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The Emperor's Pawns article (was: Gamer #5 stuff @ TOS!!!)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by jedimasterED, Jun 28, 2001.

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  1. Moridin

    Moridin RPG Author star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 1999
    [blockquote]By Valiento:Honestly your anti-marvel bigotry, shouldn't apply since of what ben harper, and pablo hidalgo has said already about marvel, and that article in particuler. especially what you said would make lurdo's comic part of continuity, and well, that would be pretty hard to fit in, especially since it's the only thing inside the issue to have an infinities logo on it, besides the front of the cover.[/blockquote]

    Several things. One: stop jumping to conclusions. NOWHERE did I mention anything anti-Marvel. The fact that you call it "bigotry" is certainly an indication that you did not read the post carefully and are lashing out defensively with no cause. Additionally, you're tossing about the word "bigot" awfully easily there, I'm not entirely sure it means what you think it means. You have no cause to jump down my throat like you did, and I won't bother treating you as a worthy part of this discussion if you can't moderate your reactions.

    Two: Obviously, the comic strips intended as humor don't have any place in continuity, any more than the stormtrooper/Vader comic strip in the first issue was part of continuity. If anyone remembers the "Is my Jar Jar Coloring Book Canon?" thread, there are certain things, such as humor strips and children's books, that aren't considered continuity. The fact that the comics strip itself has the Infinities logo on it denotes it as non-continuity; JD Wiker, as you will see in his quote below, is referring only to articles.

    [blockquote]Umm, you got be kidding, you have to be completly wrong for one fact in issue 3, ben harper had this whole big letter, on how marvel is official, and always been official, just some people working in marvel and del rey chose to ignore it. [/blockquote]

    If you reread Ben's letter, he says that they did not disavow Marvel, NOT that it has always been official. However, the entireity of the Marvel series is not Official. In fact, currently very little is. Ben mentions that they are "are being integrated into official Star Wars canon." This means that the comics are NOT currently part of continuity, but certain elements are being brought into continuity over time.

    [blockquote]By JD Wiker, R&D Team Member of Wizards of the Coast: As I recall, it was just the Starhoppers article that was considered an Infinities article. I actually asked Mike Mikaelian [the new editor for Star Wars Gamer] this same question, and he told me that the article itself was supposed to have the Infinities logo. We're going to try to identify those in future.[/blockquote]

    The above is the response to the letter I sent to my contact, who works at WotC. If anyone would know, the authors surely would.

    [blockquote]More by Valiento: So honestly I don't trust your sources exactly. Just have to wait and see. [/blockquote]

    What sources do you trust, then? I think you are believing what you WANT to believe, not what is. Personally, I like some elements of the Marvel series and want to see them integrated, but for the most part I don't care either way. There is no bias here; in fact, since I like some elements of the Marvel series, I'm probably more pro-Marvel than not.

    Since there is no search function on these accursed boards, I can't go back and read Pablo Hidalgo's post. I would like to, so if anyone can point me to it I'd be pleased. However, I doubt Mr. Hidalgo will be calling down the fire and brimstone because his article was made non-continuity. Why was it done so? Ask LucasFilm. They're the ones in charge of it. However, as it stands now the article itself is Infinities, as is the Lurdo comic strip, but the rest of the issue is Official continuity as it can be applied. I have proof, as stated above. If you care to provide a counter-argument with more proof than "no that can't be right" I'll be happy to continue the discussion civilly.
     
  2. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    I'm sorry I got a bit out of hand, I apoligise for calling you a bigot.

    One question, if marvel isn't incorporated into the official timeline, then what in the world was the Essential chronology doing?

    Here's pablo's message from Gamer #4 stuff @ tos!!!, it was in refrence to many people worring that the Aduma article would be non-continuity.

    [blockquote]Pablo_Hidalgo
    Registered: Apr 01
    Date Posted: 5/3 1:51pm Subject: RE: Gamer #4 Stuff at TOS
    Calm down, folks. As far as I know only one story in Issue #4 is marked with the Infinities logo (can you guess which one?). It's on the cover to introduce the concept to those otherwise not familiar with it, and referenced in the editor's foreward.

