well might have involved the seeking of a larger truth about the Force regarding the Whills and their role in the cosmological cycle. This would explain why Luke specifically retreats to a primordial Jedi Temple (whereas in TLJ that choice of abode is completely nonsensical given Luke's stated aims). If the destruction of his academy had to do with a mysterious new Sith-like threat which emerged despite his father's restoration of the balance thirty years before, the explanation that Luke's exile had to do with an examination into the Whills makes even more sense.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  3. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    I agree that the reasons why Luke went into exile were probably not what we actually got on-screen. The differences on the execution of those general concepts (Luke in exile, girl-in-Jedi-training, fall into the darkside of a son, the whills etc.) can help to change the perception of those concepts but since he decided to leave of his own accord, we'll probably never know how he would have portrayed those. However, he may be more inclined to tell us more about his original ideas once episode IX is released. Until then, we'll only just get small snippets here and there like we did with his conversation with James Cameron.
     
  4. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The point would be though if Lucas could and did do that and they couldn't then the easy answer was to use more of Lucas' story to achieve that.

    The problem I'd say is less to do with the new characters then what to do with Han because if Luke is around then Han is nothing in comparison. There is really one room for one protagonist older mentor. Two is surplus.

    Besides that not only could JJ and company not crack it neither did RJ as Luke did overshadow Rey. Finn and Poe were thrown to the side as well.

    This is a completely logical and progressive development that probably was the case in some regard. As it is in the ST there is no reason whatsoever for Luke to go to this first temple. It simply makes no sense to do so.

    I have no doubt they could that. So the fact that they didn't do that and didn't use Lucas' stories or even pull fundamental aspects of them to use (they only pulled surface aspects) tells me that the directive from up top was one of the oft-talked about soft reboot, reset, retread, rehash, re this and re that.

    I don't see any other credible explanation other than they did what was expected of them to do ie a modernized retelling of the OT story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  5. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    While I will never acknowledge any talent on Abrams' part, I will concede that this does make sense, based on the fact that they can't do anything that isn't tied to the OT in some manner - Rogue One, Solo, this new Mandalorian thing, the oft rumored Boba Fett movie, Rebels - which begs the question of why spending 4 billion dollars to knock off Star Wars when you could do it cheaper? They already have Guardians of the Galaxy. Any of the new things they've made is just a basic space movie with SW trappings. Was it solely to buy it so no one else could have it? It's looking more and more like you've hit on the answer.
     
  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, uh, about that....

    (Disney are a bunch of geniuses, for sure.)
     
    PendragonM likes this.
  7. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    GL rejected idea had involved teenager protagonists. In the ST adolescence is confined to the backstory: so far, irrelevant in the case of Rey and turbulent in the case of Ben.

    -Any idea about why that was rejected, box office calculations apart?
    -When he asked JJ about what happened to Vader's grandchildren, were those grandchildren teenagers originally?
    -Or only the female jedi one?
    -Was even the female jedi one of the grandchildren to start with?
     
  8. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    From what I've read (and forgive me, I don't have the cites), it was "oh it's Phantom Menace again" about the teenagers - which is really nuts considering, y'know, Hunger Games, Harry Potter and Twilight since then.

    One of the original strands that I read reports on, Han and Leia were still together, and had two kids - Force sensitive daughter and non Force sensitive son. But I'm not sure where I read that. And yes, the Jedi was one of the grandchildren, as I recall.
     
  9. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    Thanks, sir.

    First I hear about the non force sensitive grandchild. It sounds weird. Young Ben Solo carrying his father dice would be the closest thing we have.

    Hmm. So the Jedi Killer and this non force sensitive grandchild were merged at some point?

    More info, anyone?
     
  10. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Just a nitpick, but people often talk about this as something that's in TLJ and then blame Ryan Johnson for that, but that reason is already in TFA.

    Han: Ever since Luke disappeared, people have been looking for him.
    Rey: Why did he leave?
    Han: He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything.
    Rey: Do you know what happened to him?
    Han: A lot of rumors. Stories. People that knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.

    Anyway, as you were.





    I think we've talked about this in some other thread, but this seems right. The notion of Luke in exile in completely in line with Joseph Campbell's Hero's journey; it would correspond to the "Refusal of the Return" bit which would follow the events in the OT. So that would be a GL thing to do. But in the "Refusal of the Return," part of the monomyth, the hero, having found enlightenment in the other world, doesn't want to return because they're too enraptured in their newfound knowledge or something like that, not because they sense that they've somehow failed. So, assuming that Lucas would have stuck to the monomyth, Lucas would have written Luke as a hermit, but he would have written him exactly as you say: seeking of a larger truth about the Force regarding the Whills and their role in the cosmological cycle or somesuch.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  11. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I blame Rian for deciding that Han knew the whole reason for Luke’s disappearance. That Luke would feel responsible is a given, since he was Ben’s mentor, but you know, he could actually have “walked away from everything” and specifically looked for the first Jedi Temple in order to find a solution and rectify his mistake.
     
    Jedi_Fenrir767 likes this.
  12. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Well, that's what I thought he'd do but hey, it's more fun if he's a hermit trying to kill himself, right? So he can astral project back for five minutes or so and be "redeemed" - a sham like everything else in this trilogy so far. Because he "created Kylo Ren" despite the fact that Kylo was already dark by the time Luke went to see him but hey, let's not let that detail hang us up. It's all Luke's fault because the theme of this trilogy - per JJ - is "fixing your parents' mistakes."

