Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Because they're not part of the galaxy per se. It makes more sense for the Jedi records to be comprehensive about the galaxy *per se*- i.e. the disk itself than they need be of an extra-galactic territory. An extra-galactic territory would be the very last place to be explored, if ever. But a huge portion of the disk itself? It's absurd, and further, AotC demonstrates that.

From SWTC, why outside of the disk would be more likely to be "unknown":

"However a spiral galaxy doesn't end abruptly, and there is diffuse formless material and occasional stars, stellar remnants and globular star clusters scattered in a spherical halo of space surrounding the disk, even above the main galactic plane. Dark matter in the halo constitutes most of the galactic mass; although mysterious to our science, it should be innocuous old knowledge to a galactic civilisation. Few of the complacent people of the greater galaxy would bother to stray from their tens-of-millennia-old trade routes to visit these spaces beyond the disk, because the distances are so vast and the destinations so scarce. Chemical considerations make planets unlikely or uncommon in globular clusters, even though these associations of millions of stars must have high abundances of interesting power sources like exotic stellar corpses. In total the halo would still contain millions of interesting destinations but because they're spread across space much larger than the disk, it wouldn't be economical to establish trade routes so far out. This zone is probably what constitutes the Unknown Regions and Wild Space. These regions may have an unusually large concentration of naval and military power, (in the hands of secretive rogue species like the Nagai, Tofs, Ssi-Ruuk and Chiss) but very few inhabited systems compared to the galaxy at large. Indeed the conditions of these sparse interstellar badlands might actually encourage spacefaring locals towards aggression."

Asserting that they must know about the Unknown Regions because they "know their basic galactic cartography" is simply incompatible with the dialog. Jocasta Nu did not say "if a planet in this region of the galaxy is not in our archives ..."

The whole galaxy is well-charted. That's what Jocasta Nu virtually said. If it's not in the archive, that means it doesn't exist. The very *concept* of a badly or uncharted planet is inconceivable to her. That's what her statement means.

Furthermore, your claim that the planet is known in the Republic is false. First of all, Obi-Wan's never heard of it. Dex says it's not part of the Republic in reply. Jocasta Nu says she's not familiar with it. The Temple droids can't identify where this Kamino sabre dart is from, even though we know that Kamino is listed on their maps, since Dooku deleted it. It's not a well known planet, but they knew exactly where it was. And as Jocasta Nu said, they know where *every* planet is.

Strictly speaking there most certainly is. The existence of Unknown Regions and Jocasta Nu's declaration are mutually exclusive, and the film is of course superior information. That's why it's better to shove these UR out of the galaxy. For emphasis, here's the novelization of AotC on the issue:

"That's impossible- perhaps the Archives are incomplete." (not "the archives about this part of the galaxy")

"The Archives are comprehensive and totally secure ... One thing you may be absolutely sure of: if an item does not appear in our records [not "i

 

I agree that the way you interpret the dialog is the most straight-forward and the way most casual fans will read it. But, if we want to follow canon (which we do here), we know that is the incorrect view. I showed that there is not neccesarily any continuity error here.
The UR are a part of the Galaxy, yes. But they can hardly be travelled in and are mostly unexplored. It is not very strange that people wouldn't consider the UR as part of the "real" Galaxy.

There is no real point in continuing this conversation if you don't consider the EU and the maps canon.


/Charlii

 

I agree that the way you interpret the dialog is the most straight-forward and the way most casual fans will read it. But, if we want to follow canon (which we do here), we know that is the incorrect view.

What? It is incorrect to place the EU above the films in interpretation.

I showed that there is not neccesarily any continuity error here.
The UR are a part of the Galaxy, yes. But they can hardly be travelled in and are mostly unexplored. It is not very strange that people wouldn't consider the UR as part of the "real" Galaxy.

There is no real point in continuing this conversation if you don't consider the EU and the maps canon.

