Lit The Empire's future: the First Order, or the Fel Dynasty & Imperial Knights?

I definitely do not hate either approach. I really don't like how the Empire falls apart so quickly and it just seems way too easy for the New Republic and the Galaxy in the new canon, but for the purposes of a new trilogy and having good onscreen villains I do think the First Order is the way to go.

I do prefer the Fel Empire like route somewhat as far as the sequence of event after Endor go. I would have probably went with a long drawn out war against the Imperial Remnant and the various warlords. I think out of desperation on the Imperial side, things would have been a bit more costly on the civilians of the Galaxy. Eventually, a peace treaty is made and a diminished Empire with a new Emperor would exist. Then the New Republic would be more of an military or economic alliance like we see in some Old Republic eras of the Legends universe. Maybe they get to team up and defeat some new threat, but that's just me. Make for a nice mix of government types working together.

 

You are wrong about that, since the immediate ancestor of the Felpire was the ImperialRemnant. We don't know, what happed to the EotH, if it was destroyed by one of the dangers of the Unknown Regions or absorbed by the Chiss Ascendancy. And Zahn also didn't have Luke Skywalker put Jagged Fel on the throne of the Imperial Remnant, which later turned into the Felpire.

Zahn actually depicted the Imperial Remnant as an oligarchy of Moffs with Pellaeon as SupremeCommander, with a lot of, but not complete control. Even during the NJO he has to listen to them, when they call him back after the destruction of Ithor. So I wouldn't exactly call the IR a tinpot-dictatorship, because Pellaeon isn't much of a tinpot-dictator.

Charlemagne:
If I look at the map in the EA during the time of the Legacy-comics, it shows, that Roan Fel's Empire-in-Exile is exactly within the borders of the original IR and Felpire. Your claim, that the EmInEx is just a breakaway of the Felpire is wrong. The EmInEx IS the original Felpire.

 

Yes, that's what I mean. The Moffs wanted to take charge themselves, and instead were betrayed by Krayt who more or less held them for ransom. Onboard every Imperial vessel, there was at least one Sith (epic pun, right guys...) terrorizing the bridge crew.

I disagree. The legitimate government of the Fel Empire is the one under Emperor Roan Fel. He IS the Fel Empire, even says so himself. Its kind of in the name too. The core of the old Imperial territories are the worlds that sided with Fel. The rest of the planets, as usual, just side with the power of the day and don't care who's in charge as long as they're allowed to keep their own local devolved powers. Krayt, his One Sith and the Moff Council was that power since the GA capitulated. Also we have no idea if some surrendered GA Troops weren't just handed some spare Imperial armor and told to patrol the area. We know a lot of the GADF vessels went over to Krayt's Empire's local patrol divisions and defected to Stazi as soon as the Krayt-Moff Empire started to crumble. Legacy Campaign Guide specifically notes the bit about the GA Army folding into the wider Krayt Empire one.

How would a bunch of Sith remove ten thousand Jedi? Especially with the Brotherhood of Darkness shattered and its remnants extinct. Did Palpatine honestly think his clone troopers and pilots could stand against opponents like the Jedi?

We're actually taking Legends into account, so Alderaan was really an isolated instance where Tarkin did what he wanted without supervision from the Emperor. The actual Imperial government denied any involvement. There are quite a few 'okay' Imperials. Sure, they're not good guys, but they're far from evil. Like I've said, I'd rather take the morally ambiguous Assad over the clearly evil ISIS. Same reason why I'd prefer the authoritarian Imperial Germany over the obviously evil and totalitarian Nazi Germany. The Empire in Legends was a combination of several aspects. While the aesthetics were mostly Nazi Germany, it was mostly COMPNOR and guys like Tarkin that took after the Nazi regime. The rest of the Empire was very varied.

 

Well, we know that the Galactic Alliance, per the old LECG from WOTC, instituted numerous reforms that led to it maintaining a successful and prosperous peace for almost a century before Krayt arose. The main one was the compromise on member defense forces. A balance was stuck. Members could maintain fleets, provided they paid taxes that supported a GA controlled federal fleet. In addition, member world fleets were tasked for local GA duties, keeping their fleets close to home.

The Triumvirate was another compromise, designed to prevent one leader from asssuming too much power. IIRC, the Senate had broad powers, but tempered by this executive body.

--Adm. Nick

 

Folks who keep saying the First Order, "lacks depth" I kind of have to chuckle at. How many years did we get in the comics to explore the Felpire? How many years has The First Order been around? Oh yes, one. We're also not going to be able to get a more complex look at life at the First Order until 2019, when the writers can be sure what they will write won't be contradicted by the sequel trilogy.

It has nothing to do with the concept of the First Order, or it's execution, we are not *going* to be able to look at the life, attitudes, and deeper aspects of the First Order for at least another two years. It's not physically possible.

