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Lit The Empire's future: the First Order, or the Fel Dynasty & Imperial Knights?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    A few questions in one thread, now that it's been some time since TFA and some worldbuilding has been fleshed out.

    We know that in Legends, the Imperial Remnant made peace with the New Republic after many more years of war after Endor, then rebuilt and allied with their former enemies. The military oligarchy of the Imperial Remnant (the Moffs) eventually had a new Emperor imposed on them in Jag Fel, and his son and eventually grandson and great-granddaughter would succeed him, forming the Fel Dynasty. The Imperial Mission was founded, to help rebuild planets and lift people out of poverty (like the Peace Corps combined with the Marshall Plan). Similar programs fell under the Fel Empire's "Victory Without War" initiative. Jag Fel (who also happened to marry the daughter of Leia and Han Solo) also oversaw the creation of the Imperial Knights... basically Jedi Knights who obeyed the Emperor like how the PT-Jedi obeyed the Senate and Jedi Council. Since Fel II, Roan Fel, and Marasiah Fel were trained Imperial Knights, you could even say the Fel Empire was a Jedi Empire, and what it would be like if a Jedi had become Emperor. The Imperial Knights were sworn to obey the Emperor (or Empress), seeing them as the best embodiment of the will of the Force... but if an Emperor/Empress were ever to be seduced to the dark side, it was also the sworn duty of all Imperial Knights to either redeem or kill the monarch, since their highest allegiance was always to the Force. The Fel Dynasty also gradually fought for and won more inclusion and equality for non-humans and women in their Empire. There was a time in the Fel Empire when their military oligarchy, which always had the authority to check the power of the Emperor (preventing the Fel Dynasty from becoming absolute monarchs) outright rebelled after making new outside sinister allies, and overthrew the Fel's in a coup, but Fel rule was restored 8 years later.

    In NU Canon, the Empire was quickly defeated after Endor. Remaining Imperial territory made peace and was gradually absorbed by the New Republic in waves of peaceful annexation. A secret splinter force apparently survived undetected and rebuilt in the Unknown Regions for decades. In the New Republic, one of the two main political parties in a very gridlocked political environment was the Centrists, advocating for greater galactic government centralization and control. Some Centrists were former Imperial true-believers or Imperial sympathizers in the new generation, and some of those Centrists world seceded from the New Republic and apparently joined forced with the secret military force and secret bases in the Unknown Regions, becoming the First Order. Led by Supreme Leader Snoke, the First Order seems much more ideological, purist, and fanatical, with hints that it might be a military totalitarian state. They are trying to be taking the strongest/best elements of the Empire (in their view) while weeding out the rest. It does seem to have achieved complete inclusion and equality of at least humans, though it's not entirely clear.. Soldiers are trained from birth. Their military is eager to destroy worlds to achieve their goals. The Supreme Leader, and one of his chief enforcers, are both affiliated with the dark side of the Force. The First Order has just launched a devastating first strike that destroyed the capital of the New Republic and most of its fleet, but the responsible weapon and a very valuable hidden base of theirs was soon destroyed too by the Republic-affiliated military organization known as the Resistance.



    1. Which of these two paths seems to legitimately be the most likely future for the Galactic Empire, post-Endor: the First Order (NU Canon) or the Fel Dynasty and Imperial Knights (Legends)?
    (I know that it's arguable if either is technically a direct and legitimate continuation of Palpatine's Empire, but let's overlook that for now)

    2. Which do you personally prefer for storytelling purposes for the future of the Empire and Galaxy: the First Order or the Fel Empire?

    3. Which is the greater threat to the heroes: the First Order or the Fel Empire?

    4. Which is the more interesting and thought-provoking enemy: the First Order or the Fel Empire?

    5. Which would you rather take over the galaxy, and you personally live under their rule: the First Order or the Fel Empire?

    6. Overall, which one are you a bigger fan of?


    I know those are some rather direct questions to get us started, but I hope this thread can be more of a debate and discussion.
     
  2. masterskywalker

    masterskywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2001
    The First Order I believe is a more effective bogeyman to 21st century than a rehashed Empire. A nation of fanatical diehards, who raise their children in exile to hate all that opposes them, and launches a murderous spree upon its neighbors. If the Empire represented the worsts of the "old" terrors such as Soviet Russia under Stalin and the Nazis, then the First Order is North Korea, ISIS, and a revived Russia, casting an eye towards its neighbors who have been at peace for many years...

    The Fels also fall into the Star Wars hereditary trap that the ONLY people who make history are part of a certain bloodline. I can accept the Destiny of the Skywalkers was to restore the Jedi and destroy the Sith. Ruling the galaxy is a bit much even for me.
     
