Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Could you link me to that thread?

 

With regard to the film dates:

ANH already had one from GWNN in the old Adventure Journals. That was just a matter of checking on the date of the dissolution of the Senate versus the start of the film, which was in Holocron information that Leland Chee sent along for me to use.

ESB already had one from GWNN as well. This is where the question of treating these as 10-month or 12-month dates came in, but we were reminded to use the 12-month calendar for all of the Atlas dates, so this became the first time that a 10-month calendar date was said that it should be treated as 12-month, which Leland later confirmed for other old 10-month dates on the official site's forum. (For those concerned about Fete Weeks and such, bear in mind that holiday periods, like, say, Ramadan, are on our calendars too, and they are counted as overlapping with the months they are in. That's one of the concessions, I suppose, of having a 12-month calendar these days rather than the old WEG 10-month one.)

ROTJ: We had to double-check that, yes, a year relative to ANH really is relative to ANH (35:3), not to the beginning of the year that happens to have ANH in it. That meant that ROTJ was either in 39:3 (4 years after ANH) or 39:6 (1 year after ESB). We went with the one that caused the least date headaches with the earlier Bantam stuff (when post-ROTJ stories were always dated in time after ROTJ for several years, rather than using BBY/ABY). Thus, it became 4 years after ANH, not exactly 1 year after ESB. (Personally, I find it rather fitting that Palpy would lay his trap to try to draw in the Rebels on the anniversary, given how many times we've seen terror-mongers in real life use anniversaries for added psychological blows. Note that the film, though, starts around the same time, but the events are not necessarily the same duration. But yeah, I was able to "create" (more like derive) that date for Leland's approval.

TPM: This one already had a date in the Holocron when Leland sent me info. It was basically based on the same reasoning that I've used on the SWT-G for years with regard to when Anakin must have been born within a given year.

AOTC: Already had a date from Holonet News.

ROTS: Already had TWO dates. Holonet News and other sources used one date, but then Karen Traviss basically rewrote all the dates (at least via 12-month calendar) for "Order 66." I had to check with Leland as to which we could use, and he confirmed that it was the original dates, not Order 66 dates, which should prevail. Thus, that confirmed the ROTS date . . . and then I left a typo in an email that no one saw to fix and the ROTS map got a date one year earlier than it should've been. We've added it to the errata that Jason is compiling.

In any event, the guiding principle with regard to the digital vs. BBY/ABY dating was that the BBY/ABY dating is, in fact, based on weeks, months, years, etc. in relation to the Battle of Yavin, NOT to "January 1" (so to speak) of the year of the Battle of Yavin, which would make very little logical sense if referring to dates as "before" or "after" the Battle of Yavin. As I confirmed with Leland, a year relative to ANH is NOT Month 1 through Month 12. It is Month 3 through Month 2 of the next digital year. It's two calendars, just like we see in various Earth cultures. The digital one is just very, very underused in the Classic era, since most prefer to use BBY/ABY dating to commemorate the New Republic. That is why, for example, the events of Rogue Squadron (2.5 years after ROTJ, or 6.5 years after ANH) begin at 41:9, not 41:6.

I hope that helps clear up any confusion. All was run by Leland, with a lot of questions back and forth, but the only "new" date for the films was ROTJ, which was more like giving a digital number to go with a date that was already somewhat obvious to begin with.

 

He is indeed. And I'll bet that if he just talks us through the rationale he used to get to this date, then I might be persuaded to stand by it. He'd have to account for the Darklighter problem, if it even is a problem, but I'll certainly be willing to listen. It's not like he makes these calls randomly; he'd only do it if he felt his data was good. If he shows us that, I'd bet it'd sell.

I'm only around a little, as I don't usually check over here, and I'm not online now as much as I was during the summer (er, summer break from teaching, I suppose). Did I answer what you were wondering about, or was there something else I didn't notice?

 

Well, Nathan, I'm glad that you dropped by to answer the question. I understand your rationale in the large-scale, given that Leland probably laid down some guidelines you were constrained to observe. But as I said, the Battleground: Tatooine bit represents a small-scale flub that the date may - or may not - have caused. Could you address this specific point? Would the adjustment of a date by one or two months to address that stray outside the bounds you were asked to observe?

I understand from your audio account of your work on the book that you were not asked to come up with dates regarding the Dark Empire comic trilogy events. Given what you have done now for the Atlas, could you provide some insight as to what those dates COULD be, even though it may not be considered canon?

 

I'm not sure what you're referring to with Battleground: Tatooine. Could you elaborate?

As for Dark Empire, I would simply assume that if the official date remains 10 ABY, then it'd be sometime in 45:3, at least as a starting point. I haven't gone through Dark Empire on a day-by-day basis like I did with the books we were tasked with going through.