    Johnson said it - and it's one of the few times he was right. You have to explain why Luke doesn't come save Han (and Hosnian Prime but hey, no one's cared about them since twenty seconds after it happened). So "cutting himself off from the Force" is your explanation. Otherwise, it's the end of the "How It Should Have Ended TFA"

    From the second Han said "people who knew him best" I knew we were in trouble - because who would know Luke best besides Han and Leia? Well, I guess no one because from what I've read about the books, he just hightails it out after Endor which, and I would say this if it's Lucas who came up with the idea, is garbage. It isn't who those people are at the end of ROTJ but that's no surprise considering Abrams didn't like ROTJ. This whole idea that Luke would just run around and decide that the Jedi weren't worth reviving because....well, how the hell does he find out anything? The records are gone. By the way Yoda's talking to him, it seems the Force Ghosts don't stay around to tell him anything. How does he even know that the Emperor is Darth Siddious? Why would he call him that to Rey, who wouldn't even know who the Emperor was? Oh, right, because they all have their copies of the OT and PT they've watched. I've actually read people defending this "meta" commentary on Star Wars by characters in the movie, like it's the best thing ever, so much post modern goodness.

    But as @Qui-Riv-Brid said above, we needed a reboot...
     
  13. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    Technically, Artoo himself has copies of the PT in his memory banks. Makes sense he showed them to the trio after all the revelations of the OT. (If the Force ghosts didn't tell Luke, I mean)
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
    jc1138 likes this.
  14. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    Another question: does anyone know when the KOR entered the picture? Not before the jedi killer+skylar-as-brother merge, I guess.

    And the clan? It seems to have been created even later.

    In any case, I take it that Lucas had nothing to do with it. Or did he?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  15. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    The concept art book, if I remember correctly, starts using the "Kylo" designation on artwork seeking to perfect his mask, and then starts compiling concepts into group shots that clearly become the Knights of Ren.

    The KOR definitely seems to be a late addition overall, though I don't think the clan was ever really more than cannon fodder for the flashback scene.
     
  16. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Pablo: "JJ and Larry created these guys [Knights of Ren]" "Larry and JJ named the character [Kylo Ren]"

    As for facts about the treatments:
    Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo
    @anthonytaylor_ @KenWannb @SWMegafan @ManaByte Some of it is in the Art of Book. Skyler. Thea. Darth Talon. Felucia.



    Pablo Hidalgo ‏@pablohidalgo
    Skyler and Kira (and Kira wasn't the first proposed name either; she had at least two others) became, after a fashion, Finn and Rey. The Jedi Killer morphed from Talon corrupting the son to becoming the son. Uber became Snoke. The starting point shifted. Yadda yada yada.



    Also, more recently,

    George Lucas: “Everybody hated it in [The] Phantom Menace [when] we started to talk about midi-chlorians. There’s a whole aspect to that movie that is about about symbiotic relationships. To make you look and see that we aren’t the boss. That there’s an ecosystem here.” “[The next three Star Wars films] were going to get into a microbiotic world. But there’s this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force.” “Back in the day, I used to say ultimately what this means is we were just cars, vehicles, for the Whills to travel around in…We’re vessels for them. And the conduit is the midi-chlorians. The midi-chlorians are the ones that communicate with the Whills. The Whills, in a general sense, they are the Force.”

    Though I really doubt the Whills were in the actual treatments.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  17. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Thanks George for inventing SW and your great stories/movies but also thanks for selling it before diving into the Whills and midichlorian stuff.
     
    godisawesome and oncafar like this.
  18. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    So Han didn’t know him best? Bro-in-law and bosom buddie?

    Love your posts, Lord Smurf. But the Whills predate the Force in the treatments. And they and the midichlorians are his ideas. So, hopefully Filoni, et al, will develop it further.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
    jedi-soon likes this.
  19. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    I don't believe in regrets, but it sure would've been great if George had done EpVII before selling, with the trilogy mapped out and him staying on as creative consultant. That would undoubtedly have brought us an interesting extension and conclusion to the Saga in the true spirit of Lucas.
     
  20. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015

    I love 7&8. But I wish he’d stayed on.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Count Yubnub and Lulu Mars like this.
  21. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    But please not in the ST. After TLJ when I now have to see Kylo telling Rey her midichlorian count in front of a Whill that got summoned via force skype I will fall from my chair.

    I'd rather prefer to see the latest (probably Mike Zeroh) leak which says that Kylo was "seduced" by Snoke and they were a love couple while Hux was jealous of Kylo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  22. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Are you replying to me? I didn't make that up, it's from TFA.

    Anyway, the event they're referring to took place 25 years after the OT events, so apparently by that time lives had changed and other people had come into Luke's life. Not really sure why one would assume they'd be "bosom buddies" by that point.
     
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  23. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    I know. That’s why I find the line interesting. Thanks for quoting it.
     
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  24. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    You heard it here first, folks. There was absolutely no reason for us to assume that Luke and Han would have remained close, lifelong friends. It's not as if Han is his brother-in-law alongside whom he went through some of the most meaningful and defining experiences of his life.
     
  25. Darth Thing

    Darth Thing Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Why? He adopted a new belief because the old Jedi dogma was flawed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018