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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Effect Of The Sequel Trilogy On Star Wars

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Ender_and_Bean, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    That’s not “way more than that”; that’s bravado with a hint of truth. He NEEDS the money, and he’s a bit scared of the stakes of the rebellion. He comes back at the last minute in ANH but the start of ESB shows him leaving to do his own thing, even though he now has friends in the rebellion.

    I would say that leaving even now the rebels are his friends isn’t much of a progression from leaving before he has relationships with people in the rebellion
     
  2. -LordSkywalker-

    -LordSkywalker- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Sorry I see it completely different. He was selfish in ANH. If it was just bravado he wouldn’t have left in the first place.

    In ESB he is leaving so he can get bounty hunters off his back, the ones on Ord Mandell to be specific. And this is after serving the Rebellion for three years! That fact gets no weight at all?

    And even in the conversation with Leia if you read between the lines he implies that he will stay if she admits how she feels.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
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  3. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    It gets no weight because the interim three years aren’t really important at all - the films pretty much imply they’ve been on the run and just found a base, and this is now the first bit of relative calm where he can go without doing the cause too much harm.

    He wasn’t as selfish in ANH as you are suggesting, or as selfless in ESB
     
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  4. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 13, 2017
    I agree with your interpretation. He wasn't running, he was looking to get his debt resolved, thus pulling the Rebellion out of danger. They have enough problems with the Empire without throwing in Bounty Hunters like Boba Fett; and Han mentioned another Bounty Hunter coming after them in TESB.

    Whether he WOULD come back, I admit was up in the air, but I think it shows when Leia coldly gives him a farewell and he begins to leave in a hurt huff.
     
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  5. -LordSkywalker-

    -LordSkywalker- Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2013
    Minimize the three years all you want. I don’t see one being selfish when after three years of service to a cause he decides to finally settle up with the gangster who has bounty hunters continually trying to kidnap or murder you.

    ETA: This debate notwithstanding Han has certainly regressed from where he was in ROTJ when we see him in TFA.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
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  6. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 13, 2017
    ..........I recall his exact words off the top of my head; 'I ain't in this for your little revolution, and I'm NOT in this for you, Princess. I expect to be well paid; I'm in it for the money."

    Chewie's presence, granted, speaks volumes of his heart being bigger than he'd let show, but he definitely goes far between the time of ANH and TESB.
     
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  7. Benoda

    Benoda Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2018
    I mostly agree with that. TFA rehashed quite a bit, and with all the development we saw in the OT, rehashing leads to regressing what we saw accomplished. While I can see Abrams trying to recreate the OT feel (which I think he was mostly able to), I think it was more inadvertent on Johnson's part. I think he tried to do something entirely different, but it ended up repeating a lot of what we've seen in the OT, but the new parts didn't really work well in my opinion (e.g. Luke hiding away, rewriting major aspects of the force, the grayness introduced through Canto Bight). To me, these aspects have strong potential, if they were carried out differently. I think it's plausible that a large part of the dislike in the film stems from, on the one hand, it rehashing much of what we've seen in the OT, while on the other hand completely changing things in ways which seem incongruous with prior lore. If you didn't like the rehash in TFA, then TLJ rehashed some more. AND, if you wanted something new, this movie does that too, but maybe not in a way which is appreciated.

    As to the discussion of Han's development, the way I see it, Han was just a smuggler until the end of ANH, where he has a change of heart and comes to help the rebellion by saving Luke's tail and then staying with them up through ESB. However, he's had a death mark hanging over his head with Jabba this whole time ("A death mark's not an easy thing to live with"), so he wants to go settle this at the beginning of ESB. While it certainly is debatable whether this would've ended his involvement with the rebellion had the Empire not attacked at that moment, he ultimately decides to stick around after he's saved from Jabba in the beginning of ROTJ. At the end of ROTJ, he's leading a rebellion group and lending his beloved ship to the attack on DS2.0. Regardless of whether or not he was going to jump ship completely at the beginning of ESB, he was certainly on board by the end of ROTJ.
     
  8. Organafan

    Organafan Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Jan 14, 2017
    I'm curious to see the effect of "The Last Jedi" on the next Star Wars Celebration.
     
