ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

I just had an entertaining crisis to see if plague (Darth Plagueis) and plagiarism are related.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/plague
https://www.etymonline.com/word/plagiarism
It's inconclusive. They go back to the two *apparently unrelated variants of Indo European root stem, "plak-".

 

Interesting. According to Zeroh Plagueis will come back in IX—he was Snoke all along. Or something like that.


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I will have to check this guy out. Very good, thank you for that tip.
Now that I think of it, with respect to Luke, Gandalf the Gray came back as Gandalf the White. There were zero persons that said, Hey wait a minute. And as many fall over themselves to remind the more sci-fi leaning, Star Wars is fantasy first and foremost, built upon that chassis, before it has any science fiction fenders, quarter panels, and tail lights.

 

Surely the only time Abrams would be mentioned with Goddard or Truffaut, except in a list of “male directors” ;-)

Besides, stealing from many isn’t plagiarism - it’s art, is I think how the quote goes...in any case, Lucas took from many to make something new whereas JJ took from one to make the same thing again.

Again, mileage varies. I still think that Luke, Han and Leia were trashed, and that their victories being taken from them, their love for each other tossed on an ash heap and them never being reunited was a terrible thing and a completely unforced error of LFL’s part. I think LFL wouldn’t be looking at the losses on Solo et al without these actions.

So yes @DarthPhilosopher I will always find it difficult to understand why fans are happy with this. I strive to take into account other people’s viewpoints but, like finding reasons to redeem Kylo Ren, I don’t get it and never will. I will never think any of that was good or right, no matter if Lucas himself had done it. I realize mileage varies but I can’t make this trip. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Ok, I see Mike Zeroh is a click farm. So I take that polite ribbing in spirit. I never heard of him.

 

Abrams didn’t remake ANH. The Republic weren't in charge; Luke wasn’t, pardon the pun, Solo; the Big 3 united and none of them died; the Jedi Master wasn’t discovered until the end; the Jedi Master was killed by the #2 Baddy; the #2 Baddy never unmasked; we never saw the Emperor; Luke didn’t take on the #2 Baddy and defeat him.

You had 0 knowledge of the 0h?

 

I’d sit here and point out all the similarities but sure, Abrams came up with an entirely new story that just happened to have a desert planet, a villain in black who murders the oldest male lead in act 3, a Death Star, an escape from same, X wings, TIE fighters, and so on and so forth. You forgot to add it’s like poetry, it rhymes.

 

You forgot to add TPM had Tatooine, a villain in black who murders the oldest male lead in act 3, a space fortress whose destruction by a Skywalker whose act saves the day, affecting both his and the GFFA’s future, and a celebration at the end.

How much does ROTJ mirror ANH? It’s almost identical to yours and my descriptions of TFA. A villain in black does kill the oldest male lead in Act 3, albeit that status for Anakin lasting only a few minutes at the end. Not exactly the same. These are off rhymes, not perfect rhymes.


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By all means, let’s do the same thing a third time. But this time, it’s not a contrast between father and son, it’s Rey Random. So why is it the same? For what reason? Because the prequels scared the audience and we have to have a reboot?

Also, the plot of ANH revolves around the Death Star. TFA suddenly has a Death Star mid act 2 when the whole plot is searching for Luke - why?

But, as we say in X-Files fandom, sure, fine, whatever.

 

Love the X-Files.

I never said the same. And you mentioned similarities before. I did say off rhymes, not perfect rhymes. Or themes and variations as music influenced Lucas.

 

Let's not forget the plot device of a droid carrying important plans and information that is literally what drives the movie forward. And the protagonist being an ordinary person on a desert planet that happens to become part of something much greater (aka the fight against the Empire/FO) out of nowhere.

Similarities and common themes between the SW movies are very common, but the ones between ANH and TFA are very specific and down to great detail. They are definitely the two most similar SW movies in terms of plot and themes, and 3 years later I still don't understand why they had to have another planet killer superweapon. That was really bad.

 

Absolutely. It is uncanny. TFA however lacks the magic of ANH because the entire basis/emotional weight and deeper meaning of ANH are not present. So I suppose actually despite the remarkable similarities of the story, it's not the same story. Or perhaps ANH is simply a better version of TFA. In an age where Force powers are "earned" by closing one's eyes and saying "The Force?" versus training to achieve one's destiny, I suppose the verdict during the Development of the Sequel Trilogy is that ANH is unnecessarily complicated and the Force far too complicated, the story far too logical and the motivations of characters takes up far too much time. Family saga? A flowing plot. These are the things of the past. Far better to focus on Kanji club, introduce a super weapon as an addition to the plot, rather than the basis of the plot, and mix things up by not explaining anything. Totally makes sense. And to this, we shall give thunderous applause!