 

Yeah, how does the FO even "work?" Are the younger officers raised from birth like the Stormies? Do they even get paid? How's the health care? Does the FO have civilians?

I can't answer this question until I see more stats.

 

I'd like to say this is a really interesting conversation Havoc123 and the most entertaining one I've had about Star Wars in years so kudos. It's been a long time since we've actually got something deep like comparing the benefits of alternative political systems in the GFFA(s).

The thing is, I think the Legends Empire is getting some nostalgia value because I started with Marvel comics version of them and the West End Games RPG as my introduction in the setting. The moral ambiguous Empire of the books was far and away from the version you're describing with other media (which was still Legends canon) doubling down on their evil. Even the books often made it clear they were less Imperial Germany than Nazi Germany on glittersum.

If you want to blame Alderaan on Grand Moff Tarkin, we're still left with Zahn having made them destroy Camaas, which is basically Alderaan except even more AlderaanTM. There's still all the slavery, genocide, and general cruelty for its cruelty sake. All of those Imperial superweapons were going to be used. I don't think the Canon Empire is substantially different so far and the First Order is any worse. People have projected a lot of "it is nothing but vengeance and destruction" but General Hux's speech is about reclaiming the galaxy as well as establishing order. Lady Carlise is a woman who seems to be a fairly typical Baroness (GI Joe) figure. The build up in Empire's End also is making an Empire which is efficient and removed of corruption rather than some kind of weird Dark Side death cult.

In short, the First Order is meant to be a cartoon set of fascists just like Hydra or Cobra. I don't think it's meant to be susbtantially worse than the Empire of Old like, say, the Yuuzhan Vong were. The major difference is it brainwashes its soldiers versus using clones but is there any real moral difference there?

Basically, I assumed the First Order was basically a "public" bunch of backwater worlds ala the Imperial Remnant with the Unknown Regions being where the majority of its power works. The addition of the Centrists means it could actually be a substantial chunk of the galaxy.

 

Well this is what I was hoping for! Great posts all-around in here, I'll have to comment later.

As for the origins of the FO, I agree it's likely there was a rewrite. It might have originally been something like 8 public sectors and a hidden 200 sectors in the unknown regions.
Now, there's still those hidden sectors in the unknown regions, but the "public" sectors are the dozens/hundreds scattered throughout the galaxy where the Centrists succeeded in seceding from the Republic, and that was all the Senate knew of the FO until the Hosnian Cataclysm.

 

My answer to all six questions is "neither". Give me the Imperial Remnant under Pellaeon, up until Denning took over. Forget the Fels ever existed.

So, you know, a do-over for the post-NJO.

 

My general opinion is I'm really enjoying the First Order for a number of reasons and like them better than the Legends version of the Empire. I do think I have a much different perspective on them, though, than I think the majority of people do. I'm generally thinking of the First Order as Hydra and in the most literal sense. It's a cartoonish group of fascists with cool uniforms, plans for world-domination, and colorful villains. Basically, a rebirth of the original Galactic Empire but with the ridiculousness dialed up but not to the 11. More like 7 or 8.

I prefer the canon timeline's history of the Empire because the New Republic being unable to "beat" the Empire is something which really dragged down the timeline as a whole. The Nazis didn't continue fighting for thirty years after they were defeated and having the entire thing fall apart makes a more interesting timeline, I think. We avoided the "Warlord of the Week" scenario in this case while keeping the Imperial Remnant as a concept.

I admit, though, I don't actually see THAT much difference between the First Order and the Post-Endor Imperials, though. I basically see the new canon as very similar to the Legends universe but re-imagined. It has the same "The Empire returns" feel but it's all the same Imperial Returns movement than hundreds of smaller ones.
I wouldn't be surprised, personally, if we do get "peace with the First Order" as an ending for the Remnant, though.

 

I actually feel the opposite way. I always thought that it took way too long for the Rebel Alliance and later the New Republic to take down the Empire after the Emperor's death. In ROTJ we see celebrations all over the Galaxy at the Emperor's death. Even on Coruscant. With popular support all over the Galaxy it should have been easy for the Rebel Alliance to strike Coruscant swiftly and declare the Empire to finished and re-establish the Republic. Like they did in the new canon. I get the story potential of having the Empire still around to present future threats. But having Palpatine's Empire last a full 15 years after his death to menace the New Republic makes the victory at Endor a bit less powerful as there were many, many years of mop-up work left. ROTJ is supposed to be the victory. The end of the Sith forever and the fall of their evil Empire. The Chosen One fulfills his destiny after two decades of darkness and destroys the Dark Lord of the Sith. And as the Sith die so does the Empire of darkness that they've built. More mythic in my opinion.