    Since Gamer is a multi-era magazine, it's unlikely that one era symbol would be indicative of its entire content. The marked story aside, the rest of the mag works in continuity.[/blockquote]
     
  3. Moridin

    Moridin RPG Author star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 1999
    What was it doing in the Chronology? Integrating. Those parts don't mean that ALL of Marvel was integrated, but those parts they could. It's a slow process, but it will be done eventually. As for the Pablo Hidalgo quote (thanks by the way), all I have to go on is what one of the guys at WotC said. But we'll see.
     
  4. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    Moriden the EC basically integrated every issue. Oviosly hoth stuff, and issue 81, really can't fit. But aduba doesn't really conflict with anything, and did alot of snazzy continuity links, between other stories.
     
  5. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    "However, as it stands now the article itself is Infinities, as is the Lurdo comic strip",

    Why is the article considered infinities anyways? ?[face_plain]

    It makes no sense to me.It doesn't contradict anything,that I can see.

    Let the Sprites be considered in continuity.They're cool.Did you guys chicken out?Where you afraid fans would complain about a 6 foot tall rabbit?It's no more absurd then a 10 foot tall slug crime lord,or a man appearing as a ghost,or sound in space,or lightsabre ot....get the point?

    I certainly hope they become continuity one of these days.


    (Lurdo?Who the hell cares about Lurdo?I'm glad he's infinities :p :p )
     
  6. pat-fett

    pat-fett Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2001
    I hope issue 6 is about Tales of the Jedi. It could also be an article that makes characters from the more serious stories in Tales fit into continuty,which is just as good.
     
  7. Wedge 88

    Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 1999
    "It's no more absurd then a 10 foot tall slug crime lord"

    Who's that? :D

    "Why is the Skyhopper article Infinities?" Good question...

    "Why is Tales Infinities?" Hmm...
     
  8. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Hey there folks. Just thought I'd stop by and respond to some of the reactions that the Emperor's Pawns article has been getting (I'm Abel, BTW).

    I guess I should start out by saying that when I read and write SW, I go for a real feeling that everything fits together, and I mean everything, save the recent Infinities comic story arc. That's just the approach I take.

    Anyway, that said, I'll go ahead and talk about the article a little.

    For those of you who've enjoyed it, I'm glad. I put a lot of love into the article, and decades of accumluated SW lore. I figured it was about time to use some of it.
    Thanks especially to Ana's vocal support; for an author to get appreciate like that is priceless. (BTW Ana, email me and let me know what's been going on).

    One of the interesting reactions I read was a critique about Lumiya's further "Vaderization." The claim if I'm not mistaken is that Shira was raised on Palpatine's estate/palace, hence she must have been raised/trained by Palpatine. While I imagine that that would have been a possibility, I do not think the derived conclusion of being trained by Palpatine is a necessary one. According to Marvel ish #63, Shira was part of an experiment in adolescent indoctrination. Nowhere is it literarily or artistically hinted that Palpatine had a personal hand in her training -- she is merely shown sparring with some persons. However, her association with Vader is made very clear. "Personally selected by Lord Vader for infiltration into banned organization known as 'Rebel Alliance.' Vader project required total razing of city of Chinshassa ... Project's purpose: the elimination -- either actual or effectual of Rebel Commander Luke Skywalker." What's more, at the end of the issue, Vader is the one that saves Shira from death, declaring, "Now, more than ever, I have need of Shira Brie!" After this, we see Shira transformed into the mechanized Lumiya in issue 88 -- clearly paralleling Vader. Thus while I admit it might have been cool if Shira had been raised and trained by Palpatine, the hints I felt of her kinship with Vader were simply overwhelming. Thus I saw no objection in continuing to vaderize Lumiya.

    Why was Tremayne left out? Well, a couple reasons. For one, Tremayne might be covered in the Dark Side Sourcebook, so don't count him out yet. Also, Tremayne is better known as an inquisitor, so I thought it more appropriate if Tremayne is covered in in an article dedicated to the Inquisitorius. Lastly, I had made a reference to him, as well as Sedriss and other known Hands in the intro, but alas, it was one of the many things that were cut from the article.

    What's the deal with the Followers of Palawa, Teras Kasi and the Force? Well, my view is that the Palawa way is how these guys touch the Force; teras kasi martial arts just sort of fine tuned their connection. Teras Kasi can be learned by any one, but it doesn't make you Force-sensitive. Of course, that's just my view. Ultimately, what counts is what's appoved, and if someone decided to write a story that a non-Force sensitive who learns teras kasi suddenly became Force sensitive and (this is very important) it got approved by LFL, well then, that would be the case after all -- until it gets contradicted. :p

    Anyway, if anyone has any questions or comments, I'll be hanging around for a while. Thanks for your comments thus far.