Exactly! That's what I'm saying below also.

It's a shame. The entire context, story, backdrop (backstory and political exposition), plot arc, saga arc are not present. Instead the familiar props/elements are inserted artificially to resemble ANH without any of the deeper meaning. It's all style, no substance. And in its development, there is no character purpose, motivation or role in a greater story. And the grandeur and elegance of a space opera seems lost. Rather than developing a natural continuation to a greater story, it's almost like instead a parody, or perversion of what we have just seen is showcased before us.

ANH - You're taking your first steps in a much larger world, The Force will be with you...Always. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away. The Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the... Empire.
I have no idea how we made it past that patrol, I thought we were done for. The Force has a powerful affect on the weak minded.

TFA - It's another Death Star. Stop holding my hand! Do you have a boyfriend...a cute boyfriend? It's the Resistance... (to what?) The Force? (Never heard of it, but going to start using it straight away) You will remove these restraints and leave the cell door open (without an explanation of how you know what a mind trick is)

As far as I could tell, TPM had a different story. The control ship was not a super weapon. The villain was not part of an intergalactic Empire, but a secretive elusive organisation long thought vanquished and extinct. The galaxy was an Old Republic with an entire Order of thousands of Jedi Knights, rather than the leftover remnants in a galaxy where their flame had died out.

I suppose one thing TPM does that ANH does is actually explain the plot, backstory and spacio-political backdrop to events. Since TFA didn't, it's definitely supremely different there. I don't recall seeing a pod race, battle droids, a planet which is an entire city etc in ANH. Not sure I recall seeing a cantina, bounty hunters, the Millennium Falcon, TIE fighters, X-wings, etc in TPM either.

As for ROTJ, not sure how that mirrors ANH. Unlike TFA, the presence of a second Death Star II is part of the plot. To lure the Rebel Alliance into "The Trap" that Ackbar so famously stated. To see "the end of your insignificant Rebellion" as the Emperor haughtily expressed to Luke, the last of the Jedi Knights. And for the Rebels, it was not simply a case of destroying the Death Star, as in ANH, but the fact that "the Emperor himself is personally overseeing" its construction, presenting a target of opportunity.

The fact that ANH also made the Death Star I the plot point, gave us a connection to Alderaan through hearing of it, feeling for the character Princess Leia from the start, making it the initial destination of our heroes, gave weight to the events unfolding. With TFA, the map to Luke Skywalker is the focus. Then we take a detour to a weapon we have never heard about, with abilities we know nothing about, to destroy a planet we know nothing about and have never seen, to destroy the capital of a governing entity we have never seen. Then we take a sidetrack from the plot to find Luke, to take on this "super weapon" which in an almost ironic way a Rebel (or is it Resistance?) officer literally says at their conference, "It's another Death Star." There is a plot purpose in TPM, ANH and ROTJ and not in TFA. So in that sense, yes there aren't similarities at all. Just used the same visuals, without any of the context or deeper meaning.

Oh and the family saga element, from the Father/Grandfather to the Son, Daughter/Father/Mother, Aunt to the Grandchildren/Children and their Friends - all of that is lost so that we can witness the random characters in all their glory in a family saga. It's a bit like seeing a new random character in the final chapter of Harry Potter, or a new character taking all the credit in the final instalment of Indiana Jones.

 

Thank you for pointing out the differences between these 4 films. My contention is the claim that TFA is too much like ANH, which it isn’t. How the similarities and differences function is why those whom I discussing this with find TFA to be unsuccessful and you all give good reasons.

 

The term "too much" is subjective. For you it might not be too much. For me, TFA is as similar to ANH as it could have been, without being sued for plagiarism. I would say that's too much.

It's like the infamous story of Ice Ice Baby by Vanilla Ice avoiding a copyright infringement violation, after being compared to Under Pressure by Queen. The lawsuit didn't happen, but anyone who doesn't sing Under Pressure when they hear Ice Ice Baby playing, is just tone deaf.

