ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

There have been infinite people that have changed their minds about the PT.

 

I think people overestimate peoples loyalty to the OT trio....At lest among younger audiences.

 

How do you know this hyperbole is true?

 

I have come across people whose opinions of the PT have changed over the years. I just have doubts that the number is "infinite". My opinion of the PT has not changed in 14 to 20 years. I still love it.

 

This is true for me. I was born in 1997 so I was 8 when ROTS arrived on DVD. Dont get me wrong, I like Luke, Han, and Leia, but SW was Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme for most of my childhood. Hell, the PT for us was called the "New Star Wars" while the OT was the "Old Star Wars." I dont think I even knew the PT was called "The Prequels" until I was much older.

 

I'm sure there are some who have changed, but I don't think the shift in general opinion is due to he fact many have changed their minds - there are just new opinions out there now.

 

I agree with this. Most of the PT love comes from the generation that grew up with it. I think however there is more appreciation for the PT then there was a few years ago, but I think there's a difference in how people who love the PT talk about the films compared to those who "changed their mind."

 

Agreed, for me I grew up mostly seeing the battle between the Clones and the Battledroids, because there was SO MUCH of it, plus TCW, so for me the Battledroids were my stormtroopers and the Clones my good guys.

 

I guess I should have said infinitely more than what you claim. I know at least 1 person (in fact I know about 4-5) that used to hate the prequel trilogy, then saw the sequels, went back to watch the prequels again, admitted they hadn't really paid attention to the "meat" in those movies and just went with what the media said, and now they say they're pretty good movies storywise. So that's infinite times more than "no people have changed their minds, it's just new opinions being added to the mix".

 

I think it might be a mix of both to be perfectly honest

1. The PT generation has grown up and is becoming the dominant voice
2. The ST has changed some peoples minds, perhaps they miss George or appreciate things the PT was trying to do that the ST didn't

and 3. The people who hate for hate's sake have moved on to hating the ST and once that's done they'll move on to another thing whatever that is.

So its many factors

 

When did I claim that there are no people who have changed their minds? I said that there wasn't relatively many, although I'm sure there are some. So, yeah, strawman.

 

I mean even some famous you tube critics changed their mind about PT.

 

Okay? The fact that some people have changed there mind doesn't really impact my argument. I don't really think that all that many people (relatively) who had thought-out opinions on the PT have changed their mind. I'm sure you could find a few people whose opinions endeavour to aline with popular opinion who have now changed their opinion because the prevailing opinion has changed somewhat (which I'm guessing are those YouTubers that you reference). The underlying change however, in my opinion, is generational.

 

Strawman and Hyperbole seem to be your two favorite words, when you somehow need to contradict someone else's opinion, for no real reason, and without real evidence that contradict what I said. That's why I said "infinite" to begin with, so that we skip the part where you try to invalidate my opinion. I embrace hyperbole, if it's yet again an accusation of some sort coming from you.

However, when it comes to the essence.... your opinion is not reality. It's just your opinion. I happen to think there is a significantly large sample of people that see the prequels in a much better light now, and that have shifted towards more favorable reviews. This is what both my personal experience and the social media experience tell me. I have even seen multiple people apologizing to George Lucas for being so negative towards the prequels, and admitting that now they get it better. This works for me. I don't really care to convince anyone else about what I clearly see and read with my eyes, and I most certainly don't care to read how I shouldn't have that opinion, just because someone has a different opinion and is very adamant that they know better.

 

@DarthFixxxer

The problem with these discussions between yourself and I seem to stem from the fact that every time I voice a contrary opinion you take it personally, and rather than just respectfully disagree you respond with hyperbole and strawman arguments. Disagreements which can only be supported by subjective individual perception is natural and isn't an a front to you personally. I can't back up my argument with hard data. I simply stated my contrary perception. Likewise you can only support your arguments with anecdotal evidence. That's fine. I'm not expecting you to suddenly agree with me because I disagree.

As for your use of hyperbole and strawman arguments - surely you are aware of this, because not only have I pointed it out, but others have. The 'infinite' line was hyperbole. The argument that I said that there were no people who had changed their minds and therefore your anecdotal evidence defeats the argument is clearly a strawman- all you have to do is reread what I said to know that. I don't know why it seems to be beyond you to acknowledge that you do this sometimes - I know that I've had problem posting styles in the past and I've actively worked to move past them and improve.

Even as someone who defends the PT (mostly TPM and ROTS) I do still acknowledge that there is still a lot of valid criticism out there, just like I acknowledge with the ST. I still think that a lot of people hold these opinions.

 

Well I can give an example from Star Trek.
DS9 got a lot of flak early on from Trek fans.
"Oh it is set on a space-station, not a ship out exploring. This isn't Star Trek!"
Later when DS9 had "darker" stories and showed morally grey characters and even some of the main characters doing dubious things.
Then it got a lot more flak because now "It is dis-respecting the Roddenberry ideal." and "People in Star Fleet would never act this way!"
So to a fair few of Trek fans, DS9 wasn't Star Trek and it openly violated what Roddenberry wanted.

But in later years, DS9 grew more well-liked and people started to like the risks it took, that it went outside of the norm from time to time.
And that it had more continuity and story-archs. That is common now but wasn't back then.

Same with Picard, at first the fans of the OS dismissed him and said "He is nothing compared to Kirk."
Later the character grew more popular and well liked.
And I think it helped that he grew less stiff and was given more to do as a character and that they let Patrik Stewart act more.

Then again you have ST 5, which was a bomb back then and still isn't very well liked and is viewed as "Shatner's vanity project"
Or "Generations" which killed Kirk in a less than great way and fans hasn't really forgiven that film.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface.

