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Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CeiranHarmony, Oct 14, 2005.

  1. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2003
    Hey, speaking of Grand Moffs, here's a nice political border map question: would you consider kindly putting in a map showing the boundaries of the Oversectors that Palpatine gave over to the Grand Moffs to govern? Tarkin governed Oversector Outer, which encompassed most of the Outer Rim, which later fell into Kaine's control. A piece - encompassing the Bajic Sector - was probably broken off for Kintaro. There was also the Imperial Sector Oversector, which encompassed Coruscant and whose military command center was Anaxes (that one may have been your own handiwork, Jason). There may have been others. But is it possible that the boundaries of these Oversectors could be fixed at long last?

    As a side issue, which is it going to be in the ATLAS: is it gonna be spelled Atrivis Sector with an "i" (my preference) or Atravis Sector with an "a" (a typo, I believe)? Or are you going to do both and make what I presumed to be a typo into something that fits? Examine the history of the Atrivis/Atravis issue and what fits best where before you decide. But please straighten it out, if you could, preferably by eliminating "Atravis with an a."

    Thank you again, Jason!
     
  2. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    >If Stenos is in the Gordian Reach, then it's in two Grand Moff's jurisdictions. Three, if you include Tarkin/Kaine. Though one supposes Grand Moff Nivers could be Kaine's replacement?<

    Personally, I think that the Grand Moff's power was diluted after the whole Trachta debacle, with more and less competant Grand Moffs being appointed to smaller and smaller territories.

    TC
     
  3. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2003
    I've always considered Atravis a typo for Atrivis. Mrlsst and Mrisst, OTOH, may be too ingrained as separate entities in the EU to put right.

    I like the idea of a map of the oversectors, but it may be beyond our purview for the book -- it would take making up a fair amount of stuff out of whole cloth. But (as drafted) there is a section on the moffs, Grand Moffs, and sectors, regional sectors and oversectors that Dan and I hope will be well-received.

    Clearing up Vong invasion questions sounds like something we could and should do.
     
  4. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    I think "may be" is an understatement. Alien Encounters, among other sources, made the two species completely different. There's no going back without trampling a lot of EU to do so.
     
  5. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2003
    For Mrlsst/Mrisst, probably, but for Atravis/Atrivis, not so much. Hell, even the Wookieepedia article on Atravis Sector has nothing of any importance that can't be adjusted to account for the typo. If it's in SEVERAL sources, or if it's somehow infiltrated into actual stories, THEN you have a problem that would require some EU-trampling. And even if it did, it's not so serious that trampling it equates with, say, rewriting the Death Star origin story. I just have a severe problem with Children of the Jedi establishing two Imperial massacres in two sectors that are different only by one letter. If there were, then that very coincidence has to be addressed somehow, or it will still stick out like a sore thumb. I think you and Fry agree on the Mrlsst/Mrisst issue, jSarek, but on the Atravis/Atrivis issue I'm calling for a rewrite and eliminating the typo.
     
  6. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    CotJ is full of mispellings the author intended to be allusions to WEG, like Bilanaka/Balinaka, so of COURSE Atrivis=Atravis.

    HNN also made it clear Mrissti and Mrlssti are different

    accidentally posted the following under Aliens of the Empire, but it was meant to go here:

    ===
    some thoughts on Gordian Reach

    Nivers controlled Tandankin only one day, after the Battle of Endor. Here is my speculative timeline

    1) Tarkin is Grand Moff of Oversector Outer, incl. Gordian Reach; at this time, Matrin is a Senator

    2) Emperor disbands Senate and Tarkin dies; Gordian Reach is made part of Grand Moff Vellam's Bright Jewel Oversector

    3) due to the failure of the Yavin Blockade, Gordian Reach is removed from Vellam's oversector, and made part of "Kessel Oversector" under Grand Moff Hissa, who appoints ex-Senator Matrin Governor of Stenos

    4) the Stenaxes kill Matrin for violating Vol

    5) the Emperor dies, and Isard and Hissa end up in opposing factions

    6) Isard's faction takes Gordian Reach from Hissa and Isard appoints HER own Grand Moff over it, Nivers

    7) as part of taking over Gordian Reach, Nivers occupies Tandankin, but that same day the planet is liberated by Rogue Squadron
     
  7. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

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    Feb 18, 2005
    Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear: I was only claiming that the bird worlds were too far gone, not the Atrivis/Atravis issue.
     
