ST The Director and The Jedi - The TLJ Documentary Discussion Thread

Nvm

 

How do I know RJ's vision is off in TLJ? As a general rule I am suspicious of any STAR WARS film critics like.

 

Maybe, although I don't think the backlash around the alternative things you mention is strong enough to be a major factor. Sure, that's all valid crit if you feel that way and obviously there are people that do. But the main and most furious backlash comes from the angles they expected - I just think the strength of the vitriol was stronger than anticipated. I think the furstrations - on all sides - creep in, when RJ and co are talking about the film and why they made certain choices, and that openness is then latched on to by the more unreasonable detractors of the film, using it as proff that the film doesn't work "if you have to explain it, it's terrible!" etc, etc. I think the rest of what you talk about falls into - valid but subjective crit that isn't shared across the board / you can't please everyone all the time/ nothing they can do about it now - territory.

Factor in the idea that many fans (myself included) take all this stuff way too seriously, and I think this kind of fall out (to varying degress) is always going to face the saga films (personally, I think there is a bigger problem with fandom than the films). Recalling the boards at this stage in the post TFA cycle, TFA was being hated on very strongly by a good chunk of the fans. And I think some of the backlash was deferred from TFA, by some who were waiting to see how TLJ would handle Rey's origins and Luke's exile. There was a fair amount of pent up hate that some were waiting to unleash, and not all of that is on TLJ.

 

Great post, I think you summed up very concisely what a lot of the TLJ backlash is about. Not to mention there were some really strong head canons developed in the fandom post-TFA when it came to major stuff like Luke’s role in the ST and Rey’s parentage.

 

Why do people get attached to head canon? Why not just stick your face in a fan and expect it not to hurt? It would be a lesson well learnt and much more cheaply than investing in trying to pre-empt the storyline and the narrative.

 

The bigger issue is that when you piss off any obsessive Star Wars fan (and I include myself in this) you’re up against someone obsessed and that obsession leads to a culture not entirely out of step with a political campaign right down to manipulative editing of videos, organized poll trolling, and more . And the 2 biggest things that they did that pissed off the most amount of people, creating hundreds of thousands of critics who then found more enjoyment in destroying it by any means necessary from as many angles of attack as they could find, was the handling of Luke Skywalker and the lack of a lineage tie-in for Rey. Those 2 choices, IMO, are what lead people to attack episode VIII for things that have long existed in Star Wars.

Similar to what occurs during political campaigns the influencers spread the AV campaigns out and the foot soldiers spread the gospel and it’s never been easier to organize or spread messaging than today. “Watch this 2 hour take down video where every aspect of this fantasy world is scrutinized!” Check out this hilarious meme about what they did to Luke. That leads to more anger, which then leads to criticism of other areas, which then becomes so intense that people who enjoy the film decide they’d rather step away from discussing it with the angriest entirely, which then leads to an echo chamber, which then leads to more anger and campaigning, etc. It’s very reminiscent of the last US election in this regard. Eventually it reaches the point or click bait headlines, fake news, and conspiracy theories and we are already starting to see some of that occurring.

In social media any Trumper who doesn’t fit the stereotype of a Trump follower is basically championed and rolled out on network TV and has tons of followers. The same thing is occurring in the hatred of this film now. If you don’t fit the stereotype for the narrative of people who dislike the film you’re now a golden goose. Are you a major in Feminist studies with a take down on Rey or Holdo? You’re going to get a ton of clicks. Do you feel that despite calls for the contrary that the ST is doing a horrible job with regard to diversity and representation? You’re going to get a ton of clicks. Fresh angles of attack is what the one side is most after at this point. Alongside anything to combat the narratives that currently circulate. It’s all remiscent of the last election campaign.

It’s less that the Last Jedi has more faults to pick away at than the average Star Wars film and more that the choices for Luke and Rey angered enough obsessives within the fandom (of which many of us are included and I don’t say this as an insult because it’s just how fandom is. We are fanatics) to further obsess over as many complaints as can possibly be argued. Regardless of whether the same things are common in other forms of Star Wars. Heck, even saying that is now being presented as “whataboutism” as though somehow Saga comparisons and perspective can only be utilized for attack and never for defense. It’s all reminiscent of a political campaign. Except, instead of it being about two sides trying to influence which perspective ultimately runs a nation, it's ultimately one side talking about something that's already been made that they really enjoy and another doing the opposite.

 

I would have loved to see more of the preproduction that went into the film, especially Johnson's meetings with the story group while writing the script.

