Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Possibly, but Wookieepedia (as often happens unfortunately) takes supposition and states it as fact, as well as refusing to address any contrary evidence.

 

Obligatory: Not canon, just me talking etc.

No, it wasn't my intent that every Ord was settled during a specific era. A town called Fort X might be called that because it was originally a fort, or it might be called that because eventually there are lots of towns with Fort as a prefix.

Also, it's certainly not true that every planet in a certain Atlas historical region was settled during that region's initial/major exploration. The SW galaxy is full of unexplored byways, even within areas that are fairly well mapped and settled.

That said, I understand how sometimes Wookieepedians wind up in these logical box canyons. The impulse to order things according to master plans is very powerful and the process is very satisfying. Without that impulse and that process, the Atlas never would have existed.

 

query for Jason
Is the Atlas supposed to be a single in-universe document, or an anthology of documents? are the "sector close-ups" part of the "primary document"? The "primary" document seems to be written about the time Outcast begins [not just because this is the last recorded event, but because the author knows stuff about the Prequel and pre-Prequel Eras that would have been unknown to writers in the NJO and earlier periods, ie Padme being the twins' mother, the Sifo-Dyas mystery, much of the history of the Killiks, Celesitals, Sith, and Rakata, such as the true backgrounds of Arbra and Xo); the "Epilogue" I assume is an addition by a later author; and the sector close-ups seem to be written EARLIER than the "primary" document, as they oft refer to systems being under Imperial control in a context hinting written during Rebellion Era [or arguably, at the time of the Epilogue, when the Empire was once again near-universal]

Most confusingly of all was the Senex-Juvex section, which said the human noble houses settled that area 1000 BBY, but that the Zylurians and Nartians had served the nobles for "millennia"--indicating this section was written after 1000 ABY?

re: ORDs
I think another thing to recall is that a star system can serve as an anchor or stopping point in a hyperlane long before it is actually settled; and a world can be settled in the midst of a government's territory without being part of that government [this is CERTAINLY true of Republic and New Republic, GFFA, etc.]; even Hutt Space has independent holdouts [cf. Saki and Riileb] and the Empire at its height had independent planets within its borders [cf. Dornea and Hapes]

a good example of how misinterpretation of the Atlas could happen:

p120 Galactic Explorations map
the orange area 20000-15000 includes Onderon, yet this planet was only discovered by the Republic c.4000 [I assume the hyperlane shown passing through Onderon either did not actually go through the system in 15000, or else was only formed c.4000 BBY or later]

I am glad to get your confirmation on the ORDs, although it looks like the example I chose, Ord Cestus, may not be the best, since Atlas does seem to hint it was an ORD far earlier than the 500's; I am not clear, though, how this matches scout Dashta coming there in the 500-400 BBY period, unless that was indeed a "rediscovery"--my understanding from the novel was that Cestus only became and ORD after the exiled Families settled there, but a re-read of the novel may be in order; still, Antalaha remains a good case of an ORD clearly est. in a later era

And Jedi Path remains clear prove that "ORD" was still a meaningful and functional, not just historic, prefix in the post-Ruusan era, so Antalaha being est. during CW fits in very nicely with that

mind you, I am not trying to hate on Wookieepedia, just point out a mistake; like Jason, I can appreciate how they want everything to have its place. Ideally, I would like the same. But I think we need to be rather conservative in placing fixed, absolute dates on everything, because doing so can just be creating coninuirty errors waiting to happen, especially with all this T-canon nonsense running rampant and the Old Republic MMORPG

 

Regarding O/RDs: In "The Written Word," I established that Ord Dalet, and some other O/RDs, are named after Common Sith letters as a result of defectors during the Old Sith Wars bringing that alphabet to the Republic military. This means it couldn't have acquired that name until some seven thousand years after Pius Dea Era ended.

I took the aforementioned Ord Antalaha as proof that the Republic was still establishing O/RDs well after the Pius Dea Era, and cited that world in my internal notes to Lucasfilm regarding Ord Dalet after the Atlas revealed the Crusade angle.

(Edit: Re-organized for clarity.)

 

Wait...I'm confused. So the Sith language is based on Hebrew?

 

It's not as much based on Hebrew anymore, as it is Hebrew in the same manner that Basic = English. Latin, another previous joint basis for Sith language, has largely been pushed aside. Latin, pretty much, is now the High Galactic language.