  8. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    hey, GATORW indicated Makem Te was home to the "Tract", one of the Wonders of the Galaxy.

    If an Earth historical atlas inc the Wonders of the World, it seems to me the SW Atlas should include a brief summary of the Wonders of the Galaxy and their locations;)

    another thought: we know from comics and cartoons there are well over 2 dozen races on Endor; GATORW clarified only three (apparently the Yuzzum, Dulok, and Ewok) are actually native, the rest are victims of shipwrecks, so the Atlas should make sure to show all these races original homeworlds, maybe a chart showing the origins of the shipwrecks with dates. We need "Phlogius", "Tulgah Prime", etc. Endor will surely be a highlighted world that could explain some of this.

    P.S.
    The Tchuukthai--in Thon's day, homeworld unknown, in (then) Unknown Regions, species name unknown, nicknamed "Wharls" by Old Republic. [TOTJC]

    By C-3PO's day [Courtship of Princess Leia]], the planet was apparently in (by then) Known Space, as C-3PO knew the proper species name, "Tchuukthai", and even could recite their love poetry for Han.

    So I would say its closer to Core than Adumar, but further away than Ord Mantell? and it does need a name
     
  9. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Okay, I'm going to mention a retcon that's been floating around in my head for quite a while, since it seems the Atlas might be something that could make or break it. There are a bunch of catlike aliens in Star Wars, so many that Pablo [link=http://www.starwars.com/hyperspace/member/insideronline/90/indexp4.html]once said[/link] "If this list proves anything, it's that there should be a moratorium on any new feline races added to the Star Wars galaxy." Well, I think two of them might actually be only one.

    In Star Wars Annual #1, we're introduced to the Catuman Warriors, "feline mercenaries said to be fury incarnate, among the deadliest killers in existence." However, the comic never explicitly calls Catuman their species, nor names their homeworld. At one point, Han calls one a "Cat," which isn't surprising as either a descriptive term OR as a shortening of "Catuman," but noteworthy for another reason . . .

    In Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments From the Rim (and reprinted [link=http://www.starwars.com/hyperspace/member/sourcearchive/news20070629.html]here[/link]), we learn that Alliance Special Operations personnel use the term "Cat" for a species called the Orryxians ("not that any Orryxian would appreciate this"). This tells us that A)SpecOps folks run into Orryxians often enough to have a nickname for them, and B)They stand out as important enough to SpecOps personnel to call them "Cat" over all of the other felinoid species.

    Maybe it's because they keep running into deadly Orryxian mercenaries, raised in the Catuman Warrior tradition of the species?

    Anyway, the reason I bring it up here is that, given your stated goals, it's likely you're trying to place both Orryxia and the Catuman homeworld, so I thought I should present the possibility that it might be more interesting if there WEREN'T two separate worlds, and that including both would preclude the possibility of making an interesting connection.
     
  10. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    about Hoszh Iszhir--the Gektls were reknowned artists since the "early days of the Republic", so I would place it in eastern Core worlds near Coruscant, Corellia, etc. If I may suggest a retcon, since Hoszh Iszhir is the GEKTL homeworld, perhaps it is in the GEKTO system mentioned in Jade Solitaire?

    the article seems to suggest Rahz was in charge of securing worlds near his own homeworld, so Harix and Kar'a'katok are probably also in Core, near Hoszh Iszhir. Given Kar'a'latok's tie in to the Nelroni Marauders, I am guessing all of these worlds are in the Core near the Hyabb-Twith Corridor.

    I take it Shiva is supposed to be along the Jahilid Drift like Pral and Koltine (the other worlds Sk'ar conquers); the original comic seemed to indicate Shiva was in what WEG would call "Wild Space" so I would guess these Drift worlds are in Wild space rinward of Kalee; it would make sense for Sk'ar, already an accomplished warlord, to be assigned to conquer an area of space he might already have been familiar with

    Pral and Koltine sound new, I don't recall such worlds, can't find them on Wiki or CUSWE

     
  11. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    going back over the article:

    "Palpatine was impressed by Sk'ar's courage and strength, which he knew could serve him well in bringing in line some of the more rebellious planets on the edge of known space."

    aha, so Jahilid Drift IS in Wild Space, which almost guarantees this is where Able intends Shiva IV to be