  3. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Honestly, I think this is the one occasion where making peace with your enemies is the less preferable option. The Galactic Empire is an organization of Space Nazis who committed unforgivable crimes and were an ideology and dictatorship which didn't deserve to be lionized. Live and let live is a great philosophy, except, it's live and let live with totalitarian fascists. But it's okay because they're our allies?

    Oh and Princess Leia's descendants become the rulers of the Empire.

    Yeah, that's a good way to honor Alderaan.

    Sorry.

    The Felpire just never sat right with me.
     
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  4. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    The First Order is a better bogeyman, sure, since the Fel Empire isn't meant to be one. That said, the First Order IS a rehashed Empire. Sure, it might have different ideals, be more fanatical than the most COMPNOR of the Empire, but overall it serves the exact same function as the old Empire. Maybe if it was militarily on the level of the Resistance, it would've worked better.

    Sure its okay to make them our allies considering the Empire in Legends is hardly 100% Space Nazis. It's more split between Space Nazis (primarily COMPNOR, but I'd count Tarkin and those like-minded here), regular militarist authoritarians and the Core nobility. That said, I'm also a Kissingerist 'cold pragmatist' so I generally wouldn't care about the kind of people we'd make as allies. Nazi hardliners tend to not be the best when it comes to that, however. Fanatics are never satisfied and little peace can be made with them. Hitler and the Nazis were living proof of that. First Order when it comes to Star Wars. On the other hand, some people just like having a strongman dictator. Personally, I prefer having the liberty of electing my leader and voting him out of office if he doesn't do his job, however I'll take Putin over a real neo-USSR (or worse, Zhirinovsky actually taking power) and Assad over ISIS any day.


    2. Which do you personally prefer for storytelling purposes for the future of the Empire and Galaxy: the First Order or the Fel Empire?
    The Fel Empire. The redemption arc of the Empire from being tools used by Palpatine as means of sustaining his power to bringing ACTUAL order rather than genocide to the Outer Rim is good. Also being ran by Leia's descendants is a plus. Nothing better to honor Alderaan than redeeming the Empire that destroyed it, and making it a force of opposition to atrocities on that level. Star Wars is a story of redemption overall, and i'll take redeeming the Empire through better leaders coming to lead it as an example of redemption over say, a mass murderer allowed to roam free because hey, he doesn't have his superpowers anymore! That said, no reason why you can't have a moderate Empire as an ally to the good guys and the First Order as fanatical enemies both.

    3. Which is the greater threat to the heroes: the First Order or the Fel Empire?
    The First Order, but its because the Fel Empire isn't really a threat or a villain.

    4. Which is the more interesting and thought-provoking enemy: the First Order or the Fel Empire?
    Both could be seen as the two sides of the original Empire, which is why it'd be good to have both around. Like I said, First Order as the fanatics who believe that the Fel Empire is betraying the original ideals of Palpatine. COMPNOR Remnants, basically.

    5. Which would you rather take over the galaxy, and you personally live under their rule: the First Order or the Fel Empire?
    I'd rather live under the Fel Empire. With the Imperial Mission in mind, it seems to have the first-ever galactic welfare system which indicates a high standard of living. As for taking over the Galaxy? The Fel Empire never really had it in mind to that, Roan seemed to be satisfied with his lot. The Moffs' Empire with Sith support (later just Krayt's Empire) were the ones that made a gamble to take over the Galaxy.

    6. Overall, which one are you a bigger fan of?
    Fel Empire, for all the reasons above.
     
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  5. FTeik

    FTeik Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2000
    The Fel Empire.

    It is a bigger threat/challenge for the heroes on an ideological level and it is more challenging from a story-telling POV. Also it walks a thin line between becoming more like the good guys and falling back into evilness.

    The First Order on the other side has already crossed that line , it is basically the OT-Empire on steroids, more radical, more evil, more destructive. Its simplicity from a story-telling POV is insulting.

    Nobody sane would want to live under the FO.
     
  6. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    how is this even a question
     
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  7. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2003
    WHY is this even a question?
     
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  8. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Honestly, the problem with the Felpire is it's exactly the same as the First Order in terms of what it ends up being used as. When we're introduced to the Felpire, it's in the middle of a military coup with them near unanimously deciding to support the Grand Moffs submitting to the Sith. We never get a reason as to why the Imperials want to serve Emperor Krayt and his one-dimensionally evil Death Cult nor why the Moffs never think they can take him on.

    But it's basically 99.9% of the Felpire deciding to side with people who are even more obviously evil than Palpatine and Vader.