 

of course, I assume English will be used for dialogue in Dawn of the Jedi, and this may be the first major publication save A Forest Apart where it does NOT represent modern Basic

JSarek and I were discussing this last night, and apparently Modern Basic only came about between 15609 and 5000 BBY

Core Rulebook indicates Bothawuese is a contributing language to Modern Basic, and Republic/Bothan contact happens post-17000 BBY acc to Atlas, which indicates it had not happened as of the First Alsakan Conflict

JSarek pointed out a source Mid-Galactic Standard was still un use in 15609 BBY acc to Xim Week: The Despotica; note this fits in nicely with the WOTC/Atlas info I mentioned above

and Modern Basic is obviously in use by 5000 BBY, as the characters in Crosscurrent all speak the same language, and vestara and ben don't need C-3PO to flirt

mind you, I'm not clear WHAT language people spoke on Tython as of Dawn of the Jedi...Old High Galactic, I suppose? is that why Jedi have a tradition of Old High Galactic names?

 

so Sarek, when exactly were these Sith defections? Prior to the massacre of Katarr in 3952, I assume, but can you narrow it down more than that?

Jason: You placed Ota near Thornhedge--were you indicating Kyyr Nebula caused the downfall of the advnaced snogar civilization? and I never found out what "ancient" civ alashan belonged to and when it existed--Rakata, Sith, Celestial, etc. Did you give some clue in Atlas, or did you leave this a mystery?

 

I can't recall why Ota wound up where it did. Probably just because it had to go somewhere. No connection with the Snogars was meant that I remember. Nor do I remember hints about Alashan.

Re in-universe, yeah, I guess you'd say it's in-universe but not from one consistent time of authorship. Though the question makes my head hurt more than anything. It's a book; we thought most of all about how to make it clear and entertaining as a book. I wouldn't draw any conclusion from the Senex/Juvex thing. It sounds like I just screwed up and it should have read "centuries." I'll put that one on the list of fixes to make someday.

When my personal dust settles a bit I'll talk to folks about a couple of Atlas updates I'd love to see get done, if LFL is game. Modi's map shown at C5 is phenomenal and really begs to be seen, and I'd love to finish up the Expansion Region sectors, though unfortunately I don't have time right now. And I'd love to get another appendix update out there, though I might have to wait so as to include WARFARE and its deluge of new systems. I'll do my best....

 

I should point out that, to my knowledge, it's the ONLY source for Mid-Galactic Standard.

My preferred example, while it doesn't go back the full five thousand years, is Celeste Morne in Vector. Girl wakes up after nearly four thousand years in a magic crate, and she is IMMEDIATELY conversant with the first person she meets.

Theoretically, at this point in the timeline, neither High Galactic nor Old Galactic Standard have been forged from Old Coruscanti. I would expect most humans to speak local languages, with Old Coruscanti, Old Tionese, and either Pre-Corellian or Old Corellian as possible lingua franca depending on where the humans are drawn from.

The article is vague on the topic, and I imagine there were at least some defectors in each of the Old Sith Wars. Specifically, though, I was thinking about the dynamic of the Jedi Civil War and the Dark Wars. During the Jedi Civil War, large numbers of Republic forces joined Revan and Malak. Then, a series of events would have encouraged counter-defections back: first the loss of Revan to the Jedi, then Jedi-aligned Revan's defeat of Malak and end of the war, then finally the fragmentation of the Sith and subsequent Dark Wars. This last event is explicitly compared to the early days of the New Republic in the KOTOR Campaign Guide, and there was no shortage of defecting Imperials during that era, either.

 

Jason: Sorry I made your head hurt! I supposed an easy fix is that the Nartians and Zylurians were already servants to non-human local nobles in the Senex-Juvex area, and then just continued in that role after the human nobles came from the Core? It would not be the first time a group kept its inferior "place" in society during the transition from one government to another; Gamorreans seem to be cheap thugs regardless of WHAT government is in power, whether Hutt, Sith, or Imperial Remnant

Sarek: I was guessing pre-Katarr, because post-Katarr there weren't really any Jedi for Sith to defect TO, so to speak, until the Wars were over

AdmiralAckbar: did you notice Galaxy of Intrigue mentions there's a penal colony on one of Dac's moons?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Syned_I

wait, is Wookieepedia correct that Azzameen Station is in Syned system? I though Azzameen's moon orbited a gas giant, not an ice world

I don't see how Gamemaster Screen could mention Azzameens, and i don't recall this from the Atlas updates, so if it is true, the source must be in the game (which I don't own), and Atlas is in error

 

For the most part, we're not talking Force-sensitives here. We're talking about the rank-and-file of the Republic and Sith Empire.

