Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

So if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, and 16 ABY does refer to the whole year, then I apologize. But if it doesn't, then I really don't know how tenable this idea is.

It refers to both, depending on your context. In shorthand, one might say "16 ABY" with the assumed "(in the year) 16 ABY" left out, with the context of the sentence or notation making the meaning of what you're saying make sense to the audience.

For example, we might, in context, say, "I really enjoyed the first year of New Jedi Order stories that were set 25 ABY." In that context, the multiple stories obviously wouldn't be literally concurrent, so one doesn't need to say "in the year 25 ABY." The "in the year" portion of the phrase is taken as a given.

On the other hand, if I say that something is 6.5 ABY, we first are assuming the "6.5" refers to "years," then we are noting a span of time. A calendar, for example, would not have a year marked as "6.5 ABY." It'd just have 6 ABY (referring to the year in that case, not the duration), which would refer to events from 6 - 7 ABY (in terms of duration). That latter, 6 - 7 ABY would refer to events from six up TO seven years after ANH in a duration notation (such as the date span of 0 - 1 ABY, the first year of events after Yavin), rather than six THROUGH seven years after Yavin, a two-year time span.

It is a question of context, which I am glad you sort of led me into, because I don't know that I've made the context issue clear or not before (so thanks for that, btw).

So, in Atlas dating terms:

The first dates we ever came up with were the dates for the "Road to Coruscant" map. For that, we needed a starting point. We've been told in novel lists, novel promotions, guides, and whatnot, that XWRS is "two and a half years after ROTJ." (In fact, in all of the novels that placed that story within the rundown of SW novels, it was worded that way, in words rather than numbers.) We now hear it referred to instead as 6.5 ABY (and before that 6.5 ASW4, and sometimes in words rather than numbers).

So, we had one comment that it is 2.5 years after ROTJ (30 months after ROTJ), and we have another that says it is 6.5 ABY (78 months after ANH).

In order to make sure we were accurate, I had to check in with Leland, initially through Jason, to be sure of two things: whether we were to use a 12-month or 10-month calendar (given that the modern calendar is 12, yet the GWNN dates were originally 10); and whether we should logically assume that ROTJ is in 39:3 so that we can date ahead 30 months to place XWRS. The answers were to use the 12-month calendar and that we should go with that assumption for ROTJ.

At the time, I liked the simplicity, but at the same time, I remembered that ESB had been in a different month than ANH, so I was intrigued by the idea that ROTJ would've been in the same month as ANH, rather than the same month as ESB, or even in some other month altogether. It made sense to have the parallel each other, though, because, heck, the AOTC and ROTS dates are both around an exact three years apart, so perhaps this was something LFL liked to use to keep things simple.

I then developed the "Road to Coruscant" dates, as Eddie did similar ones, and we checked each other's calculations. That led to the final creation of those dates, sent to Jason. They were then confirmed by Leland, created as a map, and run by LFL to see if they liked the work and wanted to see more, so that these kind of dates could be part of the Atlas.

So, at that point, we had repeated confirmations of the base of ANH in Month 3 from GWNN, the use of a 12-month dating system, and, without it having appeared on an actual map yet, the month for ROTJ.

Later, as we received the go-ahead for the Zsinj, Thrawn, and NJO maps, we again were using the same base of ANH in Month 3 and LFL's indication to treat the dates as a duration of time after 35:3 to derive numerical dates.

Around that time, we started to discuss amongst ourselves that it might be that many fans out there have no idea that ANH was in Month 3,

 

Run, Jason!! Flee for your life!

 

Or also, you know, "The fourth year after the Battle of Yavin." The way it's repeatedly, consistently used in denoting an entire year. This is basic stuff.

 

So, if Yavin is 35:3, then...

The first year after Yavin is 35:3 - 36:2.
The second year after Yavin is 36:3 - 37:2.
The third year after Yavin is 37:3 - 38:2.
The fourth year after Yavin is 38:3 - 39:2.

That "basic stuff" you so snarkily just pointed out, actually would end up with ROTJ up to a year EARLIER than it should be, along with every other story that uses ABY for its dating.

If that's how the "ABY" notation is "repeatedly, consistently used in denoting an entire year," then we need to contact LFL because every single post-ANH story is a year off from what they had intended, isn't it?

 

Nathan, I wouldn't want you to become too discouraged just because of confusion and the fact that you've had a long day.

