main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Artoo-Dion , Sep 14, 2017.

Tags:
  1. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    So, are we talking box office or art appreciation? I get what you are saying*. Yet, the number one film of each Star Wars trilogy is the first film with a downward trend. Is this the best indicator of how much people/fans like or love the films?

    I mean, if this is the metric (box office) we are using... the communal response to films Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes Back were muted compared to the response to Phantom Menace and A New Hope. Looking at the adjusted for inflation numbers, Return of The Jedi made about 1/2 the box office of A New Hope. So, I'm not sure communal response and box office are a one to one.

    I'm also not sure how you are gauged "everyone being far less excited about the new character(s)". Are you still talking about box office or was their some kind of fan poll that you are referring to?

    *Can you send me a source for your data on the "older, white, male" info you have it. I have not heard this before.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2024
  2. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    That's incorrect. If we're talking 'box office', then one really needs to look at box office across the entirety of the respective trilogies, and not drop off between the 1st and 2nd film. The ST lost circa 50% of its audience by TROS. The OT and PT did not. There's a notable drop off after the first film in each of the trilogies, (which is to be expected given the hype associated with each of the first instalments etc. etc.), but then numbers recover. The box office for TROS strongly indicates that audiences were not engaged enough in the story/characters to see how it all resolved. Not only do the numbers reflect that, but if we were being truthful, I'd suggest most of us would believe the stories and characters were relatively unengaging (or at least inferior to what went before)... and I've heard many a fan of the ST admit to that, which reflects a wider audience maliasie to the ST generally (post TFA).
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2024
  3. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Since it’s late, here’s what I posted a long time ago in a personal message:

    “I’m giving you a link to a post by @MagnarTheGreat on another forum (which was my source), but he got his data sets from Deadline and others, and just organized them in a post friendly format:

    https://forums.superherohype.com/posts/37997684/

    Biggest takeaways and analyses I can see go like this:

    -Definite and somewhat severe drop off in female fan from TFA through to TROS on opening night: TFA they made up 42% of opening night audience, RO and TLJ they made up 41%, Solo it was 39%... then TROS they made up 32%.

    -Slighter decrease in African American demographic: TFA (12%), RO and TLJ (11%), a drop down to 8% for Solo, then TROS (10%).

    Note: since each Saga entry had a smaller opening night than the previous, that means that each demographic group was also numerically inferior to the previous one - so drops in percentages indicate an even more severe drop in viewers from particualrly demographics, while increases in percentages mean less drops.”

    I’d add these two other facts: we know that merchandise sales dropped significantly after TLJ, in spite of how demand for Rey and Finn had actually been underestimated previously during TFA’s release, and reiterate again that half the audience dropped away, period.

    Though I want to point this out on a less “execution”, more “conceptual” level:

    I bet a big part of the difference would be that TLJ de-emphasized and treated Rey’s story as “optional,” undermined and deflated Finn’s story, and exacerbated the lack of stakes and seriousness of the external conflict between the First Order and the Resistance by making the First Order Bad Saturday Morning Cartoon villains... when all that stuff was, ostensibly, supposed to be what compelled you to see all here films.

    Instead, TLJ put emphasis and ambition onto Luke’s story - then killed him off without making Rey his surrogate or real daughter - and Kylo - without actually expanding him, giving him an inherently shallow privilege to be a “main character,” and dooming him to death in the next film.

    I think people were still going to check TROS out if they wanted spectacle, and some Kylo fans were going to check it out with enthusiasm, but the characters who were supposed to get us cheering for their triumph were all “deflated” by TLJ, as was the main conflict... and the Skywalker family was doomed to a dud of an ending.

    ...And I think this was somewhat predictable when you recognize that LFL themselves weren’t interested in Rey, Finn, or Poe and only paying attention to the doomed Kylo.
     
  4. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Disney still not getting the ROI expected on SW is the definitive mark of the ST. Despite some pointing to the box office, it's clear the damage the ST caused throughout LFL. Galaxy Edge can't move from the ST era fast enough.
     
  5. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Interestingly, I might argue Galaxy's Edge might be more a sign of where one part of the Disney corporate empire - the theme park creators - might have miscommunicated with another part - LFL's main story creators.

    Galaxy's Edge being an ST-based park (at least at first) seems to be an obvious sign that the designers there expected LFL to be more focused on the ST as their true "flagship" enterprise across all levels - that LFL was "of course" going to make sure that above all else, the ST-derived properties were engaging enough to command pop culture the way the PT had.