 

ah, ah, ok, I wasn't so clear on that...I was trying to imagine why so many Sith would be defecting to the Republic....


people under their thumbs doing so does make more sense

ok, some more atlas thoughts

I noticed Alzoc was a Rakatan world. Is this an attempt by Dan and Jason to explain how a colony of them got onto Orto Plutonia?

Also, the Vong conquered and controlled Horuz, Ruusan, and and The Wheel. Interesting...

so, a species cut off from the Force conquers a planet with a Force Well...possibilities here? could this be how Vongerella got to be F-S? [my other theory is she is the court jester Onimi's illegitimate daughter and inherited his mutation]

Hourz...hmmm, that would be Despayre...the Death Star blew the planet up...so what did the Vong conquer? Haroon? If so, that would answer the question on whether or not Haroon got blown up from Despayre's shockwave Are there other planets in Horuz system?

and the Wheel. I recall Dan said Master-Com helped defend the Wheel, but I didn't realize the Vong had succeeded in conquering it. I'm surprised they didn't destroy such an abomination, yet its still around in Legacy. Odd...

 

The Legacy Era CG noted that the Wheel managed to escape "permanent damage" in the invasion.

 

Can we be sure that's not just dramatic license, though? A lot of other sci-fi stories and shows have had plotlines like this; where someone from thousands of years ago returns and is still able to communicate...Earth: Final Conflict comes to mind...

TC

 

You might be able to argue that for Vector, but Crosscurrent explicitly made the point that while there was some "odd" pronunciations by those from the past, they still spoke the same language.

 

Further, you have to ask just what "really happened" in that scene if dramatic license is at play, since it doesn't make any sense if they don't have SOME way to communicate. Did our heroes learn Mid-Galactic Standard at some point? Were there translator droids we didn't see? Did they play a really good game of charades?

Dramatic license is just fine, so long as you don't have to try and make sense of it after the fact. And that's all we here at Lit do.

 

The fact that they were able to talk doesn't necessarily mean that they were speaking identically; you've got languages like Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian that are mutually intelligible while still being distinct languages. I'd assume a similar situation here: there are significant differences, but not enough to make them unintelligible to each other.

 

and how did the Wheel escape permanent damage if the Vong controlled it? I just can't see them leaving a station intact without an interesting reason....

EDIT: Also, The Vong conquered Honoghr. I wonder if they Vongformed it? one planet where that could actually be useful

 

Vonglife + Toxic Sludge = ...

 

Possibly if the station was abandoned before they arrived, they wouldn't waste the time destroying it...

 

that seems not to be the case, since we know Master Com helped in its defense

also, if not the station, what is there in the system for them to be in control of?

given the Vong religion, the very existence of the station would be an abomination, so I can't imagine them NOT destroying it if they controlled the system, unless they had a specific reason to leave it be

 

Well, let's see the sources:

"[Master-Com] helped Wheel administrator Big Bunji battle the Yuuzhan Vong during the invaders' attack on the station." - NEGD, p. 15

"Thanks to its isolated location, The Wheel even managed to escape permanent damage during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion and often served as a safe transfer point for refugee starships." - LECG, p. 205

Of course, there's also the point that Big Bunji was the administrator of the Jubilee Wheel orbiting Ord Mantell, attacked in Agents of Chaos I... which leads to this comment by Dan Wallace when asked about the NEGD reference:

"It's definitely the implication. Now, there are definitely some structural differences between the two according to published art, but I'm fond of the Jubilee Wheel as a reconstructed Marvel Wheel. At a minimum, the NEGTD entry necessitates that the original Wheel and the Jubilee Wheel use the same computer core."

So, the attack in NEGD was the Ord Mantell one, apparently.

 

Given this conversation, I thought I would share something that I have been working on with another user at the Wookieepedia. As part of our Coordinate Challenge, we have listed all sentient and semi-sentient species by the grid loction of their homeworld. Accordingly, for the Dalonbian sector, which encompasses parts of grids L-2, L-3, M-2 and M-3, the neighboring species are as follows:

L-2: Gree, Revwien.
L-3: Laerdocian.
M-2: Felin.
M-3: None.

Some of the others mentioned Sinrebirth are slightly further afield, but still listed. I hope this is of use and interest! Oh, and conveniently, the species are all linked to, which will help with you research.

~ Eyrezer