Characters The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku - Happy Life Day Sir Christopher Lee! (27 May)

You know I have a fic out there Called Grievous Crime.
Sort of a screenplay thing like a few others.

Although my Dooku here might be a bit more evil and twisted than most people are used to or like. Also he is sort of working against Palpy, which I debated for a while. The idea was sparked in the GG Fan Club. I asked about Dooku's relation with GG and then decided to figure it out in a fic. But it's just another way of looking at things. What some might call a (two-demensional Character) Although I NEVER would call any form of the Count that.
It's mostly about Grievous cuz I wanted to dable in his character for a while.
A lot of authors like to stay with one view of a character when writing them. I don't really. I like to explore all aspects available.
For instance:
Grievous Crime-Shows a more standard villain Dooku and Grievous.
Palpy's Secret Lust- A much more tragic view of Dooku. (Although he doesn't factor into it much in the way of a speaking role.)
I really should try out a more Christopher Lee-like Dooku fic some time.
There are several ways to look at any SW character:
Tragic
Standard Story (Not a Bad Thing really)
Insane
Conflicted
Romantic

I would say Dooku falls into Tragic, Romantic and Conflicted. Although one can view him as a storybook style villain too. He has everything.
Cape
Black outfit
Good Title
Nifty weapon/Mystical Powers
Evil voice
Calm reactions

CW Cartoons paint him in this way. It's actually kind of cool. The more Sithy Side of Dooku.
Funny that he and Peter Cushing were in Star Wars at different times.

 

Here's what I want to know:

WHY DID DOOKU TURN?

HOW DID DOOKU TURN?

rabid for an answer

 

Stover's novelization paints Dooku as a sociopath. Able only to see people as Assets or Threats.

He didn't understand friendship, or a slew of emotions that I can't quite remember - joy, and love were among them. It was said that he was this way from the very beginning.

Just from that, I'm guessing that Palps noticed, and offered to train him in the ways of Sith, and Dooku agreed. No big turn or anything, just an offer to learn the dark side and an acceptance.

Of course, I don't know much, so feel free to contradict me.

 

Well, Dooku is an aristocrat, that much is certain. I would say the Dark Side offered him more of the control he craved. Add to that a disillusionment with the Jedi and the Republic and that's a recipe for a fall.

This is all broad outline, of course. If I'm to post more in-depth, I will need time to ponder this.

 

In Labyrinth of Evil it is mentioned by his old Master (Yoda) that the man had always craved power and more than what the Jedi could offer (sound familiar? Similar to Anakin). The Darkside was another side of the Force he was wanting to know about. He had seen the holocron that could only be seen by Masters (mentioned in Legacy of the Jedi) and I believe he saw that it offered more power. Palps knowing and being experienced, was a doorway into another realm that he had always been curious about. His first Master was an expert on the studies of the history of the Sith (mentioned in Legacy of the Jedi).

Why...Palps offered him that leverage that could perhaps help him rebuild the Republic as it should be. As for what ladylaurel18 said, yep I can see him becoming that after or right before Qui-Gon's death. He knew the corruption was becoming uncontrollable in the Senate and that his old apprentice's death was a final straw (which Yoda mentions in Labyrinth of Evil to Obi-Wan).

Dooku turned to achieve more power and the only way to do that was to turn. And more why (possibly)...was because of his lust for more (ironic...he has that incommon with Anakin) and the need/want for more. It might have started out in the hopes of assisting the Republic back on to its feet, but became more personal as the need for more drove him further and deeper into the Darkside's control.

You do not control the darkside...it controls you. Well I always believed it in that manner (in my humble opinion).

When... Yoda mentions that he left the Order after Qui's death (from Labyrinth of Evil)...sooo I would assume he fully turned shortly afterward. He might have already been drawn to the dark path (this I can see) because of his studying it through the holocron.

How...well he gave into his lust for more and of course when you 'give' in...it is only a matter of time (once again - Anakin as a visual/auditory reference).

I think it ironic...extremely so...that those two characters though YEARS apart had similar failures. The want for more power. The need to be greater than they already are/were. Fascinating...

This was all my 2 cents (besides the referencing from those books). Hopefully it helps some...

 

Stover's novelization paints Dooku as a sociopath.

I remember this. ...........
But for purposes of writing a fan fic, I think we NEED to expand on these characters. The idea of Dooku having a bit of mental issue is an interesting one for sure.

I remember my fic about Palpatine, "A chance to change" was basically a study on a Palpy that had MPD/DID. It was interesting to write but I had trouble getting some points across.

Anyhoo, back to Dooku....

I think the idea of a sociopath is actually well thought out. What we need to see here is that people with such mental or social dissorders in this case, ARE NOT INSANE!!!
. They simply need help.

