Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Maybe I'm opening a can of worms, as there may be no good answer to this question, but why does the Atlas (and a few other sources) place the Battle of Galidraan in 44 BBY when the databank entry for Antidar Williams says that it happens "years" after the Stark Hyperspace War (which was in 44 BBY)?

 

Regarding points raised by Thrawn McEwok:

Q: How much of SBS is fit into the one-month timeframe?
A: All of it. SBS was determined to run about a month. That was a determination actually made by Eddie, not me, but then approved through Leland, as the rest of the dates were.

Q: Tahiri's Age
A: Tahiri is 9 in JJK, and is given as having been born in 13 ABY. In 43.5 ABY (Outcast), she'd be 29 or 30, depending on when in the year she was born. In Edge of Victory, a bit into 26 ABY, she'd be 13 at the oldest, given that even having her birthday already having taken place that year, that's the maximum mathematical age for the character. As noted, the ages in the NJO got all fouled up, repeatedly, as was acknowledged by LFL. If they had gone with the "nearly 10" for JJK, rather than 9 for JJK, then her birth could've been in 12 ABY instead, making her a year older in the calculations most novels used, which would've made that Conquest date work. However, that's not now the character's age has been treated. (I agree that 12 ABY would make more sense. I might bring that up to Leland. For now, 13 is still apparently what's accepted.)

It's the ABY/BBY dates that are a mess, IMHO, not the novels.

Eddie would be the one better to ask on that one, but as I recall, the NJO dates weren't even internally consistent with each other, even if we completely disregarded the age errors or the requirement of the hardbacks denoting a new year. It was that inconsistency that led to the necessity to use that new year demarcation as a major factor in how to derive dates. That inconsistency was also part of why the novels were not given daily dates like the Thrawn, Zsinj, and X-wing dates were.

Q: Ben's age
A: I'd have to look at the info from the Holocron that I was sent on this one, which isn't with me right now. I know that the Holcron has a definitive birth month for Ben (X.X years ABY), but I don't recall what it was off the top of my head.

I would also bear in mind that YV dates are all much looser now that Invasion is going to be shoehorning things into them. That's yet another reason why we didn't pin down exact days.

Q: Thrawn
A: We only dealt with the issue of Thrawn's major campaign, as instructed. Thrawn's involvement in TG were not an issue, as his major campaign had not begun at that time. It also bore no relevance to when the Thrawn Trilogy had to begin and when TG had to take place in relation to COPL, nor when COPL had to take place in reference to the rest of the Hunt for Zsinj campaign.

And, if it's not clear yet: It's not "my" dating system. It's LFL's canonical approach. They have decided that one is to measure on a 12-month calendar, which is what most authors have used. We've been told the NJO ages are incorrect. We've been told the hardbacks kick off a near year of NJO. Etc., etc, etc. My purview and Eddie's was not to reinvent the wheel. We were to use the information as presented to make general duration dates for the events of the NJO. The very issues you're going into are precisely why the dates didn't go into more detail.

You're making the argument that one has to "throw out huge chunks of the plot" to make dates work that were already under LFL assumption at the time anyway. You don't have to throw out plot. You have to recognize the errors as what they were: a perpetuated "oops." Just like any other continuity issue that arises, you don't pull a pre-holocron "Oh, this doesn't fit exactly, so this minor inconsistency throws out this entire plotline or novel." You take a Holocron-era approach that acknowledges and deals with those inconsistencies on a case by case basis, leaving the stories intact. I couldn't even tell you the number of times such an issue arose and the response was, "Oh, it was a mistake. Pay it no mind," basically, as I've been working on the SWT-G over the last 12 years.

In any event, the BBY/ABY dating is the core of how the EU is dated. It has been since the EU got into full swing in the 1990s. The in-universe digital dating was essentially a throwaway form o

 

Is the new dating system described in this Atlas? If not, where is it described in detail, because it must have been something I missed?

And my ordered copy is in the mail... hopefully it'll arrive tomorrow.

 

OK, I noticed the Clone Wars section seems to follow the chronology est. pre-cartoon, which surprised me, I thought it'd stay vague. So this is going to be the policy? I like the decision, as fitting all that stuff into a few weeks would have been a mess. I take it this means Anakin's padawan braid should be ignored in all these later adventures, although in some places it will be hard to do so, chiefly the whole Padawan Pack thing and being Mundi's apprentice when OB1 is missing

Jason: Are you going to keep updating your system database with new locations form books, comics, and shows published post-Atlas?

Delvaruds is the only warlord whose Deep Core HQ is not specified in Atlas. I noticed the map of the Dark Empire era places Delvardus in about the same part of the Deep Core the Deep Core map in Part I places the planet Odik. Could this be the capital of Delvardus?