You did not make a mistake in wanting to set a ROTJ date; I've frankly been wanting one for years - ever since the Adventure Journals were cancelled before getting that far. My sole criticism (and I still believe it to be valid, though ultimately minor in the grander scheme) is that the month chosen - and ONLY the month - renders a single element in an already-established source - in my case, a comic issue which I've already cited before - a little less poignant than it would otherwise be. But this does not make the date a bad date at all; we've already determined that the small problem in question can be reconciled or otherwise smoothed over. So, no, it's not 39:1:3 like I had long anticipated (and do not rule personal expectations on the part of us readers out of this), but in the end nothing is really screwed in any way by the date being 39:3:3 instead. I've already adjusted my own personal timelines accordingly, and the world is still spinning.

As far as the ROTS date typo, you have from the very beginning copped to it being a simple human error - in other words, a mistake that ANY human being would and could make in a similar situation. And I might add that any one of us, who are no doubt as anal about this issue as anyone, could have made a similar mistake. It says a lot about your character that you refused to let Dan or Jason take the heat for it. And I think all of us here would agree that it need never be held against you, when Dan and Jason have committed similar mistakes - and statistically speaking, more of them than you made. I won't blame you for it, and I think that, no matter how hard you may flog yourself over it, you shouldn't do that. Poodoo happens.

As far as there being a fundamental misunderstanding - miscommunication would be nearer the mark - regarding the BBY/ABY system, I think what you're seeing now is indeed the sudden start that comes when a crowd that has been proceeding on one tack is suddenly told it's another tack they need to be on, and so they go "WHAT?!" I don't know how much of that miscommunication is because of LFL and the gang, or because of us. But again, it says much about your character that you try to concede the point as far as possible, though at the same time you're making plain that you were playing the cards you were dealt. We may disagree about how you played your hand, and we may not. But the cards were theirs to deal, not yours.

Am I being too concilatory? Perhaps even kissing a little derriere? Possibly. If anyone were to accuse me of that, I certainly would not argue with him. But I don't want to see one of our own - and we may forget sometimes that you started in the trenches with us - feel like they have to say they regret doing something. I've made my issue plain and I stand by it, but I'm not gonna cry out "Burn the witch! Burn the witch!" over it.

 

I appreciate that. I've made Jason aware of certain things happening on this end that are contributing to my attitude at the moment, but I'm doing my best to try to approach the discussion the same way I normally would. If I end up disappearing from the discussion for a day or so, though, rest assured that I'll return when in a better state of mind, or once some things are ironed out "in the real world."

You and me both. Not so much on this issue, but imagine all the work I'll be doing sometime in the future to deal with the decision to treat 10-month dates as 12-month dates from all those old sources. That's a lot of deleting and rewording for the SWT-G. It has probably made enough of an impact to push the next edition into next summer.

I appreciate that as well. In most respects, I tend to try to remain laid back, having learned long ago to try to let the little stresses go, so to speak. I think I'm still a bit tough with myself when it comes to SW, though, especially when it comes to chronology, because I realize that it's what has sort of given me opportunities I wouldn't have had before (in many respects) and because I realize that there's no longer a TimeTales growing out there to be another resource on par, as far as comprehensiveness goes, with the SWT-G. It creates a weight that I didn't realize it would when I started that thing back in '97.

That, in part, goes back to something that always got to me when dealing with issues of Canon back in the early SWT days, especially pre-Holocron. Trying to explain all the different interpretations of what canon meant at various points, how things were included or not included, and such, based on looking at decisions and information that wasn't made plain in direct fashion at the time by LFL made for some pretty trying times. It was similar to this, actually, where it was like I was trying to explain decisions and ideas that were not my own, but evident for a while, when those who had assumed otherwise for just as long started to sort of recoil and "go porcupine" on the idea.

On the other hand, if you saw me on a daily basis, especially before the goatee, you might say, "Burn the Wizard," given my annoyin

 

Honestly, let's not, or at least, let's let you all continue the discussion. I think I've said as much as I can on the subject enough times that I'm starting to feel we're going around in circles often. I'm hoping that the last few posts have started to clear that fog. With the weekend coming up, it is probably best that I leave the discussion as it stands, for now, so I can be productive on various fronts on this end of things.