No, I simply understand that they are under and subordinate to the movies. If the movie say one thing and the EU/ maps say another, then the EU/ maps are wrong. Simple as that. I'm not going to reinterpret the movie to fit the EU, I'm going to reinterpret (some of) the EU to fit the movie. That's how canon works. I never said I don't consider the EU and the maps canon, I'm merely interperting them in the least offensive-to-the-movies possible way.

 

G-canon only overrides C-canon in direct, unreconcileable contradictions. As I've pointed out this is not the case here.

Contrary to popular belief, the movies and the EU are not different levels of canon according to LFL. General implications from the movies do not override EU sources.



/Charlii

 

Let's not forget Jocasta was also sure that nobody could ever possibly alter the records and that if a system did not exist in their archive it did not exist! Yet, Dooku did alter their records, and Kamino did exist.

I don't think Jocasta was really as smart as she liked to think she was, rather the sort of Jedi who thought the universe revolved around them. It would seem quite within her character to think of the Republic as the whole galaxy, given she seemed to view the Jedi Order as infallible and refused to accept any form of inaccuracy in their records. If I made a map of the United States and said "If a city is not on my map, it does not exist" I would not be incorrect, as my map was only of the United States- just because it didn't show every city in Europe wouldn't mean Europe doesn't exist. It's a simple retcon (if that) to say Jocasta was just talking about the archives of Republic Space, rather than the whole Galaxy.

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, it's actually not even as complicated as this. Obi-Wan tells her "it should be in this quadrant somewhere... just south of the Rishi Maze." The fact he'd already pointed her to the rough location is the simplest explanation for why she wouldn't have bothered to mention the Unknown Regions- as he wasn't asking her to look anywhere near them.

 

Oh yes they do. As Vympel already has implied, everything in the movies, from virtually all of the opening scrolls to Jocasta Nu's comment that if something doesn't appear in the archives, then it doesn't exist, to the demonstration of the technological abilities when Obi-Wan takes the issue to Yoda, to Yoda's conclusion that Grievous was hiding in the Outer Rim (not the Unknown Regions which would've been a much better place if you wanted to hide, don't you agree?), shows that the galaxy is known (heck, you only have to consider that we see not only one, but two maps of the galactic disc in AOTC alone, neither of which indicates that there are regions there that are unknown).
This is yet another EU brainbug, just like the hyperspace travel times stated in the novels and some other things.

We also know that Yoda was able to reconstruct the data in the archives (that's how he stumbled across Dagobah). From the ROTS ICS:

Emphasis mine.

 

Since I imagine the people at LFL had a good grasp of 'C-canon' and 'G-canon' (considering it's their terminology, after all), the very fact that maps and books since AOTC have the Unknown Regions exactly as it was before the movie indicates that there isn't a major conflict. It's always possible it could change, but somehow I doubt it.

I'm curious about the actual extent of Hutt Space around the Clone Wars; the Fact Files map seems to indicate, when referenced with the map from NEC that planets like Boz Pity and Saleucami are within the expanded space - but while the Hutts have allowed battles on outlying possessions like Tatooine it somehow doesn't seem in character to allow the Confederacy to set up major bases within their boundaries. From "Secrets of the Sisar Sun" I got the impression that Hutt Space had small regions shaved off of it like the Periphery by the Empire, but most the area (Sulorine Sector, Iotran Space, etc.) wasn't under Hutt control at any time beyond their Imperial days in the time of Xim. Sriluur certainly seems to be neutral territory in "Jedi: Mace Windu"...
There seems to be a similiar issue with the Tion Hegemony, considering there is a major CIS presence (Raxus Prime) and Republic presence (Lianna). My pet theory is that the Tion Hegemony threw in with the Confederacy (considering their long-standing hatred of the Republic, this wouldn't be too surprising), but a portion of the Hegemony supported the Republic (which someone once likened similiar to West Virginia during the American Civil War). After the Clone Wars, the Tion Hegemony was carved up as defeated enemies often are and the Republic-friendly portion forming the Allied Tion sector. The Cronese Mandate probably remained neutral.
Hmmm... I really wish I knew more about the mysterious "Thanium worlds" that the Tion Cluster borders. Has anyone seen any references to them beyond the name mention in "Mission to Lianna" and "Geonosis and the Outer Worlds"? The only info I can find is that they border the Allied Tion near Lianna and that they were once part of Xim's empire...