I've been thinking of what maps would be neat online expansions:

1) Black Fleet Crisis, inc a broad galaxy map of Akanah's travels and the Teljkon Vagabond's travels, and a detailed map of the Koornacht area, the Purge, and battles bw Yevetha and NR

2) Kyle Katarn's adventures

3) Boba Fett's adventures

4) map companions to Jedi Apprentice, Jedi Quest, and Last of the Jedi

5) map companion to JAT and Darksaber

6) Antemeridian/Meridian detail map, with spread of plague, movements of characters

7) adventures of R2 and 3PO between Episodes III and IV

8) Ssi-ruuk/Shiritoku detail map

9) Corellian sector detail map

10) Shelswa Sector detail, Allegiance companion

11) HoT companion map and Bothan Space detail

12) Sluis Sector detail map

13) map of Rebel bases

14) Gree Enclave detail map

15) Gevarno Loop detail

16) travels of Argo and Vanis and the search for them

 

Q: The StarWars.com VIP thread was around in '99?
It was one of the early questions, if I am recalling correctly, that I raised in the original (i.e. not the new) VIP thread once it began, but the questions about the ages weren't raised in 1999. It was later, once the novel ages were fouled up then fixed in later NJO novels (again, if I remember right). I would guess the question was asked maybe in the same time frame as when I was summarizing some of the latter NJO books for the SWT-G. I couldn't say off the top of my head when that was being done, though.

Q: Relative Dating
A: Relative dating is what we had to deal with when hammering out the day-and-date materials for the other maps. The short version would be that internal dating must be considered also in light of stated BBY/ABY dating, and generally the latter wins out on large scales, while the small scales are kept consistent if possible. Unless you're dealing with a situation where the dates are rather disorganized, not consistent, or obviously superceded by something else (i.e what's happening with the Clone Wars materials), the approach seems to be to honor full novel placement first, then internal dating second. For example, no matter where we ended up by the end of Wedge's Gamble, Rogue Squadron began 2.5 years after ROTJ, so it had better start on that date, etc.

Q: NJO date errors
A: The way I understand it from the years-old discussion about those dates with Sue Rostoni and when I had a chance to talk to Greg Keyes in person, was that someone made an age error somehow, and it ended up perpetuated, only to be fixed later when they became aware of it. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head when that error was fixed or when they became aware of it. I just remember being surprised that the authors were basing ages off of each other's age notations, rather than simply checking the character's required age for themselves. I think there was even a "riff" on that on ChronoRadio at one point.

I'm not sure how this works as a defense of the rigid (and problematic) limitations imposed by the ABY timeline...

What I'm saying is that the "rigid" ABY timeline isn't what's rigid in this case. That's the standard. Using inconsistent internal dating to try to force the BBY/ABY dates for entire novels to shift is the "rigid" approach. The BBY/ABY is mostly a loose system that those dates work around. If something's, for example, five months after ANH, it could be 35:8:1, 35:8:15, 35:8:9, or whatever. It becomes rigid the more one attempts to take internal references (that authors rarely keep full track of when considering other stories around their stories) and try to force changes into the broader BBY/ABY timeframe to make those inviolable.

I guess what I'm getting at is that you're looking at the dates backward in terms of relevance. Let's say you're writing a novel about World War II, but it's a fiction story. You might choose to start it with Hitler having invaded Poland in 1939. That would put your story sometime in September or later of 1939. You just have your characters carrying out their own lives, effected by the fear of war growing, and then you end with your finale. Another person might be hired write a story with similar characters, and they might be told that they should begin in early 1940, so they write their story. Later, you look and see that your story was set in 1939, and theirs was set in 1940, and they used one of the same characters. If it turns out that your novel covered such a long duration that part of early 1940 would have been used up, and you find that it means that the first

 

Is the new dating system described in this Atlas? If not, where is it described in detail, because it must have been something I missed?

There isn't a "new" dating system in the Atlas. The Atlas uses the same BBY/ABY dates that have been around since they used to be BSW4/ASW4 in some early publications. They follow LFL's longstanding dates and approach to those dates, even as they relate to the digital GWNN/HNN dates.

The only things new are clarifications:

1. The ANH date, having been originally created as a 10-month calendar date, then later assumed to be a 12-month calendar date, is again reiterated as being a 12-month calendar date.

2. The ESB date, having been created as a 10-month calendar date, has now been provided (with approval) as the 12-month calendar date (just as Leland Chee recently noted that those old 10-month exact dates would be treated as a 12-month calendar in the future overall).