 

Yeah, how much is too much? Early Allen and DePalma—directly quoting Potemkin, for example. Or Mel Brooks.

SKB I liked despite its being mobile, a reservation I had. It stands to reason the FO would try to get make a new improved DS. I just wish the Sledgehammer hadn’t been discarded as it maybe would have made things grayer as the Resistance would have had their own WMD. That said, the destruction of SKB was too much like the ANH for me, no Falcon helping out notwithstanding.

I don’t mind TFA resembling ANH. With the events of the OT and the inclusion of the Big 3, tonal continuity makes sense to me. Yeah, we could have had more original ship designs, but proto Star Destroyers appear in AOTC, so it doesn’t bother me we have bigger, badder SDs in the ST, not to mention Tie Fighters and X-Wings.

And it’s not like the NR would be all that interested in coming up with the baddest new ships—unnecessary as they’re more interested in rebuilding the GFFA peacefully, democratically, commercially. The FO had to build upon what they had given their limited resources compared to the Empire.

To what degree it’s plagiarism? I don’t see any real copy and paste, but allusions. But as you pointed out, it’s subjective. I definitely hear David Gilmour from Eclipse in The Phantom of the Opera theme.

 

You really wanted Leia to have her own planet killer after Alderaan?

 

Sorry, Warhammer. And I guess it’s not a WMD so much as a super weapon.

 

I don't agree with the last bit about TLJ's treatment of TESB/RotJ story beats and iconography (I think it works both internally and especially in regards to how it sets up IX with a status quo and dynamics that we haven't quite dealt with before), but everything you said above regarding TFA is pretty much spot-on. Great post.

 

Thunderous applause? Isn’t that how liberty dies? Or just unrealistic expectations?

 

To me the biggest similarities between TFA and ANH are in the production design. There is just way too much overlap there and it drives a message that “this is ANH” all over again.

 

He did but in a far more obvious and direct way than Lucas himself did with TESB, ROTJ, TPM, AOTC and ROTS.

"Remaking" the same movie over and over again is the Star Wars way. TFA did it as did TLJ. That isn't the real issue. The issue is the ways and means of the remake.

The key term is remake. Remake as in make new again and transforming into it's own thing as opposed to the retread version of a remake which is where TFA's ambitions were as the requel: "a movie that's both a reboot and a sequel, blending old with new in an effort to extend the life of a franchise and, in the best cases, reinvent it for a "universe" of follow-up movies."

TFA did it in such an obvious and overt way as pointed out over and over again:





Video after video could be shown here. I forget which one it was but it calculated that 89% of TFA's plot points came from ANH while the other 11% came from TESB and ROTJ. Never mind all the similarities along the way to the prequels as well which were especially evident in TLJ.

Whereas Lucas did it with his mirroring and rhyming in ways that most often either weren't noticeable at all the first or 50th time you saw them and only are so evident now after decades of study of the story (plus Lucas himself talking about the method). This methodology of his runs through all the movies in so many ways that we are still discovering in the depths of character, story, situations, dialogue, design and all sorts of details.

The more obvious elements that were identified early just seem to be more a basic broadstroke of the kind of things that happen in the Star Wars universe.

TPM was obviously a "remake" of ANH or rather another version from the same original source material that Lucas had originally assembled
for The Star Wars.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with VII being a remake. That is perfectly fine and really the way anyone doing it should have approached it because that is the precedent set with the previous 5 movies after ANH. At issue is the kind of remake whereby it's done in such direct reference to the pre-existing movie and invites the audience to watch along that way.

Let an audience watch ANH, TFA and then ROTS they ask them which of the former two is a remake. The answer would be evident. Yet ROTS is also a remake but it takes thing changes them around with new characters, situations, designs and story contexts as well as flowing into the movie that it is a prequel to. TFA is supposed to be a sequel but evidently isn't. For all the time that passes between Lucas movies and all the events that happen they still effectively pick up from where the other one has left off even if there are 10 or 20 years between them.

Plotwise TFA is better sequel to ROTS then it is ROTJ because that is essentially what they were going for. An actual ROTJ sequel would be entirely different while at the same time also remaking ANH.

 

To me it feels like AOTC and ROTS have the most unique story structure of any of the films, and borrow less from the others. Whereas TFA, TLJ, ROTJ and TPM (in that order, I would argue) feel like less unique story structures.

I don’t judge AND or TESB because those were largely original story structures when first conceived and released.