Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Mar 1, 2018.
"Dark Empire's Jedi Princess" sounds like a good name for the entire sequel trilogy.
8 damn days.
It's killing me.
Fan Moments for me that I Know Won't Happen.
1. Ben gets a Sith name. (Unlikely)
2. Ben gets a Sith name and it's Darth Caedus. (Even more unlikely)
3. Mortis gets mentioned. (Less unlikely than 1)
4. End-Credits Scene with Abeloth and/or Typhojem. (More unlikely than 1, 2 and 3 put together and multiplied by each other.)
Fan Moments for me that I Would Really Really Like To Happen
1. Snoke is confirmed to be a Palpatine clone in a villainous rant by said Palpatine.
That is all.
*reverts back to hiding*
I kind of disagree on the Lucas part of this. I think he pretty clearly did bow to fan outrage over time in the prequels especially. But I strongly agree with the thrust of your point about Disney. I really like TFA, and TLJ is probably my second favourite Star War, but the sheer reactiveness of present day Lucasfilm annoys me. They just *feel* like they're terrified of losing fan love rather than sticking to their guns and executing a plan. That doesn't just mean the TROS rumors which sound like they're caving to some of the anti-TLJ online backlash, but in general the way they seem to switch plans so regularly. "Rogue One is a hit! Lots more Star Wars stories! Solo is a flop! No more Star Wars stories!" etc. It is tiring at a certain point.
At the end of the day, they are a business. I think it's understandable that they're reacting to the money and try to tailor their decisions accordingly. In a perfect world we'd have a studio like Disney or Sony be completely altruistic and decisive and make high brow art, but we have to settle for this.
I made a rather massive post on reddit last week discussing what I believe to be Palpatine's Master Plan based on a combination of speculation, some (semi-credible) leaks, and every single bit of canon evidence I can find (and I have been researching/absorbing nucanon EU material for months)...
This may seem like a silly question, but it's quite long and may be invalidated (or validated) very soon. Given that the time of speculation is nearly over, would people still want to see it reposted here? I don't think I've put this much thought into something since the Clone Wars retcons/timeline back in 2013/2014.
(Naturally, I will spoiler tag it, as it does tie closely to rumors, though only in parts.)
I'd love to see it reposted here.
Very well, here I go. Edit: Final warning. Rumors of leaks are in this too. I try not to focus on them as much, but they are part of this. It's a hybrid of every bit of info I could find up to last week. If you want to stay completely unspoiled from the film, don't read it.
I have written theories here a few times as ideas have popped into my head. They have been based off of both incomplete leaks, rumors, EU concepts, and whatever canon bits I can scrounge up that point towards evidence of the final story arc. I believe that after all this time, we now have enough evidence to piece together the final plot. I am now going to do my best to write that out in as much detail as I can. Again, this will be based largely on a mix of canon information, evidence from the films, old and new EU material, old and new leaks, and my own speculation on a few specific points. I am trying to write this in a way that concretely lines up with what we know about the film, while still speculating on ideas and concepts that can be logically deduced based on evidence from the overall canon without necessarily requiring a direct reference in the film script itself. Some of these ideas may come off as elaborate and clunky (especially pertaining to exactly how Palpatine survived), but I do not believe they will need to be detailed in the film with long scenes of exposition to make sense, or even be true. I believe they can be implied and hinted at with only minor references and filled in by other sources later. These are my final theories until the film's release, and they have changed surprisingly little since news of Palpatine's return last April.
Without further ado, I believe this is Palpatine's Grand Master Plan for the final chapter of the entire saga.
As the heir of Darth Bane's Rule of Two, Palpatine sought power. However, he was not an ordinary Sith seeking to merely gain revenge against his Jedi foes and bask in darkness for the sake of it before passing on his power to another apprentice. Rather, he sought to destroy the rule of two and cement his own place as an ultimate eternal ruler of the Galaxy. He first joined the Sith, and learned much of the dark arts from his former master, Darth Plagueis, including the secrets of life and death. Did he perfect those techniques? Perhaps not when Anakin was first seduced, but this is a man who plays the long game. He took over Darth Bane's grand plan for revenge, killed his Master, took on multiple apprentices, lead the Clone Wars from both sides, and corrupted the Jedi's chosen one to become his own pawn as the ultimate insult to his enemies. He ruled the Republic, then reformed it into the ruthless Galactic Empire, dismantling its ties to democracy piece by piece over the course of several years, while still playing the role of a seemingly benevolent leader to much of the populous, merely trying to prevent another divided galactic war. He was patient and a tactical genius, and he was nearly undefeated until the Death Star II.