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  9. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 7, 2016
    Personally i think Lucas's Original idea for luke in episode 7 training a young jedi may have been a better approach since it would have shown how far luke has come and kept a nice thread going.

    Judging by what was said they didn't go with that idea because it was seen as too prequel-esk so went with the more safe approach and just did female Luke skywalker 2.0

    It could be argued for the more casual audience doing a reset was probably more favorable but in terms of working as an episode 7 it stands slightly at odds.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Why do you think that to be seen as prequelesque was not desirable to LF, or at least, less safe?

    If the prequels had successfully conveyed an appealing story about the way the Jedi operated in the old republic, it would have been a no brainer for them to have reset to that kind of story.
     
  11. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    It gets a ton of weight in my book. He says "the bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell changed my mind" as to him staying - to me, that meant the bounty hunter tried to kill Leia or Luke or both. He leaves to stop endangering the rebellion. You don't hang around for three years with a cause that you don't care about. Riekkan says he's a good fighter that he hates to lose, Leia says he's a natural leader. As to whether he would have come back, I choose to think yes - it's completely unclear from the narrative - hell, for all we know, he thinks Jabba may feed him to the Rancor when he gets there to pay off the debt.

    He was going to put them in escape pods and drop them off before they said they had a map to Luke. But, no matter what you think of Han at the beginning of ANH - and JJ said that's the Han he wanted - he wouldn't have sold two kids to death gangs.

    Then they get to Takodana and after that ridiculous job offer to Rey who he's known for 20 minutes, he says to Maz that he can't take a map to Luke to Leia. That's regression to me. That's not even the man he was in ANH. That he would say he couldn't take a map to Luke to Leia is the moment I gave up on the whole ST. Right there. Then by the time they broke up Han and Leia for nothing, handed me the only child of the 3 of them - this person who looks nothing like Han or Leia, acts nothing like them but the narrative wants me to find him conflicted or sympathetic when his acting performance runs the gamut from A to A-, I was done with the ST. By the time they ran Han through before he even saw Luke again, I was done with Disney SW. At least I didn't have to see the travesty that Luke became - or rather, pay money for it. I guess I'll see the whole thing beyond the awful bits I've seen online, on TV someday.

    So hey, there's the effect of the sequel trilogy on me - TFA got me back into the fandom - out of spite. So I've now found all these old school fans and some new ones. I hope the new fans of Rey, Finn and Poe at least get something in ep 9 but I can tell you, the ones I know are still fuming about 8. And the spoilers I've seen so far don't lead me to believe the tide will turn that much.
     
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The Han we met in ANH didn't give a hoot about Luke, the hokey religion he was being initiated into and especially the rebellion.

    Han in ANH didn't change his tune when he discovered why his passengers had contracted him to give them passage to Alderann. He just reminded everyone that payment was all that mattered to him.
    Not so ridiculous if he's, at heart, the guy who had found friendship in the runt desert farmboy and the fiesty princess. And if he's seen qualities that reminds them of theirs, and his own, in this apparently capable girl.

    If Han was regressed to pre Yavin Han, the offer would have been somewhat ridiculous. The fact that he does undermines the notion that he's simply regressed to some relatively undesirable persona.
     
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  13. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 7, 2018
    No, it's not regressed to a relatively undesirable persona, it's turned back into an even more comic and stupider version of the guy he was in ANH (since we're not supposed to criticize creative types, I'll leave off my JJ tirade). But JJ himself said he wanted ANH Han and Leia because he wasn't a fan of ROTJ. Which is fantastic considering he was supposed to be making a sequel to it.

    The general from ROTJ wouldn't be back smuggling creatures, Leia wouldn't be thinking every time she looks at him she sees Kylo - because, c'mon, how is that even possible considering Driver bears no resemblance to Ford unless you count "both are dark haired human males." Han wouldn't leave Leia, I don't care if their son went to the dark side - they survived a war together, they survived him being frozen. For them to split up over their kid running off to the Space Fascists is as wrong as anything done to Luke.

    So yes, I believe Han has been regressed, just like Leia and Luke, because for some insane reason, every movie now has to follow Dark Knight and play the "don't meet your heroes" trope. One more thing I can add to the reasons I think Dark Knight is the one of the most overrated movies ever.
     