3. ROTJ now has a date, which finally answers the old issue of whether it is actually 4 ABY or 1 year after ESB, which weren't the same, thanks to Galaxywide News Nets.

4. The Road to Coruscant, Hunt for Zsinj, and Thrawn Campaign all have daily dated maps, which also means that the twins now have a date of birth, and some of the novels have exact start dates.

5. The NJO dates in relation to hardcover placement and how movements span between its years have been laid out, but only in broad strokes.

6. The TPM date that was originally a Holocron-only date has finally been revealed.

7. The conflict between Karen Traviss' "Order 66" dates for ROTS and the Holonet News (et al) dates for ROTS has been resolved in favor of the latter at Chee's direction.

8. I now get to look like an idiot because a typo in an email I wrote to Jason ended up in the Atlas as a typo (so to speak) in the date for ROTS, which should be one year later than the date given on the map (16, not 15).

Those who are making the argument that this is a "new" dating system have, for years apparently, been mistakenly regarding years relative to ANH as "Month 1 - Month 12," not "Month 3 - Month 2," which is something that LFL had rarely addressed outwardly, but something that has been the case since GWNN printed a date for ANH, and something that the SWT-G (et al) has tried to educate people about for years, apparently with little success.

 

The BBY/ABY I've long been used to - its just the digital GWNN/HNN dates I guess I need to catch up on.

Thanks for the response!

 

Ah, I now see that the Atlas dates the Stark Hyperspace War in 46 BBY. Was this done so that Galidraan could still be "years" after the SHW?

 

No. I've got to look at that one -- think I goofed the SHW date is all.

We're compiling the potential errata; want to let things settle down before we look at everything and figure out what we can fix, what gets retconned and what's just interpretation....

 

I think a better question may be: why does the Atlas (and a few other sources) place the Battle of Galidraan in 44 BBY when the source that originated it had it set in 34 BBY?

 

I would assume nothing about CW dating. Once things are put in order, whenever that is, I suspect there will have to be a fair amount of ignoring braids etc.

Yes -- and in fact already have about 30 new ones from recent and upcoming stuff.

I don't think we dealt with capitals for the warlords. (Did they even have them?) But that's certainly possible.

Cool ideas -- thank you for them. I think I have a Gevarno Loop map that I did freehand, in fact. And there's a Gree map in the old Adventure Journal.

We're unlikely to go near stuff that might become a continuity snarl with new material, which argues against R2/3PO, Boba Fett and other stuff that might come into play for CW or the live series. I definitely want to do some more Closer Looks if LFL and readers are interested, and doing a Core sector and an area that's on the frontier and half Wild Space would be really fun.

 

Dear Nathan,

OK, here's a simple one: I know you've decided to revert to pre-Traviss dates for ROTS; fine by me. But in Order 66, she's stated outright that the Battle of Coruscant lasts five standard days; a pretty obvious statement that she's going by the old WEG convention that a standard week lasts five days, not seven. I say that because the New Essential Chronology stated that the battle lasted an entire week. Did you and the gang decide to reverse Traviss there as well, and decide that a week is seven days, or stick with the five-day week that Traviss seems to be laying down? Or, since it does no harm to any timelines overall to do so, should we split both ways on this, and say "Yes, a week is seven days, but the battle lasted only five days, like she said?" Was there a ruling, and if so, what was it?

I figured that would be something you could answer without breaking too many taboos.

 

Jason, couple of minor questions:

Is "Abyss" in the Index the new name for the Abyssin homeworld? (because that would stop a lot of confusion)
Following up on a previous question, if Amar is the homeworld of the Amarans, is the planet Amara mentioned in Star Wars Gamer 1 (and not in the Index) the same?

 

I think I saw Kashi Mer on one of the maps, but I am not seeing it in appendix

How are the CW cartoons going to have continuity problems with R2 and 3PO's "Droids" cartoon/comics adventures?

unfortunately, I don't have the Adventure Journals, so I didn't realize Gree space had been done

 

Sorry, re R2/3PO I was thinking of the live-action show. Not a hint -- I don't know anything about the show.

Kashi is listed as Orixon Nebula (Kashi) in the appendix.

 

Appendix lists Mandallia and Mandalore separately, but Part II says they are in same system

wow I hadn't even thought about the live action show possibly contradicting the adventures of the droids...I cross my fingers it doesn't

Jason, you mentioned "Kyyr" was "Ryyk" backwards bc Ryyk had to be near Mandalore
1) I don't see Kyyr in appendix
2) I am curious why Ryyk need be near Mandalore

 

The destruction of the Kyyr system formed the Thornhedge Nebula, Senator.