But there was more to his plans than we knew. He was aging and knew he could not live forever in his current body without greater abilities in the force, nor could he maintain eternal control with the Imperial Fleet as it existed, using remnants from the Old Republic and Clone Wars eras. It was here that he developed a plan known as "The Contingency" as it is detailed in the aftermath books, and it is from this that the majority of his plans after episode 6 begin to form. The rebellion rose. The children of the Jedi fought against him, and destroyed one of his intended weapons for galactic control. This was a setback, but far from the end. As the civil war continued (Episodes IV-VI), he continued developing a contingency for a way to increase his power, live beyond his current mortal existence, and strike back against both his own Empire and his enemies should the he be defeated.
Years before the Clone Wars, he had created an observatory on Jakku, and discovered a young boy named Gallius Rax to train, influence, and help guard this facility. This facility was designed to map out charts into the Unknown Regions where he had sensed the influence of great darkness, and the potential for even more power. He kept this plan secret from even Darth Vader himself, only visiting Rax once every few years to check up on the progress of the facility as it was being built. His interest in this region is also one of the key reasons why he allowed the Chiss Thrawn to come under his fold, as Thrawn had extensive knowledge of the Unown Regions, including knowledge on the Chiss Ascendancy, their routes through hyperspace, and hostile creatures in the regions like the Grysk. As routes into this region were formed, he gradually sent resources into it, including the Super Star Destroyer the Eclipse, and the early foundations of what will eventually become the Sith Fleet, based off of modified plans for the Imperial Class I star Destroyers with ultra compact Death Star laser technology. He kept his plans for these ships close to the chest and out of the eyes of most of his Imperial subordinates, as they would be his reserve fleet for a final power grab that would grant him even more absolute control than what the Death Star II alone would give him. This fleet would also take longer to build and perfect, and so would not be ready in time time to end the Galactic Civil War. In essence, this was his trump card, reserved for another time.
He learned of the hyperspace aliens we know as the navigators, and a species or even single force sensitive being which would be used to create what we came to know as Snoke. In time, they too would help to form the means to chart through the dangers of these uncharted regions, allowing him to expand his rule well beyond known space. The exact details of how he intended to use these resources while still the Emperor remains unknown, whether a plan for later or even a part of a post death contingency remains unknown, but ultimately, he would choose to adapt his plan as necessary, just as he did during the Clone Wars. Even if he lost one battle, it didn't mean he lost the war. This was always his modus operandi.
Before his end, he summoned Gallius Rax to him one final time, as depicted in the 3rd aftermath book, telling him to prepare to enact the Contingency soon if it should be necessary. He did not know he would "die", but he knew that he was taking a risk by bringing Luke before him. He knew there was a chance of failure, and so he moved his final pieces into place and began his ultimate plans for the final trilogy of the saga. He told Rax that an Empire that could not protect its Emperor was not one worth saving, and so the board must be wiped clean in the event of his defeat.
We know what happened next. The Death Star II was destroyed. Vader was redeemed. The rebellion won. Palpatine was defeated, but not destroyed. Did he die? Possibly, but it was not his end. The contingency has been enacted and had now begun.
A series of satellites were activated to wipe out crucial worlds, both Imperial and New Republic. Sentinels with Palpatine's face were seen instructing Imperial warlords. Gallius Rax stepped in to take over the fragmented Imperial Remnants and egged them into a final massive battle over Jakku, telling them it was for the sake of the Empire. In reality, Palpatine planned to activate a Sith planetary self destruct mechanism built into the observatory that would wipe out both the New Republic and Imperial Fleets, leaving only the resources he left in the Unknown Region intact and leaving the known Galaxy in chaos as both major powers would be crippled or even destroyed. This did not happen exactly as he had forseen, however, and an Imperial Admiral named Rae Sloane intercepted and killed Rax before he could activate Jakku's self-destruction. With his dying words, Rax told Sloane that her "First Order" was to take the surviving remnants and retreat into the unknown regions and survive to fight another day. She agreed to do this, and most of the remaining Imperial fleet vanished, meeting up with the Super Star Destroyer Eclipse she had detected was missing, and likely finding something akin to the navigators we see Snoke using to chart the regions for new hyperspace lanes.