    But I think the ST never really became LFL's top priority on an organizational level - in part because they were trying to do the whole "George Lucas wanted Skywalker Ranch to be a playground for directors, not producers" thing, leading to a much less cohesive ST to focus on in and of itself, but also maybe in part because most of LFL's rank and file creators were far more enthusiastic and exuberant about stuff more around getting a shot to redo OT material everyway they could, since most of them were older OT-fans who didn't really experience the PT's take-over the way the industry as a whole did.

    Guys like Pablo Hidalgo, for instance, seemed far more jacked about making OT-related spin-off movies, multiple OT-related comics, and cartoons base din the OT era - an understandable reaction, mind you, but not one focused on the ST as the tentpole. And to be honest, it sort of feels like the only thing they all agreed on about the ST and stuff between it and the OT was that they wanted Stormtroopers, Star Destroyers, and "underdog" Rebels rather than a real New Republic.

    ...But that also means not really caring about the ST's core characters and conflicts - which likely reflects how an theme park based around them can still be successful, but not at the rate expected given TFA's initial reception, since LFL themselves would likely have just doubled down on an OT-themed park if they could.
     
  6. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    It seems like one of the bigger mistakes was building an ST centric SW theme park. I get the roll playing idea they were after and that could have really worked for a very particular kind of visitor and fan.

    But who wants to visit Star Wars in the flesh and not run into Vader or classic troopers or clone troopers or droids or bounty hunters.

    Also the rather weirdness of the ST stormtroopers roaming the park and being casually in evil character but also sorta friendly is a weird play. One that I also constantly see companies, politicians, and sometimes even governments use the stormtrooper as something of a good guy symbol when they are evil.
     
    PendragonM and 2Cleva like this.
  7. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Original designs for GE was OT-themed/Tatooine, but TPTB at LFL during design process didn't support that.

    https://insidethemagic.net/2020/04/original-star-wars-land-theme-dan-cockerell-ba1/

    I disagree with your conclusions about the ST not being LFL top priority at org level when it was happening. When the President of the studio is influencing park design and doing a movie explanation tour with the director after a movie release (as KK and RJ did) - that shows a heavy priority. People like Iger and KK have backed away from the decisions they originally made but they were all-in on ST at first.

    As far as the rank and file creators - the ones already in house were obviously more into the interconnectedness of SW story than the new people in the sandbox. The stories that came out around TLJ/Solo reflect only then did TPTB at LFL start to get how important that connection was.

    If the ST was a success, even outside of what GL wanted, it would have carried the parks/merch/revenue enough to "stories ahead of us" but TPTB didn't know how to handle SW. The result is its back to the past - I do chuckle at how GL keeps coming more to the forefront with Filoni.

    With recent change to another attraction, a GE reboot to a Mandalorian/Ahsoka/post-ROTJ era seems inevitable around The Mandalorian and Grogu release.

    https://www.orlandosentinel.com/202...ios-star-tours-new-scenes-mandalorian-ahsoka/

    Contrast in immersive feel between Galaxy Edge vs what Universal did with Harry Potter is notable. GE missed the mark.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2024
    Nobody145, PendragonM and BlackRanger like this.
  8. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Imagine if Harry Potter world was just Voldemort and his Death Eaters running around the park, acting kind of friendly. and playfully out of character, but also 'fake-mean' and that was basically it. And Harry, and crew, and Dumbledore, and Hogwarts was no where to be found, and instead it was some new location created just for the park.

    You can bet fans would be less then excited.

    LFL basically created Star Wars Mall, and put FO troopers in as Mall Cops.

    I do think the ST was a focused priority for LFL. The only problem was, was that there was nothing to focus on in the ST to expand on.
     
  9. UnlimitedSarcasm

    UnlimitedSarcasm Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2021
    Yeah before the acquisition, the original SW design for the parks was going to be OT based (Tatooine/Endor, etc), and folding in their Star Tours stuff. After the acquisition they wanted to put more focus on their trilogy. And even more stupidly, they didn't even try and recreate something from the ST films. Instead they made up a new location which they had in their new Thrawn book, and a reference in Solo. Which going back to how stupid this was and using Harry Potter as a contrast, it would be like not having Diagon Alley, something that filmgoers can immediately recognize, and want to explore for themselves, instead it was all built around some generic magic place in France Fleur Delacour might have visited. And then only just referencing it, in The Cursed Child Broadway show.