    Best,
    Abel
     
  9. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    ohhhhh....yeah....I want that article on the Inquisitorious ;)

    Go write it! ;)

    Ohhh yeah great job in Gamer 5 BTW.

    I'm a very happy person. :D
     
  10. Ana Vitorrian

    Ana Vitorrian Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 1999
    You're right, Halagad! We're way over due for another roundtable discussion!

    I like the way you nipped a SW detail from the back end of Mike Stackpole's scripting in the X-wing books with SW details from the Dark Empire Sourcebook, (i.e., from the "Sarcev Quest" info).

    However, there's all kinds of stuff "nipped" in there that was cool!

    This is an all around solid article! I really enjoyed it - so we've got lots to talk about!

    Take care and congrats on your work!

    Ana V
     
  11. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    Yeah I loved that too.

    Bout time we got an official continuity fix.
     
  12. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    Excellent article. Keep up the good work.
     
  13. Wedge 88

    Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 1999
    God, I want this issue!
     
  14. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Abel,

    Thanks for responding. Most of your comments stemmed from my comments regarding the article (which was excellent, btw).

    "I guess I should start out by saying that when I read and write SW, I go for a real feeling that everything fits together, and I mean everything, save the recent Infinities comic story arc. That's just the approach I take."

    Excellent! I think that's indeed one of the things which sets Star Wars apart from anything else - the tight continuity of a grand saga. That "tight" continuity can only happen if people do pay close attention. Even though LFL does indeed have continuity editors and what-not, the first line of defense must be with each individual writer to make sure the material fits with what we already know. A daunting task and possibly high expectations, I know. But, also that's why Star Wars is so good.

    "One of the interesting reactions I read was a critique about Lumiya's further "Vaderization." The claim if I'm not mistaken is that Shira was raised on Palpatine's estate/palace, hence she must have been raised/trained by Palpatine. While I imagine that that would have been a possibility, I do not think the derived conclusion of being trained by Palpatine is a necessary one."

    True. It however was mentioned in the original source as well as the later Star Wars Galaxy #3 article. Shira Brie was raised on Palpatine's estate. I find it strange that it would then be Vader and not Palpatine who would discover her Force-sensitivity, especially since Palpatine was rumored to have raised another red-headed, Force-sensitive girl on his estate - Mara Jade.

    "However, her association with Vader is made very clear. 'Personally selected by Lord Vader for infiltration into banned organization known as 'Rebel Alliance.' Vader project required total razing of city of Chinshassa ... Project's purpose: the elimination -- either actual or effectual of Rebel Commander Luke Skywalker." What's more, at the end of the issue, Vader is the one that saves Shira from death, declaring, 'Now, more than ever, I have need of Shira Brie!"

    I agree that Shira was probably always meant to be a sort of kindred spirit to Vader. I looked at her character quite differently, though. Instead of being a daughter figure to Anakin Skywalker, I saw her paralleling Anakin and being a daughter figure to the Emperor, the man who owned the estate she grew up on. That is, everything about her character points to a "new" Vader character, I agree. When I said "Vaderization" what I meant was that the focus was being taken away from Palpatine and given to Vader, not that she wasn't made more like Vader. I would agree Lumiya was always meant to take Vader's place after ROTJ. But, that would also mean she should've been Palpatine's "apprentice" not Vaders.

    "Why was Tremayne left out?"

    Again, my comment. The question of his Hand-status was made ambiguous in GG:9 where it stated that he was rumored to be be a Hand.

    "Well, a couple reasons. For one, Tremayne might be covered in the Dark Side Sourcebook, so don't count him out yet."

    I definitely hope so!

    "Also, Tremayne is better known as an inquisitor, so I thought it more appropriate if Tremayne is covered in in an article dedicated to the Inquisitorius."

    Yes, I would agree that an article dedicated to the Inquisitorius would also be a great article. However, my whole point was that a fairly complete article about the Emperor's Hands should've helped define his Hand-status.

    "Lastly, I had made a reference to him, as well as Sedriss and other known Hands in the intro, but alas, it was one of the many things that were cut from the article."

    Aaaaah. Well, then I can't really fault you at all. Your research has been of the highest quality and it did show in the article. It's a shame that "important" (well, for us insane die-hards ;) details got cut from the article.