 

Say if the allies got lucky and Hitler & most of his inner circle died in a train crash in 1942. Would WW2 ended in a year? Probably not.

 

Actually, probably. The momentum for the war was tied very much to their situation. In Legends, everyone seemed fanatically devoted to the Empire. In the canon timeline, it seems the Empire had spent the majority of its good will and was outright hated by the public at large. Which makes sense as the destruction of Alderaan and dissolution of the Senate were meant to be the Sith dropping their mask.

One thing which benefits the canon timeline is the fact it makes the events in the movies feel more important as the EU often tried to outdo them.

Palpatine and Vader never actually treated the Rebellion as insignificant. They considered it to be extremely dangerous, widespread, and a threat to the Empire as a whole. The Rebel FLEET is at Endor but the Rebellion as a whole was full of support both in the Senate and galaxy wise.

Of course, the RPG sourcebook stated the Empire needed the Death Star because it actually was unable to patrol and dominate the galaxy with military force. Wasn't that the purpose of the Tarkin Doctrine? To rule through fear of force than force itself/

The Empire ruled the galaxy through the Imperial fleet and an aura of invincibility. It garrisoned whole worlds with 2,000 soldiers in prefabricated garrisons. It's important to realize 25,000 Imperial Star Destroyers isn't actually all that many.

 

That was a problem with authors throwing numbers around they didn't think through. The FO are so cartoony and downright lame I can't understand how anyone would like them. As for the away outdoing the movies what's wrong with that? Should the EU do small scale stories and bend backwards to make sure the stakes aren't at movie levels? If that was the case than I wouldn't be an EU fan.

Anyway I miss legends and have zero enthusiasm for the NuCanon and I find others enthusiasm to be disturbing.

 

Which they didn't. The Empire crumbled within, what, 3 years of dissolving the Senate?

How is the First Order ANY less serious than the original Galactic Empire? It seems more, honestly.

 

That kind of... I guess I can call it a "contribution"... is why I don't bother trying to make threads like this, even though I'm actually quite fascinated by the parallels and divergences between the different continuities' ideas. (Though I should note, mind you, that both sides have guilty individuals in this regard).

 

Evilness doesn't have any correlation with seriousness.

 

Evilness doesn't have any correlation with seriousness.[/quote]

The First Order massacres an innocent village, blows up a planet, and attacks a cantina

The Galactic Empire massacres Jawas, kills Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, and blows up a planet.

Yes, I can see how people why much more terrified of the First Order.

 

Maybe just realize not all of us are as hung up over the old EU? I grew up on Dark Empire, the NJO, and Star Wars games. I love those stories, and the best bits of them will always be around. I'm excited for the new films and a chance to keep the best of the old, while seeing something a bit more polished.

North Korea sounds like a Saturday morning cartoon villain that is nonetheless a very real, and horrifying apparatus of evil. None more so than to its own people.

People "like" the First Order, because it's an evil that's instantly recognizable to Millennials. The kind of hate and spite that drove Bin Laden and his cronies to murder thousands, knowing full well it would have a negligible impact on America's overall function as a state. The kind of hate that's driving religious and ethnic purges right now. Every. Single. Day.

I think there's this tendency to view evil, the dark side, the devil, what have you, as this sort of slick operator that knows exactly what it's doing. It can be. But I also liked C.S. Lewis' take on evil as a stupid bully. It doesn't do any good to pretend the kind of thuggery of the First Order is anything unique in our world, if anything, I find this new First Order as a viscous rogue state, even more plausible than the aristocratic Rome Empire/Nazi Reich we saw in the OT.

 

I think one problem the First Order is having with fans is in addition to competing with the Legends EU, there's a lot of people who are guessing what the organization is from The Force Awakens and a relative tiny collection of supplements. I do think the First Order works very well as a 21st century villain, though. It's an ideology-driven organization which can stand for ISIS, a revived Russian imperialism, and even the United States of America shifting toward fascism (which is a fear both sides of the political spectrum have expressed).

Really, I like the First Order because it seems a very YOUNG organization which is driven by a large amount of revolutionary zeal without much understanding of reality. General Hux shouldn't be in charge of the Galactic Empire's military but he is because the older generation has either killed itself off, been purged, or been replaced by nepotism.

Kylo Ren and Hux are really Imperial cosplayers who have access to armies.

Edit:

And the scary thing about the First Order being the Google+ verison of the Galactic Empire is that it might genuinely be more dangerous. The First Order doesn't have the experience of Tarkin or the other Elder Statesmen but they understand technology in a way the older organization does not. They also have corrected flaws which bureaucracy could not. They're not as attached to tradition or the apparatus of government either. They'd have blown up Coruscant without a second thought because it doesn't represent anything to them--their beliefs begins and ends with the Empire, not the Republic into the Empire.