    And of course there was the needlessly inflicted, but totally predictable crash and burn of the very expensive Galactic Starcruiser. All featuring ST characters/storyline references. Which I do not understand the thinking of doing that. Because by this time the first blush of TFA's roaring success, and the unexpected success of RO, was over. TLJ had killed the brand merch-wise, and TRO didn't help. So what other than sunk cost fallacy, made them think it would be a good idea? Which is exactly what I see them doing with the shows after Mando S2 (aside from OT-tied Andor...for now). Trying to rehabilitate/save the ST.

    Though I think their best bet would have been cutting their losses after TROS, where the writing was on the wall with its audience drop, and continued merch. sales drought. They coulda/shoulda used Mando S2 and/or Ahsoka to make a new timeline that detoured the ST.

    Like male a Luke's New Jedi Order...one that isn't doomed, so that every character in it isn't going to die. One that Grogu could have gone to for a substantial time, and interact with other students (who weren't all going to die later). Show that in Mando S3. Not that crap they did in TBoBF. Then maybe have Ahsoka WBW to make it officially the new (better) timeline. Show this New Jedi Order where at the very least, Grogu can visit/train with Luke, and the other Jedi. from time to time, even if most of his time would be with Din doing adventures.

    I've always said Disney threw money away by not making this like Harry Potter and the wands. Have a whole bunch of Younglings, and finding which colour lightsaber they're going to be, and what House, I mean kind of Jedi they'll be. There is a cartoon series on Disney plus with all these cute Jedi younglings they have to put in the High Republic Era, so that they're aren't all doomed to immediately die. And it went nowhere, because people don't care about the High Republic era. Whereas if they had the same cartoon series, but with Grogu doing adventures with fellow Jedi younglings, taking place during his time with Luke's New Jedi Order (one where not everyone is doomed to die) I think it would have landed better.

    So many bad decisions that Disney keeps on making with LFL. And it's biting them on the financial ass.
     
  10. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I really think it should have just been 'generic' star wars land. PT, OT, ST, all together. Hell, throw in some stuff from the books too. Lucas had it right. There should have been different 'worlds'. Coruscant. Tatooine. Bespin. Endor. Death Star. With "space" shuttles that could hyperspace you between each of the worlds.

    They over-estimated just how many people wanted to LARP as Star Wars characters, roaming around the park in a ST era storyline, or pay $4000 for essentially a lame SW hotel panic room.

    And now if they want to reskin the park to evolve past the ST its gonna cost another fortune.
     
  11. Artorian_Stormtrooper

    Artorian_Stormtrooper Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 1, 2019
    It’s even worse when you recognize the fact that the ST all takes place within a year and they built this theme park based on this tiny gap of time between two terrible films.

    Though, I can’t say I’m surprised. They don’t properly honor and respect their heroes. They demand that you like whatever they shovel out just because they stick “Star Wars” onto it.
     
  12. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Wonder what they’ll do when the new films come out. Which take place in various time periods with no relation to FO or the ST.,

    Do they reskin? Or … just keep it as is.
     
    PendragonM likes this.
  13. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    They'll do it Lego style! Come to the park and build your own world! For just two hundred dollars, you'll get to spend a day doing our work for us [face_party]
     
  14. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Can’t wait for sequel trilogy nostalgia to set in. Counting down like…..
     
    jaimestarr likes this.
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I remember visiting Star Tours a couple of times in the late 90s/early 00s. I had a “My other vehicle is an X-Wing” bumper sticker on my car for awhile. I was excited about Galaxy’s Edge when I first heard about it but the premise of it ended up being pretty disappointing. The Harry Potter comparison is a good one. I love that series but Cursed Child was horrible, and it would have been a special level of stupid to create a theme park around Cursed Child for the purpose of promoting it, as opposed to what Universal actually did with Wizarding World, which is amazing.

    I didn’t even like the new Holiday Special because it was so obviously a promo for that overpriced Star Wars hotel they have. (Terrifying Tales was great though.)

    As far as ST nostalgia—if the upcoming Rey film features her romancing Zombie Kylo and having his babies, and starting a female-only New Jedi Order in which the padawans are taught that it is their duty to romance melodramatic Sith-Wannabes to reform them (and the cherry on top could be that the reason Anakin became Vader was all Padme’s fault, she should have gone along with his Empire)—TROS would look better by comparison because Kylo died, and TLJ would look better by comparison because Rey left Kylo on the ship.