 

^^
So, give it time... I think a lot of people that hated the PT have come around to appreciating the good in them. I think it's hard to imagine people that accused Lucas of killing their childhood actually deciding the PT is good, but they don't actively discount it as part of the story.

Doesn't mean they get easier to watch or less cringey...Sam Jackson still comes across as a bad actor which is a real feat of directing. Ultimately, there's not much to be emulated there, but people stop actively hating and discounting the value to the saga.

We'll see how the ST fares, but I'd say it will do better than the PT ever could...just give it enough time.

 

The PT was a series of films with (arguably) some superficial defects that made it hard for some people to appreciate the vast depth lying underneath. Even from an objective standpoint I think it has to be admitted that there's a lot going on in the prequels that virtually no one at the time bothered to examine. The ST (so far) has been a series of films that most people seem to acknowledge are technically well-made--but they have virtually nothing to offer beyond their superficial qualities. Just my perspective, but I just don't see a similar creative re-evaluation happening for that reason. There's just nothing really to discover or re-evaluate. Like them or hate them, I think everyone's already seen everything they're ever going to see. The most I expect to happen is that, as time passes and emotions die down, TLJ will cease to be a movie a good portion of the fanbase virulently hates and become a movie that's merely forgettable. That's my prediction, take it or leave it.

And this goes straight to the development of the ST. There was no grand vision here straining to be unleashed on the world. At the most, it was a story thrown together at the last minute by J.J. Abrams, whose second act was then put through a funhouse mirror by a storyteller from a warring faction within Lucasfilm which seemed to have some sort of axe to grind against...something. Now we're getting the third act from Abrams which, fairly predictably, all indications point to not having all that much to do with the second act. This just isn't how enduring, classic stories for the ages get made. I mean, look, J.J. Abrams isn't a cinematic visionary even on his best day and under the best working conditions. And this working situation hasn't exactly been the best of anything.

 

I don't think I can agree with that conclusion. I think the PT not living up to the anticipation of many fans damaged the franchise 15 to 20 years ago. And I'm more inclined to blame the fans and not the movies. As much as I dislike the ST, I believe I fan reaction that led to the same thing in recent years.

I can honestly say the same about the OT. There are some aspects of that trilogy that I do not admire, if I must be brutally frank. I can say the same about the PT. But despite their defects, I still managed to enjoy and appreciate both trilogies.

 

I just want to touch again on this notion that TLJ is "subversive." One of the reasons you know that's utterly, hilariously inaccurate is because TLJ was almost universally adored by the corporate media whose whole purpose is to reinforce the status quo as favored by the increasingly small number of oligarchs who own and profit off it. At the same time, all the critics of the film were and are being derided as part of some sinister, vulgar, smelly, lunatic fringe possessed of diseased livers and motivated by scary political ideologies. When a truly subversive piece of art comes out this isn't usually how it goes. It's usually the other way around.

You can argue that TLJ is a good movie, or a necessary movie, or a correct movie, but you can't seriously argue that it's a subversive movie. It didn't subvert anything. It was received with loud acclamation by the most powerful and most mainstream influencers of public opinion that exist in our society. These aren't the people who lead revolutions. These are the people whose job it is to protect the power structure. While keeping in mind that the glowing media response to the eighth Star Wars franchise movie episode is of course a tiny, tiny, tiny part of a much bigger picture, you have to understand that if thinking TLJ is a good movie was in any way disruptive to anything that the oppressive forces in our society actually cared even slightly about, the kinds of people who are hired to review movies for these platforms would find some way to kick its figurative teeth in until it went whimpering off into the institutionally designated corner reserved for cultural and ideological rejects.

When these media people say TLJ is "subversive" what they really mean is that it gives them the feeling of engaging in a revolutionary act without actually having to go out on a limb or state a truly controversial opinion or stand up to the suits who write their paychecks. It’s all form with no content, just like their work, and just like their lives. The old ways are flawed and need to be reformed, sure. Yeah, let’s stick it to the Man, yeah! But how are the old ways flawed? What does reform actually look like? Well, TLJ doesn’t really answer either of those questions. It mostly just involves some vague notion of girl power or something? Maybe? Everything else basically just stays the same, I guess. And there you have it. That’s the kind of anemic, surface level progressivism the Walt Disney Company can really get behind!

 

Ripley, Sarah Connor, Leia, et al, are show-don't-tell methods of progress. Tell-don't-show methods of progress have an alternate staying power.

 

Just based on my personal experience, from people ive talked to (your experience could be vastly different and that's okay) the Prequel Trilogy has been reevaluated among Star Wars fans of recent due to their feelings about the Sequel Trilogy and how Disney has handled the legacy characters, the new characters, and the IP as a whole. the common thing i hear lately is "sure the dialogue was awful most the time but when i went back and watched the prequels, at least the story was clear and concise and the characters acted naturally". I think the handling of Luke Skywalker has been a large instigator in all of that. just my personal experience. I know ive gone back and found a huge appreciation for what the prequel trilogy gave us after how disappointed i was with the Last Jedi and the Sequel Trilogy thus far.

 

I am glad more people are appreciating the prequels, and the ideas in them, though it is too bad it took so long and a few more not-great movies to illustrate that.

 

I dont disagree with you. I see that quite a lot on the internet and that is a factor in the perceptional change but that isnt enough to change the discourse from the PT being "not so bad anymore" to the PT being loved by fans who grew up with them.

That was for the people who didn't like the PT before the ST. Thats different from the kids born in the mid to late 90s who didn't have an attachment to the OT, and therefore wanted more PT stuff immediately after TFA.

Given that TFA came out at the same time a new SW movie would be judged and compared to its predecessors, but also by the PT generation that was entering college, the people who hated the PT dont care to bash it as much, but those who loved it from the start have gained a platform on the internet.