A lot of people see the word Mental and think that means crazy or nuts.
No, it just means something either psycologically or biologically or biochemically is not working within their brain. (Did I say that right? )

In the case of Dooku, we have a very smart and (dare I say.... )well dressed man with some good money. Who also happend to be Force sensitive. Now taking the idea of his assets and threats vision of things, he probably viewed his power as just a tool and means to his dream. No doubt feeling controlled by the Jedi who tried to place restrictions on the use of a gift or tool.

When Palpy approached him, Dooku probably saw the chance to fully use his talent. And he viewed anyone in the way as a threat.
His mention of Qui-gon in AOTC is not one of memory or "remember that one, I liked him" discussion with Obi-wan. Rather I think he saw a weak spot in Kenobi that could be used to gain power.

That's just one way of looking at things.
Say Dooku is healthy, and we have another story.
But I think people get hung up on mental dissabilities being a sign for insane.

LLL, I don't think we'll ever know WHY. (That is until GL decides to sell another book and back up some story on the origin of Dooku that pays no real homage to the character in the films nor Christopher Lee's masterful work. )

There is an air of mystery with Dooku and Palpatine. We are welcome to explore it ourselves but that mystery is a key in what makes these villains so fantastic and enjoyable to watch. (Which I can do because I now have ROTS and every other Star Wars movie....The Saga is mine! )

I even totally enjoy Christopher Lee's cameo as our charming Dooku.
(However sad it may be )

I get a kick out of watching someone like Dooku and saying: "Why?" not for an answer exactly, just for fun. It's nice to ponder a villain's motive.

GL did say on the DVD that Palpatine is motivated by pure lust for power. Being a classical man, I might agree. (But LLL is slowly turning me )

I have yet to know what he thought of Dooku's last gasps.
Sadly any comments will simply rest on why the scene is a big step for Anakin. While I agree it is, there will be sadly no mention of Dooku I predict.

 

Thank you for that. I have a social disorder as well as being clinically labeled as a manic depressant. I don't consider myself insane, crazy maybe but not insane!


To piggy back upon what I mentioned earlier... (forgot it until after the dew hit my system) I believe the Count was a man who folks had to work at to become trusted by him. Trust was something that had to be earned I believe. I'm the same way in a sense. You can't juz 'become' my friend. TRUST must be earned not something to be handed out on a platter. I believe he was that way. And the 'assests' had to be literally worked at. As for threats. I also believe in that somewhat. Most folks are a threat to him. They are in his way to rebuilding the Republic or in the way for him to learn/achieve full power. (similar to Palps prob when he was younger)

Why he bacame a Sith could be speculated, but given the info we have read in LoE and DR (Dark Rendezvous) It's kind'a easy to determine that it was due to wanting/needing more power and to also rid the corruption of the Republic.

I think as the years went by his wants/lusts grew which affected his point of view on things/people. He slowly became the sociopath that Stover pictures him as. He was not always that way I believe. Stover only showed us the 'present' Dooku not the younger man of being an apprentice and Knight/Master. We'll never know his true personality unless (like Palpy560 stated) more books are written or more info provided by starwars.com or the man himself (GL).

If more enters me brain, I'll be a posting later.

(this is Kynstar)

 

"GL did say on the DVD that Palpatine is motivated by pure lust for power. Being a classical man, I might agree. (But LLL is slowly turning me )"

LOL! Oh, sure, I agree. Palpatine IS motivated by pure lust for power. But stopping there is like saying the universe is made up of atoms. There's SOOO much more about it to be said. That explanation is a statement of fact, but it leaves out a whole Mount Everest of information.

I don't know that I buy the strict sociopath explanation for Dooku. Palpy, yes, Dooku, no. I know the books try to explain it that way, but there are glaring inconsistencies that don't fit, that they are ignoring. And that really creases me.

Palpatine fits, Dooku doesn't.

 

If he is...it was towards the last couple years of his life. I don't see him as such either, cuz I'd think Yoda would have smacked him down for it if he was in his younger years. I don't see Yoda allowing his students (even when they later become Knights and Masters) having that type of attitude.

Palps is more inclined to be one, I agree there with LLL. If Dooku was...then (as I mentioned a few lines ago) it was close to the end of his life. But if you read DR...(which was not to long before RotS) he didn't seem like one there...

I wonder if Stover was bleeding Palps over into Dooku a lil there?

 

hmmm....
Well, I was just trying to work that theory out is all.

Actually, yeah Palpy fits the bill.

Trouble is that there is so little to work with.
Maybe MS had little he could do with Dooku and had to borrow.
There is a piece in that same novel that goes deeper though. He does seem to want Obi-wan as an Apprentice.