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  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    If this trilogy felt like it was trying to be anything like the Dark Knight I'd be the first one to protest.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  15. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    :D

    This reminds just how differently people set their expectations. Plenty of relationships start in their twenties and early thirties and endure though times leading to marriage before eventual separation. At least the writers had the good sense to go beyond these two opposites driving each other mad from arguing all the time like a lot of opposites who marry and falling out of love that way and built something around basically losing a son. Which would honestly end a lot of relationships. That they returned to what they did prior made sense, too. Every divorced dad I know goes back to bachelor life for a time and plays video games and goes out and drinks more at the pub again from having that increased freedom. Smuggling was a part of Han. He obviously liked it. People often make sacrifices for marriage regarding their own interests for their families.

    As for looks... It may have more to do with just memories. That said, their mouths and skull shapes are similar in size. Carrie’s eyes could have went to Driver. And some weird stuff happens in the mix. Look at Ford’s real kids for evidence of that. [​IMG]

    I do think there’s some similarities with the Luke arc and Batman’s in the Dark Knight rises though for what it’s worth.
     
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  16. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    I wish it was more like it.

    In fact, I'd like to see Nolan try his hand at the GFFA. Dunkirk, in particular, has shown that he can deliver the goods outside the Dark Knight trilogy world. Give the man an Anthology, or something.
     
  17. PendragonM

    PendragonM Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    @Ender_and_Bean you and everyone else can show me pictures of Driver and Ford until the cows come home (wait, they're off to another party!) and I will still say with my last breath that he looks NOTHING like Ford. He also looks nothing like Ben or Willard Ford either. I'll spare you my opinion of Driver's looks but suffice it to say, I read paeans to his hotness by his fans and I am completely baffled. I'm also baffled by paeans to his acting skills.

    Wouldn't it have been nice to have a couple who didn't divorce but pulled together in the face of adversity - which is what Han and Leia did every time in the OT but hey, all Kasdan and Abrams could say is "oh, they always fought" which I guess Larry erased all of ROTJ from his mind because they didn't fight in ROTJ. Instead he got the ending he wanted - Leia alone, Han dead and Luke off on his own, leaving like Shane. It's still wrong and a regression and destruction of those heroes.

    I don't know what the ST is for the OT 3 except a Dark Knight "rip up the hero" but just like I do not understand why Batman had to take the blame when he could have blamed the Joker, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what was gained by what was done to Luke, Han and Leia in the ST. Ripping up Han and Leia's marriage and saying they always fought - when they didn't. What was gained by slaughtering Han when Kylo can't even give us a reason why -oh, right, because it's act 3 and the oldest male lead has to die. Or what was gained by putting Luke on that island except not having to write a reunion scene with the most famous cast brought back for movies but never put in one scene together.
     
  18. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 6, 2018
    Well, Ben and Willard Ford's mother is not Carrie Fisher, so that's not really a standard to judge Driver's appearance on.

    In the end, he doesn't look like Ford to you. He does to other people. These sorts of things are notoriously subjective, despite the fact that faces are facts.
     
  19. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Maybe it's because Adam Driver wasn't hired for his resemblance to Fisher or Ford. Maybe it's because he has the acting abilities that the production team was looking for.

    Wild theory, I know.
     
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  20. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I love the endings for Han and Luke and was looking forward to seeing Leia’s. Unfortunately we will never get that chance to see what could have been. Seeing Han as a loving father who is willing to give his best shot to save his son while getting some great Han moments along the way was movie magic I feel fortunate actually happened.

    Same for Luke’s complex redemptive arc and crisis of faith, which might now be the the gold standard as far as stories dealing with veteran heroes who need saving go. Especially those that are dealing with that while also working in other arcs of importance. Luke’s redemptive arc built around his own morality being used against himself after another ROTJ-style Dark Side daze which actually had negative consequences for him while exploring some fascinating questions related to religion vs faith, family secrets and the power of talking about the past, and the risks of fundamentalism from ancient texts, all combine into a profound psychological arc that could have been an award-winning stand-alone drama related to veterans and family and faith and heroes that need saving had it just been a straight up drama expanded out. It’s the last stages of Campbell’s hero’s journey and rarely do you get there with characters. To have something like that in a Star Wars film that also plays into the Rey and Ben Solo dynamic as it does is one of the biggest reasons this film plays as well as it does for a lot of film geeks and professional critics. For Johnson to then top that off with an end of life redemptive cycle reminiscent in all the best ways to Anakin but in ways more unique to Luke, with a Leia reunion, and then a twist that he’s doing one of the most incredible Force sacrifices ever seen from sheer will and concentration, and then knowing he inspired others and became one with the Light to be with his father and mentor again for all time was a great end for an important character in fiction who still had more lessons to teach us as he had so many years ago. I hope he’s back as a force ghost to build on an improved relationship with Rey but even if he somehow isn’t I really enjoyed his arc.