The New Republic thrived for a time. Ben Solo was born. Luke traveled the Galaxy recovering Jedi relics like the Compass from the Emperor's own storage. The new Order was founded years later, and things seemed at peace. But it was in this time where Palpatine's plans adapted, becoming a twisted form of revenge to play out over an even longer period of time. His return would happen eventually, and would be decisive, swift, and absolute, but several pieces would need to be put in place for this to happen. It would take a generation to finally fully play out.
His remaining loyalists researched Cloning technology, perhaps even tied to their attempt to take and use the "Child" as featured in the Mandalorian, and used it on Snoke's species, creating a race of servants or puppets he could corrupt, influence, and use for his own ends. Perhaps he would take over their minds and literally use them as a puppet, possess them, or perhaps he would merely train them. It remains unknown, but they would be his means to adapt to the changing state of the Galaxy. It was from this that Snoke was born.
Palpatine likely survived via one of two methods, through using this cloning technology on himself and using something akin to essence transfer ALA Dark Empire, or by a Sith skill allowing him to access a realm akin to the World Between Worlds outside of time and space (in essence teleporting away from the DSII). The leaks leave enough ambiguity that the former is possible, while visual evidence of the explosion after his death points to the latter. If he did however gain access to the realm Ezra discovered, this presents an interesting possibility.
This is where I play with an older idea I had in more detail. Let us say he did escape to the World Between Worlds. There, he could see visions of a possible future where Ben and Rey rose to gain their power. Perhaps he saw a world without his return, and decided to change this future. Perhaps he even saw a world where Rey did not exist at all and decided to create a chosen one of his own. Seeing that he would need to create an offspring that rose at the same time as Anakin's grandchild did, he reached through time to create an offspring of his own, a "son" through an unsuspecting woman, similar to how it was once speculated he did with Anakin. He forsaw a possible world where this son would one day give birth to Rey, a key to his immortality. He even saw a vision of the end of Episode XI where he would gain youth through the power of the Dyad of Ben and Rey, needing to corrupt them for his own purposes. He influenced the past just like Ezra did, then chose to emerge in the future, at least 11 years after the OT, some time after Rey's birth. Once there, the next phase in his bid for immortality and Unlimited Power was enacted. Naturally, this is all blatant hypothetical speculation, but I think it would be the best way to fill in the gap should it turn out that Palpatine never died at all.
However he escaped death, whether via otherworldly means, or cloning of his own genetic material, he gathered his servants and resources to himself on Exegol. He pushed for the construction of the Sith Armada in this region, while simultaneously watching what had become of the Imperial Remnants. Using Snoke (via either possession, control, or training), he swept into the middle of and disrupted their leadership in a show of force, eventually kicking out or killing Rae Sloane and any other competitors, and creating the First Order as we came to know them. Now, he had both his front line forces (white stormtroopers) and his reserve forces (red sith troopers) to deploy and use.
Rey's parents were murdered by a Sith assassin acting under Palpatine's orders, but Rey herself was left alive, being hidden away until she had grown and awakened to her own power, becoming part of the future force Dyad he had forseen. Jakku was a harsh and cruel environment, perfect for raising someone who would be susceptible to Sith influence.
He targeted and nurtured Ben in the dark side from a distance, darkness taunting him even before the child's birth, and eventually speaking to him through relics like the compass Luke discovered (which Palpatine guided Luke to discover), and eventually the Vader mask. Through these means, his dark influence could be felt, barely detectable, even within the halls of Luke's new Order. When Ben learned that Vader was his real grandfather, Palpatine sized on this insecurity and made the final push to corrupt an embittered, insecure, and lonely Ben. His influence even tempted Luke to kill Ben to stop his rise, but only for a second, pushing Ben over the edge. It was too late. Ben destroyed the Order, and Luke's spirit was broken. Phase I of Palpatine's revenge was now complete, and the Jedi were stopped in their track once more.
The First Order became Palpatine's front line soldiers and his next tool to enact his revenge against his military enemies and their political leaders, Leia and the New Republic. They grew a fleet behind the scenes, and developed Starkiller Base at Snoke's (and therefor Palpatine's) bidding, acting almost entirely unseen in the shadows. Leia picked up on their influence, but it was too late, and neither she nor Luke realized that Snoke was connected to Palptine himself. Their fleet would remain separate from the Sith fleet, but their primary job had been accomplished. The New Republic Fleet was decimated in a single shocking blow. Phase II of his revenge was now complete, The New Republic was in tatters and the Galaxy was now being primed for his return and eternal rule.