 

Ok, one last post from me on the Galaxy as shown in the movies.

I am not arguing with you that the movies implies that the entire Galaxy is explored and most of it is under Republic control. This is most likely the original intent of Lucas. Just as Boba Fett died in the sarlacc, the Empire fell directly after Endor, Qui-Gon Jinn was the first Jedi to become a ghost, Sith cannot achieve immortality, the Republic was thousand years old, and so on...
Just as all these points have been changed by the EU, retcons have been invented to explain the would-be errors and Lucas simply says "Oh, well go ahead, I don't really care", this can and have been easily explained and incorporated into what we call "canon".

And on the issue of charts showing the entire Galaxy without blank areas: There are detailed starcharts of large parts of the Milky Way and the maps of Mars rivals the maps of Earth in accuresy. That doesn't mean that anyone have been to Mars or any other stars.



/Charlii

 

I've already said it's not irreconcilable. Hence putting the UR outside the disk. Simple. If I was of the opinion that it was irreconcilable, then I'd simply say "UR is BS" and leave it at that.

And I suppose you have a source for this claim? Because every quote on the subject places the movies at the top. Every time. As for "general implication"- what Jocasta Nu said is in no way a general implication. It is clear, explicit, and undeniable.

 

Free feel to call it BS or put it outside the disk, it doesn't make a whit of difference for the official canon. Read "The Making of the Map" article in Star Wars Insider 65, which came out after AOTC and mentions all about the placing of the Unknown Regions. Or, better yet, ask the guy who helped design the map.
LFL will always be the ultimate arbiter for canon. "G-canon" and "C-canon" is just explanations of how they come up with it. You don't have to accept it, but any future works are going to go off the info they have in the Holocron database.

 

"At the top" means that movies are generally favored when there is a continuity conflict -- no more, no less. It does not mean "oh no, tiny interpretation conflict, let's throw a bunch of material out with no thought of making it work." You may know the canon system, but you're not understanding how proper continuity works.

Oh, like, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father"?

 

That statement can be read two ways, however. All it says reading the words literally is that throughout the entire galaxy he found 37 missing systems. That could well be true.

That doesn't mean there still weren't still unknown places on the map or that the map represented the whole galaxy. It could mean that, sure, but it isn't actually saying that. The only thing it says beyond any doubt is that he managed to add 37 missing star systems, not in the Core, not in the Outer Rim, but throughout the entire galaxy. Whether the rest of the galaxy is explored or not would need another sentence to clarify.

 

You know, your post is the first time I've ever realized that I've been misspelling "Mindar" all these years! First the real-world reality, then the in-universe reality:

Real-world: I intended Lord Shadowspawn's involvement in the "Battle of Mindor" (from The Essential Chronology) to be the same Mindor (or Mindar!) from The Courtship of Princess Leia. So my first instinct was to tell you that they're alternate spellings for the same thing, e.g. Hezbollah/Hizbollah.

In-universe: But I decided to research it further, and now I'm of the conclusion that they could very well be different planets. The Essential Chronology's Mindor is in the Inner Rim, but COPL's Mindar is in the Kanchen sector of the Core Worlds -- according to the crappy "gameboard" map from the computer strategy game Rebellion -- but due to the general uselessness of that map I'm inclined to throw it out entirely.

So I guess I'm coming back to Mindor/Mindar as alternate spellings. That's what they honestly are, when you think about it.