    Hell, Krayt and company really are much-much worse than Vader at public relations.

    Think on that.
    It never seemed all that good save under Zahn.

    http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2016/01/are-first-order-actually-good-guys.html

    The Centrists show otherwise.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    That's because the Centrists are generally not fully informed about the nature of the First Order.

    "Sane and fully informed" might have been better phrasing.
     
  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    That's assuming the First Order is going to be North Korea vs. Russia.
     
  11. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    But they did think they can take him on. Their whole plan was to remove Fel, then remove the One Sith. Problem is One Sith took advantage of the situation and got the upper hand on the Moffs. Also it wasn't 99% of the Felpire. There WASN'T much of a Felpire outside of the territories that were under Roan Fel's Empire-in-Exile. Everything else was a capitulated Galactic Alliance. It was more like the GA bureaucracy surrendering to the Moffs and One Sith, and cooperating from then on. The actual Felpire didn't even want any kind of war with the GA. They were totally fine with co-existence. Fel's own forces, like the Imperial Knights and 501st, even stayed out of the fighting. It was more like the Moffs bringing in the fleets and troops under them alongside their and the Sith's war against the GA and Jedi.
     
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  12. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Their plan was Krayt would make Morlish Veed Emperor, except Krayt made himself Emperor. The Moffs never considered treason against the Sith. As for the Felpire, they had gained a lot more sectors under their control after the Yuuzhan Vong War (remember there was a whole council of Moffs) and they had expanded even further with the Victory without War program. Finally, much of the galaxy sided with the Felpire against the Alliance due to them siding with the Jedi against the Vong.

    You can't separate the Felpire from the Moffs. They're the same government.
     
  13. FTeik

    FTeik Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2000
    What has Zahn to do with the Felpire? Also, if we go with the Legacy-comics Roan Fel's Empire in Exile was a bigger problem for the One Sith and their Moff-quislings than the bureaucracy, remaining military - save Gar Stazi - and population of the conquered Galactic Alliance (which puts those even below the EmInEx).
     
  14. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I think you all know my responses.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  15. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    1. Zahn is the one who created Imperial apologia as a canon force (and well done).

    2. Roan Fel's Empire in Exile is just a breakaway faction of the Felpire as a whole.

    3. You keep mentioning the population of the GA but we never see their military, only Imperial forces in the service of the Sith.
     
  16. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007

    How would a bunch of Moffs remove ten thousand Sith Lords? Especially with the Jedi Order shattered and it's remnants scattered across the Galaxy? Did Veed honestly think his stormtroopers and pilots could stand against opponents like the One Sith?
     
  17. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    I'm honestly torn on this, because on the one hand the Fel Empire is certainly far more morally nuanced than the First Order, which seems to have as its guiding principle the removal of every sympathetic aspect about the Empire. And moral nuance is generally more interesting than "pure evil". But on the other hand, I'm not at all sure how well TPTB were able to handle that. A lot of the OP's questions are about which one would make a better antagonist, but the Fel Empire wasn't really that much of an antagonist at all. I didn't mind as much in Legacy because it was only one of several protagonistic factions - and generally shadier than the GA Remnant - but the post-NJO novels, as has been frequently complained about, almost seemed to be waxing rhapsodic about military dictatorship and portrayed the Empire better than the Alliance. So increasingly, I've come to feel that a long-post-Endor Empire becoming less evil is not a good idea from a storytelling perspective - and its in-universe plausibility seems to rely on some really shaky assumptions about all how all the Empire really needed was to ditch the Emperor.
     
  18. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I like the Felpire more and it seems to me to a natural and healthy progression of the empire.

    1. Moral nuance-the FO is one dimensionally evil it makes Krayt look like a Saint and Palpatine God himself, you have Fel-good man, Marasiah-good woman, bad moffs, decent commanders, and decent Knights.
    2. The Empire's evolution is interesting more so by far than Canon-Defeat at Endor, Warlordism, Thrawn, Civil War and Disaster, Palpatine' last rise-victory in sights again, defeat, disaster, Daala-bungles everything still standing-she does kill the warlords though, campaign and counter campaign until final surrender signed. Palleon tells the moffs hey let's not be fanatical idiots and fight until Bastion is ashes and we're all dead if we make peace and if and when the NR is destroyed/collapses on itself/becomes rotten we'll rise again, sits out part of the Vong war then joins helps turn the tide, integrates with GA, key role in ending GCWII, then Victory without war until the Sith Imperial war and the Fel Empire
    FO-Empire defeated in a day, hardliners retreat, don't die off in 30 years-stupid, stupid, stupid.