There is nothing in the films to really support a diagnosis. To my knowledge he never says anything like "That is no use to me" Nothing to suggest an attitude of social disfunction on his part in any way. If anything he is totally use to social settings and behavior. And if Jocasta was indeed his girl, he has no problem with deep connections.

Good point Kyns, perhaps by ROTS he could have been going down that road. Perhaps Palpatine actually WAS rubbing off on him. The Dooku of the Jedi Order may have been all but lost at that point. The war may have poisoned him a bit. Perhaps that's why he wanted out. He didn't like what he was turning into. He didn't like his train of thought.

But Palpy did. Which begs several questions about our other friend.
If Dooku wanted out, Palpy wanted him out. Cuz Palpatine is used to that behavior and Dooku isn't.

Honestly, I've always seen Dooku as a more pure version of Darth Vader's character arc. The way Darth Vader should have been....evil. Dooku just seems much more Sithy to me. Because he doesn't seem to have anything to pull him back. Maybe he could have been helped, but Palpatine killed him first. Even so, Dooku never betrayed him like Vader, which suggests a deeper dedication to the Dark Side.

If there is an afterlife, and in Star Wars a version of Heaven or Hell, Light or Dark, I wonder what Dooku's ultimate fate would be? Would he become one with the Light or the Dark side? Reason I ask is that although he seems more dedicated to evil than Vader was, would he have a chance at peace because he realized his wrong upon death?

 

I don't think you can suddenly "become" a sociopath unless you develop a brain disease. That kind of thing's a hardwiring problem, like being gay or being a pedophile. "It don't come on sudden-like!"

Excuse me. Not that I am calling being gay a problem! Just the other 2 things.

But these kinds of things are present from early in life, or not at all. As far as I know. Usually.

 

I totally agree and it does mention in DR that he was getting tired of it all (and a hint at it in the RotS book). He wanted to 'retire' (as RotS book states), this I can see. Like when he told Asajj off that he did NOT want to take out Palps and become the Master. He was far too old and no longer (if he had it to begin with...) ambition to take the younger Sith Lord out. Which right there sets him apart from Anakin. Cuz in RotS when Anakin is talking to Padme on Mustafar he states he could take out Palps and wanted too so him and her could rule the galaxy.

Yep yep, if you've read DR that is definitely the reason why he (Palps) sent Obi and Anakin after Master Yoda because 1)he suspected Dooku might falter and 2)he knew that Dooku dispised Anakin and sending the youth would tip the older man's temper and he knew that Dooku would believe that Yoda secretly had Obi and Anakin follow the old troll.

Nope he never did, he skirted the younger man's orders sometimes, but never strayed.

Good question...I'd so want him to return to the Light, but I have to hesitate in saying that he did. Even though he wanted out...it was too late and he was in deep.

Perhaps the Jedi Council should have sent Jo to him perhaps that old bat could have brought him back to the Light!! Love does strange things...but since it had been years it might not have made a dif. And probably wouldn't have. A pity...

Hehehe I have a spot of that in Decisions of Darkness a story me and my old Master are writing right now in The Saga Forum. I'm sooo enjoying it!

I agree, but 13 yrs isn't sudden like he has had 13 yrs to slowly become it. But I think perhaps that is one of the reasons why he wanted to quit. Besides the continual battling that was going on. I think he saw he was starting to behave like Sid and didn't like it. Also he saw that what he wanted the Republic to become was not going to happen. Sid had other ideas, though he was still excited about being head of the new Sith Order...but I think deep down inside him that he knew it wasn't going to happen.

 

Oh man, I have a LOT of posts to catch up on!

 

Yeah, to Kyns again. You know, I think maybe he knew all along he was gonna end up dying. One of those things that happens before you die, they say, is that you sort of feel it comming. I think after Anakin Pushed him away like that. (You know, that one push back at the last section of the fight?)
He sort of knew it was gonna end. Just not exactly as he thought.

LLL, I agree, this stuff doesn't just happen.
But Palpy has an effect on people.

 

Top of the day to you, you Dooku loving woman, you.
My goodness, the things that happen when you don't look in here for a few days...

Dooku and Jocasta...is this canon or what?
Wasn't too sure about the whole situation.

Still think Dooku should have had some deleted scenes, you know there had to be more of that fight scene between him and Obi and Anakin.

Really liking the discussion on here, Kynstar, I want to use you knowledge (for evil, of course)

 

Yeppers! I'd assume it is due to the fact it was discussed in the Star Wars: Insider magazine by the actress who plays Jo.

 

Nifty!!!
Which Insider was that in? I'd like to look that up and read it sometime...

Later

 

Hey Leona! Yep yep it does make me happy!

I'd think Palps would have delivered the line up of his goals for 'correcting' the Republic's wrongs (minus a few details perhaps until later when Dooku was fully enthralled/under the dark side's power) and giving the spill of 'with your help we can both fix the corruption and 'right' the wrongs' but I dunno... would that be an awesome first challenge?? Write that particular scene and use your own opinions on how it was done?