    "What's the deal with the Followers of Palawa, Teras Kasi and the Force? Well, my view is that the Palawa way is how these guys touch the Force; teras kasi ma
     
  15. Wedge 88

    Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 1999
    Fix those markup codes, boy! :p
     
  16. Ana Vitorrian

    Ana Vitorrian Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 1999
    In my previous post, I meant to say "X-wing comic books" (NOT "books"). Sorry for the confusion, if any.
     
  17. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Too late. Guess I should review things with codes a bit better. :D
     
  18. Wedge 88

    Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 1999
    Heh. Its okay, everything is just in italics now. I think everone should post in italics, all the time.
     
  19. Wedge 88

    Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 1999
    Yay, it seems there was some error and I it wasn't shipped to me. I had to call them, and they are now sending it... but its going to take 2 weeks for it to get here! I'm so happy now. :(

    Gah, no one cares anymore. Nevermind.
     
  20. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Hey folks. Thanks again for the comments. The Pestage discrepancy between the DESB and the X-wing comics has been a thorn in my side for a long time, mainly because I was very moved by the humblest-servant portrayal Michael Allen Horne gave Pestage. The opportunity seemed right to fix things.

    Genghis, thanks for your compliment about the research being of the highest caliber. In a half-joking way, I consider myself an SW pundit as Pablo Hidalgo once put it, and in the article I sought to speak to the other SW pundits out there who like me have an excessive store of SW nuance in their heads.

    The Pestage fix is a good example, but there are others which I think maybe only one or two other human beings in the world will catch without some prompting. Example: Maarek Stele's achievement of the title "Tan." That's actually a continuity fix of the most obscure order you can imagine. On the back cover of the TIE Fighter strategy guide, for some odd reason Maarek Stele is called "Tan Stele." In an unrelated and decade+ earlier flub, Luke's father is referred to as "Tan Skywalker" in the Russ Manning comic strips. I leave the conclusions to be drawn by the fans on this one.

    So, there's lots of that going on in the article to quite an obsessive level: check out the "Old Galactic Standard" speaking ability Arden Lyn has in her rpg stats, a take off of Marvel's original attempt to name the official language of the SW galaxy; tying the Emperor's incapcitated state and shortage of clones in SW Missions: Vader's Return with the trip to Korriban shortly after Yavin mentioned in Empire's End #2 (Jeng Droga entry); one of the things that tipped me in the direction of making Lumiya daughter-like for Vader is the uncanny correlation to be made between Vader finding Shira comatose in a TIE Fighter and the exact same thing happening to Vader in the all but forgotten choose-your-way adventure Scoundrel's Luck. Like I said, I try hard to tie up loose ends and make things seem like they're supposed to fit, and (for the most part) take the most logical course.

    Incidentally, most will probably wonder if I pulled Jeng Droga and Sarcev Quest out of my hookah. The answer is no. The more obvious one is Jeng Droga, who appears prominently in a short vignette that is a prelude to the rpg adv "The Kaal Connection," in AJ #6 or 7. As his bio evolved, Joe Corroney and I sought a possible illustration we could use as reference -- check out Empire's End #2, page 9 or so, the bottom panels. See the guy that says ?But excellency, that would be too dangerous??? That's Droga.

    Sarcev Quest is a bit more of a mystery, particularly since the most telling line was ultimately cut. Check out the old guy in the resource article "Tasariq: The Crystal Planet" in AJ #15; the illo is on pg 177, and the little information about him (not even a name) is on 215 and 216. Probably too nitpicky for most people, but it gave me and Joe a chance to get creative with a character that didn't have too much background baggage. Joe for his part did an awesome job staying true to the original illustration, but making it look about 50 times better.

    Take care all,
    Abel
     
  21. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    OMG...you are a god in SW continuity.....freaking awesome...I am awestruck.

    You gonna write anymore articles?Maybe clear up that whole Kessel thing Classic SW :Early Adventure's series? ;) ;)What could that be included in?An article on Kessel? ;)
     
  22. The Gatherer

    The Gatherer Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 1999
    Yes, I tip my hat to Abel, he is a continuity, chronology, canon master.

    He is the CCC king! :)
     
  23. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    Shocked and amazed.
     
  24. Darth Ludicrous

    Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2000
    Hey, Mick, think we should make Abel VIP so everyone bothers him over his colors and continues to worship him for his article?
     
  25. The Gatherer

    The Gatherer Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 1999
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