    Far from ruining Han and Luke... the ST added new layers of complexity to them. In Han’s case it moved him past the more cartoony Endor moments he left us with. In Luke’s case it increased his depth to a point where a more interesting case between Anakin and Luke as characters can now take place.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
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  21. MS1

    MS1 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    I really like your points here and oddly it instantly made me think of JJ Abrams saying the story was good and he wished he directed it. I’m not JJ’s biggest fan but I think the movie would have been very different and I wonder if thats what his comment means more so than a compliment which is often assumed? Who knows but he chose to show Han in a way that we remember him and that brought back a fondness. “Chewie we are home” instantly made the SW fan feel at home as well in TFA. It could have been different and his leaving Leia and Kylo could have been done in a way to destroy the hero we see in him. Its very different to what was decided and done with arguably the most loved characture in SW and maybe film in TLJ. I have just been talking about the mirrored scenes in TLJ from ROTJ in another thread and I certainly feel TLJ doubles down on the rehash even more than TFA did and to me your point is spot on.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  22. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    One aspect of Star Wars that I think the ST is really challenging its fans on is lineage. PT fans and EU fans will remind that they, and aspects of Star Wars, moved past lineage long ago but to the majority of the fandom... I'm not sure many have. People pull for Ben Solo to find a way back still largely because of his lineage, because they know it would have mattered to Han and Leia, and because of the desire for some to see that the Skywalker bloodline lives on somehow. For others it's the opposite. They have posed the question if the Chosen One's bloodline is more of a plague on the galaxy itself due to its mix of incredible power and loss of control and temptations by the Dark Side. Some -- less -- want to see IX be the end of the Skywalker bloodline entirely to tell new stories about new people. Even that choice though relates to lineage.

    So many fans expected a plot twist related to lineage that even the inclusion of one wouldn't have been a twist really at all. The 4 most likely lineage reveals (Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi and Random) were discussed for years. We knew one was likely and they delivered us one. And yet still talk of whether it's all from a certain point of view or not persists and the lack of a last name for Rey lingers as a problem for many (or a hint that the story merely tried to stay one additional step ahead of expectations with what it told us in VIII for others).

    All of this makes me wonder sometimes how the OT would have been if Darth Vader really HAD been a friend of Luke's father who DID betray and murder him and those two never were related and if Leia and Luke hadn't been related. Lucas could have tried to explore forgiveness without the lineage tie-in. He could have had Luke become knowledgable of the man the orginal Vader used to be and of the wife he used to have and the friends he used to have and what all of those people must think of him now. He could have laid on the guilt and tried to inspire him to be more and to find his old self. Other films have done that. A non-lineage related choice to turn on his boss to save his former friend's son could have still been moving involving someone who might have (had he not turned) been more of an Uncle-figure to Luke. But I think we all know that all of that would have been less powerful and mythic. Rogue One is one of the most loved NEW Star Wars films among the hardcore community outside of the 1980s beyond ROTS. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if it was even more loved than ROTS within the hardcore fandom. And at its core is again a story about bloodline legacy, and a parent and child separated by war with a parent seen as a monster to the outside world and a child who's willing to give her life to ensure that his dying wish is fulfilled. What happens to RO if Galen was the same man of morality and regret that he was but had no children at all? What if Jyn never knew her parents at all and had simply been recruited as a child soldier and her parents had never been some mystery box thing to figure out at all (Although, let's be real. If they hadn't told us her parents ever we'd be speculating endlessly for the reasons explored in this very post)? What if her parents were just random to us the same way the rest of the RO's crew are? Rogue One still would have been an interesting film about a group of people from different backgrounds teaming up under unusual circumstances but it would have lacked that emotional power and that lineage quality that elevates it to higher heights.