    TV content is still far better though, especially since Bad Batch brought Ventress back (so far without her slobbering all over Quinlan Vos).
     
  16. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    See you in 20 to never years. lol.
     
  17. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I’m waiting for it as well... but as a Finn fan, hoping that TFA nostalgia overwhelms and buries TLJ rather than being overwhelmed and buried by TLJ nostalgia, and somewhat curious what shape TROS nostalgia might take at all.

    And as @anakinfansince1983 sort of of points out, a lot of that is going to come down to the Rey film sort of clarifying what traits and elements of the ST are supposed to actually be the core of the surviving characters - which really could go anywhere from a wasteful, toxic retroactive attempt to defend and reinforce TLJ to a resurrection of the TFA stuff that engaged with far more people, and could also see some initially divisive elements reimagined in total new forms, given how chaotic and oppositional-to-itself the ST was.

    TLJ nostalgia is just bad for Rey and Finn, for instance, but probably the main thing Ben Solo and Sad!Luke fans wants to revisit... though I’d argue Sad!Luke has already been de facto buried by how much less divisive and much more positive his Mandalorian appearance was. Rey and Finn fans need TFA’s elements enhanced for nostalgic reasons, and honestly both this characters and the franchise would be better of TFA nostalgia includes “...Kylo’s a supporting character, not a major one that needs exploration.”

    Meanwhile, someone like Rose could potentially be rehabilitated into a completely successful character, rather than a weird combination of a charismatic and skilled actress with a role designed to seemingly sabotage her in different ways in two films.

    LFL, I’d have to say, seems like they think the stuff people “should” be interested in is the New Republic failing (something that Filoni seems especially convinced is a good idea), Palpatine’s resurrection being set-up, and maybe still have some Ben Solo obsession they think others should share (though I’m inclined to think that the lack of movement on that front might imply they’ve become aware of the inherent problems with him, since they never thought through what his childhood would have to be published as.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2024
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  18. ThereseAn'ya1994

    ThereseAn'ya1994 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2023
    I actually agree with this. They tried to feed too much from real life in2 the ST. Nobody remembers the 1980s Expanded Universe cause it had too much from the real world in it. Putting timely things in there is O.K. I believe that JJ shoulda had some help from different writers for Rise of Skywalker. Force Awakens is a great watch to this day. This made the ST such a weird trip.

    My take is that there wasn't anything wrong with the ST being an OT ripoff in a way. It was an update. It would have been cool. I hated the screenwriters ****ing up the characters tho.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2024
  19. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    The only way the ST experiences a 'nostalgia' upswing, IMO, is if the new films are even worse/more polarising than the sequels... and if they are, no one wins...
     
  20. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    There is TFA nostalgia?
     
    Darth PJ likes this.
  21. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I think there's probably nostalgia for that 'buzz' of excitement for a new Star Wars film... where anything and everything is possible. For the briefest moment, even I experienced that before TFA... before the dark times...
     
  22. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    or when the kids in 2015/2017/2019 are adults and TFA is celebrating its 25th anniversary.

    as for dark times — that was post ROTJ and pre-Zahn for me.
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, we’ve had *that* argument here a few times, and I put a stop to the most recent one because it was less about whether some Gen-Alpha kids will decide they like the ST as adults/remember the Kylo lunchbox they had in first grade, and more about trying to silence people who post here currently. Then there have been a few other such arguments that were more about wanting the theater OT generation to die.

    If the ST was geared primarily at those who were not introduced to the OT and PT first, and/or made with the idea that viewers would *avoid* seeing the OT first, that is a big part of the problem there. And if TLJ in particular was designed in part to *scold* the OT generation for viewing Luke, Han and Leia as heroes, that is also a problem.
     
  24. Jedi Master Frizzy

    Jedi Master Frizzy Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2018
    I dont comment here mutch anymore as i take break from The Sequel discourse. Gotten heavy into in past. I think there will be nostalgia for the movies when kids watched them grow up. TROS be the least liked of them like ROTJ and TPM was of their Trilogies. TFA and TLJ are the Sequels at their best. I find myself loving them still and more. Returning to fascism in Sequels is even more relevant since. History class been done about TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2024
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Star Wars has plenty of lessons in all trilogies about how fascism happens. Where TLJ went wrong is in pretending that fascists deserve sympathy for going fascist if a previous hero hurts their feelings.