I believe the Ryyk Nebula was mentioned in the KOTOR comic series, and indicated it was near or in the fighting of the Mandalorian Wars.

 

regarding Karthakk, no new info I could see

Jason and Dan: Appendix has a planet called Simoom. Is this supposed to be the original Phlog/Gorax homeworld or something? The only Simoom I know of is the Phlog desert on Endor, and it struck me the desert could be named for their original homeworld

also, Suolriep and Sulorine are listed separately, but I thought it had been confirmed these were the same, one a misspelling

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shawti
I saw no mention of Shawti on map of Hutt Space or in appendix...is it just in Klatooine system or something?

what is the story on the two Tel systems in appendix?

 

Reading through the section on the Death Stars, I was disappointed to see that Gellefon wasn't on the Death Star map. And although I didn't expect it to be there, it would have been hilarious had the opportunity been taken to mention the Devastator's falling for the Tantive V's ruse, with Vader meeting Abso Bar. And where's the intricately detailed discussion of the third Death Star from Star Tours?

 

Re magazine articles like that one, the determination was that we'd make the star systems "geographically canon" without extending that to the story elements.

Don't get me started on the third Death Star. Drives me insane.

 

That would definitely be something to see, especially between EP. IV - VI, since the Alliance was most confined during those years and the chance of overwhelming the mapmaker would be less likely.

 

Point Nadir is on the shadowports map, but not in the appendix.

 

It's Resh 9376.

 

First: I just received word from Modi. There *was* a miscommunication on the NJO maps. From the info Eddie and I were working from, the second NJO map was to cover Balance Point through the end of Star By Star, and the third would go from there through the end of The Unifying Force. Apparently the maps themselves, which Modi was behind independently, covered Balance Point through right before Destiny's Way, then from Destiny's Way through the end of The Unifying Force. Thus the dates for the last two NJO maps are incorrect.

The second map should be labeled: 61:3 - 63:3.
The third map should be labeled: 63:3 - 64:6.

Not an intentional error, just a miscommuniction from two teams trying to be thorough.

That, in theory though, can lay to rest the Star By Star end-date issue, as one could surmise that with these being the correct labels, the Star by Star duration is more or less meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Now, people can instead begin to bicker about whether Destiny's Way could possibly begin in 63:3.

We've added that to the errata.



With regard to the Traviss dates:

OK, here's a simple one: I know you've decided to revert to pre-Traviss dates for ROTS; fine by me. But in Order 66, she's stated outright that the Battle of Coruscant lasts five standard days; a pretty obvious statement that she's going by the old WEG convention that a standard week lasts five days, not seven. I say that because the New Essential Chronology stated that the battle lasted an entire week. Did you and the gang decide to reverse Traviss there as well, and decide that a week is seven days, or stick with the five-day week that Traviss seems to be laying down? Or, since it does no harm to any timelines overall to do so, should we split both ways on this, and say "Yes, a week is seven days, but the battle lasted only five days, like she said?" Was there a ruling, and if so, what was it?

As per the Holocron and Holonet News (etc.), we know that Order 66 (the order, not the novel) took place on 16:5:23. The info I was given included that date, but it also included dates for all of the major events of ROTS (starting on 16:5:20), and even a set of info for dates leading up to ROTS. Given that it was a previously-established date, and I think it also showed up in Holonet News, I think it's safe to note that the 5-day Battle of Coruscant seems to be the accepted event, given that all of the info I sifted through agreed with the info I was given, which put the start of the battle on 16:5:15.

The place where the issue emerged was in her dates on how long after Geonosis things were happening, I believe.

AOTC's Battle of Geonosis was on 13:5:22, also confirmed by Leland and the Holocron. It is a one-day battle, two at most, based on the info I have. Traviss then says that Order 66 is issued on Day 1,089 ABG. On a 12-month calendar, that's 2 years and 359 days after Geonosis, which would put Order 66 on 16:5:16, during the Battle of Coruscant. On a 10-month calendar, with a 368-day year, 1,089 days after Geonosis would be 2 years and 353 days after 13:5:22. That would make it even earlier than the 12-month calendar, being 15 days shy of a full third year passing, which would have put Order 66 on 16:5:7.

Either way you slice it, her "days ABG" calculations for Order 66 didn't match up with what had already been established. Our purview, though, was only to determine the starting point of the film. That was already settled in the Holocron. I only had to check in with Leland to determine whether to use those settle dates or to ditch them in favor of specifying a new date based on Traviss' dates. I actually thought the answer would be to go with Traviss, since it was the newer source, but it turned out that Leland wanted to go the other way, so I did . . .

. . . and then got the year numeral wrong. GAH!

(Yeah, I'm gonna keep kicking myself on that.)