    Thrawn wipes out Kalee after the Kaleesh resisted the Empire over a decade, then Sk'ar surrenders, and "It wasn't long before" Sk'ar conquers the Jahilid Drift (leading up to his death on Shiva IV). OK, initially I was thinking Thrawn must have destroyed Kalee ca. 8 BBY ("over a decade" after the Empire is founded 19 BBY). However, Abel also says that the Necrosis mask was purchased by Captain Thrawn ca. 1.5 ABY (time of Galaxies). Did he do this BECAUSE he had failed to understand Kaleesh art, or is the mask the Kaleesh art he studied in preparation to attack Kalee? If the latter, the near-destruction must happen ca. 1.5-3 ABY, and the Empire must not have started trying to conquer the planet when the Empire was formed, but only about ca. 10 BBY at earliest. This latter explanation may make good sense, as Abel makes it sound like only a short time passes between the devastation of Kalee and the attack on Shiva IV.

    As for Rahz, "the Emperor granted Rahz a commission in the Imperial military, assigning him to keep the planets in his star system in line." Note his authority: the planetS in HIS star system. Does this mean Kar'a'katak, Hoszh Iszhir, and Harix are all planets in the same system?
     
  12. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    I'll confirm j's eagle-eye on the Mrissi/Mrlsst split, which Alien Encounters really tried to drive home with accompanying artwork for the distinct species. One of the stranger retcons in Star Wars, but when push comes to shove, I'm glad WEG went for it. Mrissi design is very cool, and I've been looking for an opportunity to use the species for some time.

    That makes sense. I'm not adverse to the Gektl/Gekto idea, and I doubt Rich would be either.

    Those seem like reasonable inferences but not necessary ones; we'll ultimately defer to Jason and Dan to determine the most adequate placement.

    I believe Rich made these up.

    Rich actually wrote most of Sk'ar bio. A Wild Space placement does seem reasonable, but again, we defer to our favorite cartographers.

    I imagined it would be the former. Note also that Thrawn's contest with Sk'ar took place while he was still a captain, while Grievous/Necrosis' mask (reportedly) came into his possession only after he was an Admiral (or even Grand Admiral).

    Thrawn's attack probably didn't happen after ANH. On the second point, I'll say that if the lapse of time is ambiguous, that isn't an accident. Canonistas may exploit this to whatever effect makes the most sense.

     
  13. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

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    Jul 19, 2003
    If I understand Abel correctly, I was reading too much into that to think that Harix and Kar'a'katok had to be in the same system as Hoszh Iszhir. The more I think about it, the less likely that seems. Hoszh Iszhir sounds like its a Core Founder or something (certainly famous), whereas Kar'a'katok is an isolated and practically unknown world; its highly UNLIKELY they are in the same system. It would be like the Valley of the Jedi being next door to the Imperial Palace.
     
  14. Eyrezer

    Eyrezer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Jason, because the Atlas is focused on the star system level, I presume most systems will bear the name of a/the major planet in it. Is that correct? And are you planning on putting any currently unplaced planets in the same system? If so, how will that work?
     
  15. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    I have updated the Atlas's Wookieepedia entry to include as much info as I could find Jason had revealed here. For anyone who doesn't want to read through this entire thread, I hope it will prove a sufficient summary.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Essential_Atlas

    You know, as overjoyed as I am about this upcoming Atlas, I also have a perverse sadness. The answers to our questions will leave us with fewer mysteries.

    Or will it really? Will the placements in the Atlas lead to new questions;) ?

    I hope all future authors will consult this Atlas. I have noticed in-novel geography references in Star Trek novels have been much more consistent since Star Charts came out, I hope the Atlas will have a similar effect. It would be nice if future authors introduced new planets with their galactic coordinates. That should be required on all future RPG planet entries;)

    Imagine how long such coordinates will take to add to our own Wookieepedia entries. We will have to modify the table;)
     
  16. Eyrezer

    Eyrezer Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Great work on the summary Cilghal.
     
  17. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    thought for the day:

    I sure hope the new Atlas includes Vvaw. Its my PC's homeworld! And its canon!

    I want a pic of the Viraanntesse so very badly!
     
  18. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

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    Jul 19, 2003
    I can understand Atrivis being too obscure for the "casual" fan, but Tion...it was the setting of two of the Han Solo books, various RPG adventures, a Jedi oneshot comic, and a NJO book!

    Dare I ask if the Corporate Sector gets a detailed map?
     
  19. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

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    Jul 19, 2003
    ok, gang, does anyone have a list of non-mainstream governments? IE, multi-planetary powers outside the Republic-Empire-Alliance?
     