 

This. So much this. The idea of petitions and storming the LFL castle just seem like entitled complaining to me. TLJ didn't ruin anyone's childhood. We all have the ability to decide if something makes us happy or miserable.

 

Right on. And I would say this type of thing has existed for as long as the internet and message boards have been around, BUT social media has been gasoline for this type of all out assault.

 

The good thing about the avalanche of new Star Wars films and series is that they will force us to stop worshipping SW in a pedestal, and just enjoy them as the films that they are.

When this happens we will enjoy each movie for their own strenghts.

Trekkies like everything about Trek, but they are free when discussing how good/bad the individual movies/series episodes are.
But the amount of positive views and proper perspective that they are only TV/movies are there.

Recent Star Wars reactions are like the films are the most important thing in the world, and fans are taking them as personal attacks when there is something they do not like.
And when something gets personal, people are very vocal online.
I do that all the time, just to the other extreme, because I like the movies. This is something I feel I need to improve on, and I hope the new films and series will help to change my view about SW, to put it into a more sane perspective.

Now we have this documentary, which is a "high level design document" about TLJ. This is a great window to how impossible is to try to do something different, and how seriously people take this thing which was supposed to be just a 50's TV serial homage.

 

I mentioned this in the Carrie thread...I watched the documentary, and it broke my heart when Carrie said, "...this is the end isn't it..." in a deleted line between her and Mark on Crait. I imagine that line can be used in IX, I could see both of their Force ghosts having a brief conversation at the finale, perhaps if the Skywalker line ends...

 

During Balance of the Force, listen closely starting at around 27 seconds in. You'll hear a sound. Continue watching and listening. At 52 seconds in you'll see Rian stirring his tea cup. Rian is either hypnotizing us with his tea cup, or he's performing an old tea ceremony. In the film, Luke tells Rey to "Go away!" In other words, "Get out! (of my life, and out of this system)." Luke was warning Rey of falling to the dark side.
Or...... did Luke not say "Go away", but "Go a way!" instead? Perhaps Rian was referencing Taoism, where Tao is translated as The Way.
"Let the past die." Maybe Rian's tea stirring scene is also connected to the Japanese concept Wabi-sabi.
“Wabi” means discouraged and pessimistic, while "sabi" means becoming old, fading away. This is very much how Luke is on the island. Wabi-sabi is a beauty of things imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete. It is a beauty of things modest and humble. It is a beauty of things unconventional.
Nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi

 

I've got about a half hour left to go in the documentary but the highlight for me so far was when they asked Carrie what it was like working with Rian. Her response is priceless. Really enjoying it so far.

 

I posted this almost a month ago as a joke having not seen the documentary yet. I just watched it last night and I'm pleased to report that KK does look slightly jolly, and almost calls RJ her best buddy too. Nice one, Kathy.

 

Quite aside from the fact that I wish she was still alive as person, it would have been so great to have Carrie around for the post release. Her candour would have been priceless.

 

Loved it. A very compelling documentary. I wish it was longer.

A lesson well learnt by many of us that went through the prequel films. It feels very much like we're seeing the new generation of SW fandom go through much of the same growing pain. I'm often amazed at how similar the arguments are.

 

Did you see the fanlore links the other day?

This has been going on since ESB.

 

This is the best Star Wars documentary yet, IMO. It's just as good as the now legendary LOTR documentaries.

 

Oohh, while I agree that this is a great documentary, this can not hold a candle to the Hobbit extended edition trilogy documentaries. We are talking about more than 12 hours of documentary, it goes into detail after detail after detail.

 

It is indeed a good documentary.

However, I recently rewatched 5 or 6 hours of The Appendices from The Fellowship of the Ring Extended Edition and those documentaries leave the TLJ stuff in the dust, imo.

 

yah I agree, they kinda breeze over the writing process a bit too much for my likes, although to be fair, it wouldn't be that visually interesting to just watch people musing and thinking

 

I definitely think such people have genuine issues..I mean, it’s akin to reading a book. But then tossing it to one side half way through due to not agreeing with the narrative direction taken by the author.
You know, the person that actually wrote the story..

 

It's a good documentary for sure :

It showed you how much effort it took to make the movie - 120 day shoot ,

But where Rian said he continuously questioned his Luke Skywalker direction I just wonder if Mark Hamill said stuff this I'm out unless you do something - what would Rian & Kathy have done ?

 

Probably pointed to his contract