    This really isn't even a question worth asking the Felpire is superior from a worldbuilding and storytelling perspective-the only people who would say otherwise are the people who hated the EU and we're glad when it was gone.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Uhm...where is the whole "The First Order is more evil than Krayt and the Galactic Empire combined" coming from?

    The Galactic Empire was never a font of moral ambiguity. And the One Sith were repeatedly shown as far far more evil than the Moffpire's soldiers (which is silly, IMHO). At least Hosnian Prime was another target, a military target.

    Alderaan was pacifists.

    I actually got banned from a forum for First Order cheering. Where is the visceral disgust coming from?

    It's just the Empire 2.0.

    Except, it's more interesting because it's a bunch of kids raised on a romanticized notion of what the Empire was. It's also basically Hydra and who doesn't love Hydra? I mean, even Captain America loves Hydra lately!

    *rimshot*
     
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  20. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Because it's not even pretending to be a legitimate government with interests in law and order, let alone power or expansion.

    They aren't even fighting to restore the Empire anymore.

    It's literally obsessed with vengeance and violence. There is not a shred of nobility to it. There is literally no future in it.

    In many ways they're worse than another Imperial group that is being overlooked; the Deep Core Imperials. Like the FO, they didn't sign the peace accords in Legends, and carried on fighting as the Second Imperium for another six years before the Ackbar and the Viscount cleared them out. And even then all they did was hide in the Maw and rebuild for a day when they could smash the concept of Republic once and for all.

    Opportunists who had no chance, not even a desire to restore the Empire when the Remnant began to regain traction as an ethical and acceptable second choice.

    Warlord Daala was still ready to break away and upset the status quo even when she was Chief of State - sending her ships back into hiding even when she herself went 'legitimate'. If she wasn't looking to overthrow the Alliance she was ready to launch a coup against the Imperial Head of State. Ignoring everything that Pellaeon had achieved, and happy to run a battle/election against Reige as much as Fel.

    At least Krayt and the One Sith intended to impose order. Their philosophy was closer to that of the Empire's than it was to that of the Sith under Krayt.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Well, I sympathize with the First Order much more than the Galactic Empire. The First Order die-hards were raised into the philosophy and know nothing else while the Centrists are a bunch of idealists rather than power hungry scum like the kind which forged the original Empire. In many ways, I find them more sympathetic than the Pellaeon Empire because that's just a tin pot dictatorship living off old glories they romanticize while denying the horrors involved. The First Order, by contrast, is an organization which believes passionately they were the good guys all along and believe it still.

    The Galactic Empire and Moffpire are evil.

    The First Order is tragically misguided. Even brainwashed.

    Then again, I really felt Finn's situation where he's been forced into his situation from day one as well as Casterflo--who I believe represents the kind of people roped into bringing the First Order into the galactic light.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    He put Fel as an important figure in the Empire of the Hand (in both Vision of the Future and Survivor's Quest)- The Empire of the Hand being the immediate ancestor of the Felpire.
     
  23. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Eh. I don't think you should be going that direction. Saying something has become a little too convoluted and it was time for a reboot is a lot different than hating it and being glad it was gone. I would say most people liked legends and still do. However many of them recognized it was time for a reboot to take place.
     
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  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I can't even imagine integrating 100 quadrillion sentients into the Sith order-which was Krayt's ultimate plan.
     
  25. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    Honestly I don't like both of them. I disliked everything about the first order and they don't make much sense anyway.
    The Fel empire Is in my opinion it's a glorification of dictature. The Fels are allways portrayed as being flawless good guys who can't do wrong. It started with Jag who basically told everyone demoraxy is bad, dictature is good and it was presented as to be the right thing. He became ruler at a very young age and despite being just a soldier never seemed to have problems with it. Than he gets Jaina and his family the force as if they wheren't already blessed enough. And every descendant of him is a good person and a strong Jedi. In my opinion every single Fel is a Mary Sue.
    I think there was a potential for intersting stories. Instead we get the Empire as good guys, as pure good guys.
    And that feels wrong for me. In my opinion dictature and inheritance of absolute power is an abomination that needs to end, not something to glorify as the best way of governing.

    Please don´t get me wrong I certainly don´t hate the Fel Empire but I think it´s a missed oportunity. I would have liked if they would present it to us more grey, more intersting. Don´t just have some evil Moffs but show us the political struggles. Show us the Fels having to make harsh descisions that have real consequenses. Or discuss the problems of this system, have Marasiah´s heir be not be good at his job and so on.
    Cause I really dislike the fact that a theocratic dictature is presented to us as the best thing ever happened to the galaxy.
     
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