    What does this tell us about stories set in the GFFA? For all new films set in this galaxy to be moving and powerful and mythic will they require some element of parent and child connections taking place? Do all of them require some revenge setup around what the villains did to a parent (perceived or otherwise)? Prior to the ST a lot of people had issues with the PT and guess what's missing there for much of its running time? A meaningful lineage tie-in and is it any surprise that the PT really seems to hit its next gear for Anakin's journey once Shmi dies and his sense of loss has increased? Is the GFFA reliant on these elements for successful storytelling to move stories from good to great for many people?

    Is there anything other than a lineage tie-in that can be personal or moving in the GFFA that lifts stories up the same way lineage can? It doesn't seem that way so far for a sizable amount of the fandom and I can understand why. When a lot of fans think of this brand they think of family. That's what it is for them more so than space battles, sabers, Light and Dark, and the Force. Lineage remains a crucial ingredient to myth but there are others. Romance is obviously another. The ST DOES feature some family drama obviously. It showed a son killing his father. That's mythic obviously. Rey also has parental issues of a different kind right now as we know her. She was abandoned and is struggling with the ramifications that come from being abandoned by caregivers. At its core right now, though, between hero and villain there is currently not a story driven by a lineage tie between Rey and Kylo Ren and that's making it feel different. It's highlighting in some ways just how reliant the OT really was on that dynamic for much of its power despite the saga's quality levels being far above 1970s and 1980s comparables just about everywhere else.

    This is a complicated problem. On the one hand, even something as simple as revealing at the end of IX that Rey was found in a wreck by junkers and that her real family last name was Kenobi suddenly does change so much about the ST overall. One small change like that suddenly makes the ST the perfect bookend to the PT with a parent and child story in the middle of those bookends. Especially if Rey and Ben ended things differently in IX than how Obi-Wan and Anakin did in III. Doing that one small thing would make this ST feel more like Star Wars. It wouldn't be hard to do and it would wrap up the entire 9 part story around the fates of Anakin and Obi-Wan and their offspring. I want that to be perfectly honest but at the same time it would only further highlight to me just how reliant all of the stories here are in lineage complications and leave me wondering how and when they can better stand on their own and be powerful stories without that component.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  23. TheCloneWarsForever

    TheCloneWarsForever Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 24, 2018
    I was fine with Rey being unrelated to anyone we knew - that was actually the story outcome I'd hoped for. Lineage is often used as a storytelling shortcut to building a bond between characters - I'd rather the bond actually be built through on-screen relationships and shared experiences rather than genetics. The "revelation" that Kylo was Han's offspring fell flatter than a lead balloon for me. The fact that Kylo represented Luke's failure as a teacher was a lot more powerful as was the fact that he felt he had let down Han and Leia - and that has nothing to do with Leia and Luke's shared generic lineage.

    ESB's "big reveal" for me was not Vader and Luke's shared genetic lineage. It was the fact that (1) Luke had built his entire life goal around the fantasies he had of following his heroic father's footsteps and now he had "met" that fantasy and his own potential future (2) Luke's replacement father figures had lied to him. Without those two elements, ESB's big reveal would have come across no better than a cheap soap opera twist. I was amused that DP was given the fake line of "No, Obi-Wan killed your father" because to me, that was just as juicy as the real line.

    So whatever "effect" the ST had on Star Was for me, it wasn't about lineage. The main characters of the TV shows shared not a strand of DNA between them but the family effect was not an iota less strong for that.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  24. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Me too.

    What was the reason it wasn't held this year? Considering SW films coming out every year, and the new Star Wars parks to open in 2019 - one would think there would have been plenty of content to drive it.
     
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  25. Chewies_bandolier

    Chewies_bandolier Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 5, 2002
    Lets see.... 2000 highly motivated Star Wars fans, locked in a convention hall for 18 hours waiting in line with sleep deprivation, toy light sabres and pizza thrown in.

    It would have been a carnage, I tell you.

    Seriously though - I guess they REALLY want to build up the launch of the theme park plus just perhaps, TPTB were a bit nervous about Solo, a year ago.
     
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