Dan

 

And then there's the Lady of Mindor luxury cruiser, from the Han Solo Adventures, which backs up the o-spelling. Perhaps there really are two different planets, with similar names, and Voren confused them when writing his guides.

 

Since you brought up "Rebellion"...

Can you give us an idea of the general location of the "planet" Agrilat?

 

I've always wondered about that. The only thing I can think of is that it was named as such because of its similarity to Corellia's crystal swamps. The description of Dengar and Han racing there has to be a mistake, though.

Of course, that's not the only thing Rebellion kriffs up. Check out the description for Qat Chrystac: it describes a world of rolling, grassy plains, instead of a radioactive wasteland.

Between the map errors and the entry mistakes, I'm tempted to say that the entire Galactic Encyclopedia is one big in-universe screw up. Probably cobbled together by Squibs.

 

Forgot about that one... I usually give the SW computer games a lot of leeway, but Rebellion makes it reeeally difficult!

On the topic of same/different planets, what about Cadinth? Both "Mission of Lianna" and SW Galaxy magazine have a Cadinth in the Tion Cluster, while the online HNN has another Cadinth in the Mid-Rim. Is some of the info wrong, or is this another "Dorvalla/Dorvalla" situation?

 

Regarding the "is the entire galaxy settled or not" debate, I'm in general agreement with many of the points made by Charlii.

George Lucas has carte blanche to do whatever he wants in the movies. Sometimes those decisions conflict with the EU. It's the same issue as "Is the Republic 1,000 years old?" or "Is Anakin the first Jedi Knight to ever serve on the Council?" or "Is R4-P17 an R4 unit?" (Click here for Don Bies' excellent behind-the-scenes take on that last decision.)

When something like the above occurs, Lucas Licensing's decision isn't to throw out Tales of the Jedi, or to move it from 4,000 years BBY to 400 years. Licensing generally finds a solution that creates the fewest continuity ripples. Therefore, the "Ruusan Reformations" occured 1,000 years ago. Ki-Adi-Mundi was "in the process of becoming a Master" when he was named to the Council. Click here for R4-P17's tale.

George Lucas and Lucas Licensing aren't armies in conflict. It's all ultimately the same company. If the resulting official answer is that Palpatine was referring to the Ruusan Reformations, or that Jocasta Nu was referring to the extent of settled space, then as a writer, that's what I'm going to use. (If they suddenly decide to move the Unknown Regions to the galactic halo I'll use that too, but I haven't heard any hints of them doing so.)

As a fan, nobody has to accept any of this, but don't be surprised when official publications follow the "fewest ripples" interpretation.

Dan

 

Absolutely -- if they have telescopes, they can chart every star in the galaxy. Which doesn't mean they know what's around those stars.

It was Zahn who revealed that the Emperor had a complete galactic hologram in his stronghold on Wayland, complete with a holographic pinprick for every last star. It was also Zahn who said that the Unknown Regions comprised 75% of the galactic disk.

Dan

 

Well, Zahn is known for his minimalism and his hyperspeed velocities doesn't match the movies either (don't get me wrong, I love Zahn, but the EU tends to go off in its own direction when it comes to these sort of things).

And as I mentioned earlier, they have scanning equipments etc. so they would know exactly what's orbiting the planets. Also, and not to forget, in AOTC (and the AOTC screenplay) we learned that they can perform gravitiational scans from Coruscant to Wild Space which is how Obi-Wan learned the location of Kamino.

We also know from TPM and ROTS that hyperspace capable ships can travel many millions times the speed of light (both movies shows speeds in excess of 30 million c as opposed to the mere thousands of c as is often inferred in the EU, such as the Thrawn-trilogy). Even if hyperspace travel would be more difficult in certain areas, then they would've other means available to them.

 

I added a list of in-universe galaxy maps from the films and the EU to this page. The EU list is probably incomplete...