Then, his final obstacle was defeated. Snoke (and Palpatine) still believed Luke was a thorn in his side to be dealt with. Luke Skywalker was uncovered and died in an act of self sacrifice. The last light side member of the old Jedi Order was gone. Leia's Resistance was all but destroyed, and the Galaxy was now under the First Order's control. Ben and Rey had been connected by these events, tying their powers together as they each grew more in strength over time. Snoke tested Ben, but the test strengthened the connection between him and Rey. Snoke died, but he was a mere vessel/clone/minion so it meant nothing in the end. Kylo thought he gained absolute power, but he was a mere child compared to the true ruler. After patiently waiting 30 years, the stage for Palpatine's return was now set.
The Sith Fleet was finally completed during this time, nearly ready for deployment. Palpatine was aging, but the time he forsaw was nearly upon him. Whether the body he was in was his original one or not, he would soon have the absolute power he sought. In Episode IX, he draws Kylo Ren to him, instructs Kylo to bring his own descendant Rey before him, and the events of the film play out as the leaks describe them. The First Order and Sith Fleet unite forces back under one banner. Kylo and Rey both turn against Palpatine, but come to meet him together, which would be their "undoing". It is here he will siphon their powers and regain his youth, reaching a level of strength no force user had ever before achieved. It is here he will destroy the last of the resistance and the last of the Skywalkers, unleashing an unstoppable armada of Death Star Destroyers to take absolute control of the Galaxy. If one lone ship is destroyed by any future resistance, hundreds more can sweep in and wipe out countless worlds, making the fleet far less vulnerable than the Death Stars were. It is here that Palpatine will become the ultimate power in the universe.
This, was his final plan.
tl;dr - Palpatine survives as a clone body himself or "teleports" away from the DS II (perhas to the world between worlds, where he could see past and future, even influence them), sent resources into the unknown regions before his death, created and used clone bodies of Snoke to sweep in and take over the First Order, had a vision of the force dyad of Ben and Rey, influenced Ben from afar to corrupt him and wipe out Luke's order, uses the First Order to take revenge against Leia and the rebellion/NR, builds the Sith fleet in secret separately from the first order, lets Snoke get killed to further the relationship/conflict/bond between Kylo and Rey, lures Skywalker out to destroy him... all so he can leave the Galaxy in ruins to return and troll them with his planet killing fleet while gaining unlimited power from Ben and Rey and becoming the ultimate Dark Sider.
(But please read the full thing if you have some time, as there's a lot of depth and canon evidence I put into it for good reasons.)
I also made a later post elaborating much more specifically on one of the chosen methods for how a certain person 'could' survive and how it would affect the story if this was the method that was chosen...
The WBW is a way for him to simultaneously learn about Ben and Rey without having actually given birth to a child himself, something Pablo claimed he never did (a statement that could also simply be untrue when IX hits).
The realm allows for instant transportation between not only time, but also space. The short version of it is because it is likely a realm deep within the cosmic force which connects the entire existence of the force itself, similar to what is described by Qui-Gon as the timeless void where force ghosts are said to be possible. (Qui-Gon claims to Yoda he exists in a realm where there is no past and future). Break through this barrier and you connect to the entirety of existence.
Palpatine isn't stupid. Blatantly trying to change past events that led to him being where he is when it turned against him in such unexpected ways is risky and goes back to the old time paradox idea. Attempting to create a 'possible' future beyond his current present, or subtly influence one he witnesses in the realm is much less risky and is pretty much what Ezra and Ashoka do. It could even be a predestination thing where he sees it was already meant to be (I.E. he sees that he would gain power from Ben and Rey, but can't see that he'll be defeated right after), and merely takes steps to fill it by reaching through time and birthing Rey.
He DOES choose to change fate, but in a way that lines up with the rumors by creating a family line that he himself had never given birth too prior to this. This allows him to create a child without actually conceiving one the old fashioned way, fitting a lot more with what fans perceive about his character and what's been established for decades, while still letting technically him have offspring, and even closely tying Rey thematically to Anakin, explaining almost all of her abilities. They are not children to him, just yet another Sith experiment, created by a loophole the realm allows him to utilize.
We don't know exactly what he intended to do when accessing it. At first he tried to reach it himself, but that failed. Then he tried got get Ezra to undo his enemies victory for him, but that also failed. If he learned to use the realm, it would likely take him years. Using it as part of his already ongoing survival/contingency strategy would make sense for him. (Note that the contingency already existed even without him finding the realm, the realm just allowed him to find the final secret to unlocking his immortality... future visions of Ben and Rey).