On the plus side, I think asking the police to do an IP trace may have just finally nailed a stalker and potentially saved a life, so I'm ready to drop at least some of this stress, though not all (because he still has to be caught), and call it a week for now.

If something comes up that people are concerned about, let Jason know. He can reach me and let me know to drop back by. I appreciate all the spirited debate.

 

I've never seen - and probably never will see - your picture, so I can't comment on it, but I have noticed that you bash yourself over that issue before anyone else gets the chance. "Chronologicus Maximus!" and all that. Irrespective of whether I like or dislike the Potter books, there are worse things to get bagged about.

 

I say it first online. My girlfriend or students usually say it first offline.

 

Wait a minute, wait a minute... what's this about a STALKER?! Has there been stuff going on that we've missed?

 

okkk...I've never messed with the chronology to the depth many have, but I know its a difficult area, and I want to say that whatever controversies exist, I admire Nathan for tackling it, considering that when all this stuff was being made it wasn't a huge priority with the film and book creators. I've always admired his Timeline and appreciate his contributions to the Atlas. I also realized I haven't thanked Modi yet, which I do. I loved all the maps he and cartographer made online, and when I saw Modi's name on this book I knew it would be a jewel, and I was not disappointed. I wish I had the kind of talent these two gentlemen have! Plus I am a bit jealous, especially since I am like 8 years older than Modi and have no talent of any kind comparable.

P.S. Gunda Wicket! I just noticed the OWS preview of the sector map. There is no disappointment, there is the Atlas! Awesome awesome awesome!
[Jedi should remain calm at all times...but this Jedi Master will make an exception.]

 

Ah, another mystery resolved. Looks like the Alliance ending for Balance of Power is canon.

 

wow, really? I missed that. Blackmyron, what are you referring to?

 

Nocto - the location of the Alliance shipyard in Airam Sector and the final battlesite in both campaigns, is listed as an "Alliance Victory" on the "Flashpoints in the Galactic Civil War" map.

 

Ploo and Plooriod are different? Which one has the moons orbitting it that the Episode I species come from? I could have sworn various sources had referred to these moons as both Ploo # and Plooriod #, indicating planets = to each other.

Lur and Lurr are different? Which is Lurrian homeworld...and what is the other one and where from!?

I just noticed appendix lists a Core World PERLEMIA!

Is this the elusive source of the name of the mother of all trade routes? Is this world as important as the name association would lead one to speculate?

 

Lame; nobody ever has the guts to make a "Dark Side" ending in a game the canon one.

 

héllo i am baron de rocquemort
sorry for my intrusion and have question i am passionate by imperial warlord after endor and i am curious to know the name of 12 warlord invited by daala
i know délvarduss, harssk , téradoc ,yzu but is possible and indicate their territories in the deep core?
I want to know Where was the territory of krennel and Admiral Fonada in the galaxy
thank for your assistance and help my friends
raoul

 

I don't think they were given names... I always refer to them as Admiral Deadmeat, Commodore Expendable, etc.

Krennel operated out of the Ciutric Hegemony, based on the planet Ciutric. The Hegemony was adjacent to the Pentastar Alignment.

Fonada operated somewhere in the Outer Rim.

 

yes of course my friend and i think .... never the new républic have mapped the extended their territories? unless its warlords control only one solar system and is too small .. would like to know that it is the name of the planet controlled by Admiral Tavira and where is it located is inner or mid rime ?
thank you

 

I've got an idea. Let's just overhaul the whole dating system and date A New Hope at 1977.

 

Look at it this way, folks... It's like telling people your age. If you tell someone you're 20 years old, you don't mean that you were born 20 years ago today. You mean "this is my twentieth year". I have never told someone my age and have them reply, "Wow! What a coincidence! Happy Birthday!"

The real problem here is that there really ISN'T a real in-universe dating system. I don't really think there's any instance where a character in a narrative story uses "X years ABY" in dialogue. It may make more sense to have dates like "35" or "2009", but doing so wouldn't do any good to a casual reader wanting to know when one story takes place in relation to the films.

 

The one that isn't the Lurrian homeworld is from Devilworlds...can't remember which one, offhand, but that's where it's from.

TC

 

I'm upset. I got an email today from Amazon UK that my order is being delayed due to 'stock issues'. They had today as the date for the book but it is still in preorder status on their website. And I didn't see it at any of the local bookstores when I was in town.

 

Maybe because its so popular?

I think mine might arrive today... I hope.