  20. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

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    Nov 11, 2003
    Hey folks, been working on regional maps and following the placement dominoes from Abel and Rich's article. Answers re some recent stuff, subject to the usual caveat about being in draft:

    * I wouldn't get your hopes up re alien homeworlds, beyond simple stuff like the Planetnamian species getting a Planetnamia on the map or things Dan and I can account for with a relatively quick reference. The backstories/systems of origin for all those Endor species would be a great article, but I think text is too precious in the ATLAS for it to be the place. Still, we'll look for opportunities as they arise.

    * Re unplaced planets going in existing systems, I'm inclined to say no -- the galaxy's a big place, and philosophically I tend to err on the side of making it seem bigger. (It still kind of bugs me that Trandoshans and Wookiees are from the same system, for instance.) There would be exceptions, natch: The Gektls being from the Gekto system strikes me as both a cool idea and a logical one. BTW, that's a good example of planet name vs. system name: In that case, I'd be inclined to list/map the system as Hoszh Iszhir, not Gekto, presuming that in most cases people would know the name of the dominant planet far better than the name of the system.

    * Re Sk'ar, as with penal colonies I'd argue there's an equally good or even better case that he would have been assigned somewhere far from Kalee. Seems to me that, particularly with an alien who'd likely be a point of species pride, giving someone duties close to their home system would encourage separatist ambitions. Granted, the Emperor is devious, and sometimes might seek to draw out a dangerous being by encouraging such ambitions....

    Oh: I think you'll be happy with our look at the Corporate Sector. We were able to unearth some very cool old stuff that deserves another chance at life.
     
  21. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

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    Jul 19, 2003
    lol, I made the mistake of thinking Jason forgot to place Mugaar in the Greater Javin article on WOTC; he elucidated that Mugaar is located in Javin, but not in the part of that sector highlighted on the WOTC map. He assured me it is on the map.

    Jason's comments about S'kar make sense. I guess I was thinking of where a military commander would send a TRUSTED underling. Jason is correct the Emperor moves his pawns in less predictable ways;)

    Jason: OK, in the case of System name versus Planet name, will the index include cross references, so that any planet can be found under the alternate name. For example, "Gekto system...see Hoszh Iszhir", "Trandosha...see Kashyyyk system", etc.????

    I understand that the species homeworld thing is difficult, though I at least hope movie aliens will all get their homeworlds shown. a little dot labeled "Yoda's homeworld" would make me smile. And I would like to see "Papilio" canonized as the Hamadryas homeworld, per the intention of Vitas.
     
  22. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

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    Feb 18, 2005
    Given it seems Dan and Jason currently plan to provide most, if not all "Planetnamian species" with a Planetnamia on the map, this should be covered for almost all movie aliens . . .

    . . . but probably not that one. If Lucas isn't ready for the species to be named, we can bet he's not ready to have their homeworld placed.

    I screwed up when I told you the name; it's actually "Papio" he had in mind. He discusses it [link=http://blogs.starwars.com/swenc/42]here[/link].
     
  23. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    ok, here is a carto question thats long bugged me, though this one is directed more at Dan than Jason

    why place Garos IV in Mid Rim?

    I think this placement originated in ye olde EGP&M

    from the Alex stories, I get the feeling Garos IV is in Core; the resistance expects Garos IV to be almost immediately taken from the Empire by NR when Coruscant falls

    plus, on Charlene Newcomb's own website, she places Garos IV in core, which is not canon, but does prove that was her intent in the stories
     
  24. Sompeetalay

    Sompeetalay Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 1999
    I must admit, I'm already getting a bit nervous about the Essential Atlas. I'm sure it'll be a blast! I'm afraid I'll have a lot of work on Yodapedia to correct or add new information.

    I really hope the planets and systems from the Droid & Clone Wars Cartoons will have their place in the book such as Dandelo, Zelakesh, Manda and Biitu.

    Btw: I like what you said about the Corporate Sector. This is one of my favorite regions in the Galaxy :)
     
  25. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2003
    Seeing how

    I am having mixed reactions to the November delay.

    I am impatient, to be sure, but the delay will hopefully give the authors more time to make sure the Atlas is all the more accurate.

    Som: No worries, I am sure. Jason and Dan are big fans of the cartoons. I am sure they won't disappoint you; and they intend to place everything. In fact, IIIRC, it was Jason who did the ROON section of GATORW.