Oh as a piggy back on Dooku's 2nd Paddy...

Some info about her bio on starwars.com:

Komari Vosa was once a promising Padawan learner, apprenticed to the legendary Jedi Master Dooku. As a student, she showed a surprisingly aggressive temperament for a member of the Jedi order, and she was especially skilled in using paired lightsabers.

Vosa was with Dooku on Galidraan when the Jedi all but vanquished the Mandalorian ranks. She was personally responsible for killing 20 of the seasoned warriors. Though the Jedi would grow to regret the conflict, Dooku voiced his admiration of Vosa's abilities and predicted an eventful future for the young Padawan.

Thus, it came as a betrayal that Dooku eventually denied her the chance to undergo the trials to achieve Knighthood. Dooku and others had noticed a growing infatuation in the young girl for her accomplished Master. This and other instabilities in her character prompted the Jedi Council to end her training. Enraged, Vosa fled Coruscant and joined a group of Jedi sent to rescue the people of Baltizaar from the depredations of the deadly Bando Gora cult. Many Jedi fell in that mission, and Vosa was presumed dead.

See the poor girl obviously didn't realize that his heart was only for Jo!

edit:
And for hyperspace_police (and others who wonder about it... )

It was in the #75 issue with General Grievous on the cover. It was at the bottom of page 36. And I quote from Alethea McGrath (actress that played Jocasta Nu) and the interviewer a Peter Roberts:

"He (referring to George Lucas) was very gentle and considerate. He came to me in the dressing room and said, 'Look, I'm very sorry. They always tell me I write too much, and I've got to cut this speech of yours. Can we cut this line and this line? I do apologize.'"

Most actors lament that some of their best performances vanish during editing. Originally, as Obi-Wan studies the bust of Count Dooku, Nu explained a little more of the Count's history to the inquisitive Jedi. McGrath reveals that the original version of this scene shed light on both her character and Count Dooku.

"It was a lovely bit," She says. "I got quite sentimental about it because (our characters had) been in love at one stage. I was almost tearful, you know. I touched his bronze face and thought of happy times, and I ended up by saying, 'It was sad that he turned to evil.'"



And from the AotC novel:

The old woman smiled and walked past him to the bust of Count Dooku. "He has a powerful face, doesn't he?" she commented, her quiet tone taking the tension out of the meeting. "He was one of the most brilliant Jedi I have had the privilege of knowing."

"I never understood why he quit," Obi-Wan said, following Jocasta Nu's look to the bust. "Only twenty Jedi have ever left the Order."

"The Lost Twenty," Jocasta Nu said with a profound sigh. "And Count Dooku was the most recent and the most painful. No one likes to talk about it. His leaving was a great loss to the Order."

"What Happened?"

"Well, one might say he was a bit out of step with the decisions of the Council," the Archivist replied. "Much like your old Master, Qui-Gon."

Even though Obi-Wan had just been thinking the same thing, somewhat, to hear Jocasta Nu speak the words so definitively caught him off guard, and painted Qui-Gon in a more rebellious light than he had ever considered. He knew that his former Master had his moments, of course, the greatest of those being the confrontations conc

 

A fic about Dooku's seduction?

I would love love love to try this out.
But I am rather busy with my other fics at the moment.
Perhaps a one or two-post viggie?

 

Oh I wasn't meaning for it to be a whole story! I figured it'd be a viggie or a 1 to 2 poster viggie.

Though it being a story would rock! LukeSkywalker_2001 and I did a lil bit on it for her "Notes" that she has been doing. It turned out to be a 9 pager I think...if not a lil longer. We were both taken back by the length!

 

I don't have time for a big fic now.
I have sooooo many works in progress.
I read that Notes. It was well done.
Most of the Notes are awesome.

The most I could do is a viggie about it right now.
Maybe in da future......

 

I don't have time for a big fic either. But that would be a fascinating one to do!!

Maybe someday ...

I have to ask: Does THAT sound like a sociopath to you?? I don't buy it. How do you go from that kind of an attitude to being prejucided and cruel and all of these things Dooku was said to become? This character has no internal consistency, and LFL has really screwed him up with this EU ... Doodoo.



Heh heh ... all this time I thought Palpy was the hard one character to figure out. No ... it's Dooku!!!

 

Dooku was in it sooooo little. 40 minutes left of Episode II and 2 minutes of ROTS.
Honestly, I don't know much about sociopaths.
I really can't coment but to say it might make sense.

The EU is mostly (MOSTLY) hogwash.
Except for Dark Redesvous (Sp?)
Clone Wars (Vol. 1 and 2)
and LOE

I don't know what Dooku's story is.
But I still just love him.