Finally, this also explains why he simply didn't return immediately after "teleporting away" in a bit more of an elegant fashion. He was what happened to Vader after his betrayal. He saw the New Republic's victory. He saw the timelines and realized that biding his time and waiting for the weakness of his enemies made much more sense than just returning when they were at full strength and on their guard.
I was very deliberate in my choice to present this theory. I believe it has the potential to solve almost every common complaint the idea of him "just being alive" presents to us.
This may all be a guess, could be accurate, or just my own overly elaborate "fan fiction" as some will deride it to be. Whatever it is, I leave that up to you. Some bits of my theory I am believing to be true until directly contradicted by the films themselves (most notably the TLJ compass bit).
I hope you guys enjoy this final stab at things. I miss this place and don't post here much these days (despite reading almost all Lit that comes out now, currently on Resistance Reborn). In only a little over a week, we'll know the final truth.
Warning y'all: the score has leaked.
Though it's not the score exactly, as in the actual soundtrack album we'll be getting; it's the For Your Consideration version sent out to the Oscars and such. But still, 23 tracks all with metadata intact, so we've got track names too.
Haven't seen any of this yet. Are the soundtrack titles spoilery? Palpatine's Time Lord Regeneration? The Great Ewok Hunt of Kylo Ren?
I wouldn't say so; nothing along the lines of Qui-Gon's Noble End. They're all fairly "generic", I suppose, same as the previous ones (like Torn Apart hiding Han's death and "Peace and Purpose" hiding Luke's). But there's a few spoilers in the actual music itself, if you recognize certain melodies or hear a certain theme being played in a particular way under a particular track title.
New veeery detailed leak and entire movie plot description step by step on reddit. Seems the movie changed again from its last incarnation and they shuffled around stuff and cut a lot again.
Buuut... leaks and rumors aside, lets do a little game (with spoiler tags please!) in the style of "kiss, marry, kill". Of the leaked stuff you have heard/read.. what would you "consider fake, consider true and cut, leave in the movie and wanna see"! (just use 1 per category, no rants!)
Everyone knew Qui-Gon was going to die even before seeing Episode I, right? I mean, he doesn't show up in the OT and we all knew that Obi-Wan becomes Anakin's master.
I remember a magazine blurb in 1999 with the line, "What is Qui-Gon's mysterious connection to the Sith Lord Darth Maul?" or something to that effect.
20 years later and 2 continuities in (Legends and Canon), and I don't think any actual connection between them was ever established.
MASSIVE SPOILERS DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW
Saw the newest reddit stuff. Really disappointing if it's true Anakin isn't in it but even Mace is.
Also no explanation for Palpatine's survival? We're just to assume his life draining trick was the Plagueis way of cheating death and he learned it and used it in ROTJ?
Both survived TPM... somehow unnaturally
you guys exciting news the the latest spoiler dump--!
While looking for an exit [Rey & company] encounter the sand worm that's been previously mentioned. This source says that it looks more like a viper.
Some Sort of Viper, confirmed!
This is the film that has been prophecized by the fans of old.
A prophecy, misread, could have been.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
You refer to the prophecy of the One that will bring balance to the Force. And you believe it's this... girl?
Big cast spoiler confirmation
The "For Your Consideration" thing submitted to the Oscars has Mark Hamill under the Best Supporting Actor category.
What is happening with the german Burger King spoiler campaign?
Heavy Spoilers of entire movie including end and major reveals, beware!
Same spoilers as the leaks on reddit.. but on official german Burger King youtube channel and Burger King app!
Disney/LFLs doing? Burger King going rogue? Were all leaks fake and part of the Mystery Box misleading campaign reloaded? Did leaks originate from this campaign or did the campaign hijack the leaks?
Burger King going rouge they are basing the ad on leaks they saw on the internet . Disney, Bad Robot and Lucas film have nothing to do with the campaign
The campaign hijacked the leaks. It's not even advertising the film. And leak sources like MSW have been reporting for years now using much the same sources, so it can't be something Disney's suddenly set up.
Yeah that's not Disney/LFL's doing, nor sanctioned -- they bleep out "Star Wars" and use substitute descriptions in place of the characters' names (at least in the ad -- they do print some names in the app).
Anyway, buy Biscuit Baron, the gendered noble sandwich of choice~