---

[quote=Dan Wallace]True. I considered WEG's "Slice = 1% of the galaxy" stat, but ultimately ignored it. I simply couldn't make it work with my starting info, which included the placements of most movie planets (Behind the Magic) and other known info about the Slice (such as a list of Slice planets...AJ #10?). The current size of the Slice is definitely a case of new information overriding old information. [/quote]
Is the Outer Rim between the Perlemian and the Corellian Run part of the Slice, not just the Core to Mid Rm region then?

[quote=Dan Wallace]Dagobah is in the Sluis sector. And because we already knew the position of Dagobah (from Behind the Magic), it meant I had to draw the Rimma at approximately a 6:00 position. Which involved some fudging, since the Rimma lined up rather poorly against regional borders... if I remember correctly, Eriadu became a real headache here as well. [/quote]
And does Minos Cluster border Kathol Sector now? The Rimma map (and the text in some WEG books) states that it does, but the "new" maps (NJO) show that it doesn't.

[quote=Dan Wallace][quote=Charlii]And on the issue of charts showing the entire Galaxy without blank areas: There are detailed starcharts of large parts of the Milky Way and the maps of Mars rivals the maps of Earth in accuresy. That doesn't mean that anyone have been to Mars or any other stars.[/quote]
Absolutely -- if they have telescopes, they can chart every star in the galaxy. Which doesn't mean they know what's [i]around [/i] those stars.

It was Zahn who revealed that the Emperor had a complete galactic hologram in his stronghold on Wayland, complete with a holographic pinprick for every last star. It was also Zahn who said that the Unknown Regions comprised 75% of the galactic disk. [face_wink]

Dan[/quote]
[i]"This hologram was sculpted in exquisite and absolutely unique detail, with a single accurately positioned spot of light for each of the galaxy's hundred billion stars."[/i] - The Last Command

The hologram's diameter was 20 metres. If we go with 180 billion star systems in tha galaxy then 1 cubic centimetre would contain about 1700 spots, and there would be 1.7 spots in a cubic millimetre . In the Deep Core, where stars are closer to each other, there would be a maximum of about 30 spots in a cubic millimetre. [face_nerd] [face_doh!]
[image=http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9346/thrawn2wc7.jpg]

 

I expect a new map in the Saga Edition, probably they will include one, with the ep3 planets. And what is this World Gazetteer??

Atraken: I got the impression that it is NOT between 000 and Nam Chorios and nowhere near Meridian Sector. Callista forwarded her letter from Atraken because she didn't want to be found.

Celanon: rimward of Meridian?

Saleucami and Boz Pity could be above/below Hutt Space.
And if there is a line what represents a border on a GALAXY MAP, then that doesn't mean that EVERY star system beyond that line is part of the actual government.

"We recognize no territorial claims beyond the boundaries of a single star system. "
- Article Eleven of the New Republic Common Charter: free navigation

Bimkall Sector! Remember Bimkall Sector!
Look at the previous pages for more discussion about the Hutt Space problem and this...

 

(Spits out sip of red wine)

WHAT! Did I read correctly in seeing that there will be new RPG materials new year?!?!

--Adm. Nick

 

Yep. I posted a video of the WotC presentation over in the Fleet Junkie thread, a couple of days ago...

Long story short, a new "Saga Edition" Core Rulebook is coming out March 07, intended to bring back the RPG and cover all 6 films. However, the system has been streamlined (merging certain feats, removing others, reformatting the classes, et cetera) so that it is more "miniatures friendly." I don't know what the World Gazetteer is, except that its part of the core rulebook and was mentioned on one of the presentation slides. I assume its something of a rundown of several worlds that can be used for campaigns, though it will most likely only cover planets seen in the movie.

Further supplements are planned, but they wouldn't comment on what they were. Again, I would think (and hope!) that they would be useful for both RPG and miniature campaigns.

 

That may be what they need to jump start the franchise. Now, RPers will have a new rule book plus a whole slew of mini figures and starships to use in their RPing.

Now it all makes sense...

--Adm. Nick