The big thing with Dark Empire, for me, was that I'm a huge fan of the original DE and its audio drama, but both claim that the Empire strikes Coruscant within days of Thrawn's defeat, which is completely inconsistent with the duration of Isard's Revenge. Given that, the concern in 9 ABY was to make sure there was room left for the full duration of Isard's Revenge (but not too much), which I did research, and enough time for the entire Thrawn Trilogy (but not starting any sooner than 9 ABY, so no sooner than 44:3). It just so happened that it also allowed for the old "Were the twins conceived during Tatooine Ghost" issue to be addressed as well, given the range we were able to work with. Once Isard's Revenge "poo-pooed" the idea of a "days later" attack by the Empire against Coruscant, though, the date for Dark Empire became somewhat irrelevant, as long as it remained very early in 10 ABY (so 45:3 or so).



I should also add, by the way, that some of these Holocron dates, such as that for Tatoonie Ghost, are given in tenths or hundredths of a year, in decimal form in relation to ANH. For example, TG is 8.66 (or 8.67, I forget) years after ANH. ROTJ is 4 years after ANH, not 3.83 years after ANH, hence its date in Month 3, just like ANH. (Putting ROTJ in Month 1, as some suggest, would also close the gap with ESB from 9 months, already shorter than a full year, to only six months or so.)

 

Technically, it's twelve parsecs "south" of the Rishi Maze. But maybe that still counts as being "in" the Rishi Maze?

 

Well it's on a different plane than the rest of the galaxy. It's kind of a lone star system in between the main galaxy and the satellite galaxy.

 

For the 'six warlords' who reclaimed Coruscant with the forces of the Advisors, I assume that Harrsk, Teradoc, Delvardus and Kaine were those six?

Who were the other two? General Balan and Moff Brill? I've heard fan theories suggesting anyone from Baron Ulric Tagge to Vice Admiral Pellaeon (if Pellaeon really did run off with Thrawn's personal command fleet after Bilbringi to Wild Space, he could count as a warlord of sorts) though.

 

Aha! I found the post about Battleground: Tatooine.

I would simply say that the memorial would likely have been fit into the Rogues rotation schedule, or some other in-universe explanation. Having the anniversary shortly after ROTJ really never made much logical sense in light of the relative date of ROTJ in the first place. The main concern was in keeping the film dates consistent and logical relative to each other (especially with ESB in a different month of the year than ANH, somewhat mucking up the situation for ROTJ).

The question, though, was always, "Does ROTJ go into 39:3 in relation to ANH, or does it go in 39:6 in relation to ESB." There was never any consideration with regard to placing ROTJ even earlier, closer to ESB and closer to ANH, in contradiction to decades of "4 ABY" dating.

There's no existing retcon that I know of, though, no.

 

I'd be happy to elaborate, and thank you again for your interest (by the way, I'm listening to your Butlerverse audio ac**** of the Atlas work as I'm writing).

To make it simple: we now have Jedi set on 39:3. With one exception, I can find no fault with that. the exception, however, is this: the X-Wing comic Battleground:Tatooine includes in the story a scene on the Darklighter estate where they have an ice sculpture of Biggs put up to commemorate the anniversary of his death at Yavin - a death which occured in 35:3.

Ordinarily there'd be nothing wrong with it, except that there's a lot of stories that take place in between these two stories, Jedi and Battleground, that have to then be fit into a period of less than a week if they're to fit: Truce at Bakura, Rebel Opposition, Phantom Affair, and so on. To account for these adventures in between, I had long ago presumed the date of Jedi to be 39:1 or thereabouts. That way, Battleground, being set in 39:3, would fit well. I have no personal problem with the date for the film as chosen, but that admittedly-small problem would eventually have to be addressed somewhere, somehow, by someone.

That's my only nitpick. I hope you can address it. If not, please understand that it in no way impacts my enjoyment of your contribution to the book.

EDIT: I see you have addressed this specific topic while I was rewriting it for you. Thank you again for that! And, of course, for your magnificent contribution to one of the best reference works to come out of the franchise in a LONG time.

 

So does Executor still launch at 6 months after Yavin or did they change that?

 

So what exactly happened to the Empire of the Hand and how large was its territory and military?

I will buy the Atlas, I just can't get to the bookstore until the next supermarket trip.

 

OK, I have a possible retcon here, straight from the comic itself. Winter and Kapp Dendo have a conversation:

Winter: Admiral Ackbar has sent Rogue Squadron to assist us. Four of the flyers ar here already. The other three arrive later today. Their cover is a reception Huff Darklighter is holding to honor the anniversary of the death of his son, Biggs.
Dendo: What does this do to our cover?
Winter: Their cover becomes my cover.

So the key word becomes "cover," i.e. that the shindig was arranged specifically as a cover story. Yes, Huff would have rubbed Wedge's nose in it for all it was worth, but i was still a sham to cover an intelligence op. I mean, who's gonna call him on it? How many people in Mos Eisley know what specific date a rich person's son dies? It could sell as a cover among these desert rubes.

So yes, in actuality, the Rogues would have been a few months late for the actual anniversary, but only they and Huff have to know that.

Problem solved! Whaddya think?

 

@ Varn (Yoda Stories) and Dubrillion (Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike) being listed as Superlaser test sites.

 

Couldn't it be a date that's not an exact anniversary?

I guess I don't see why, say, "10 ABY" means exactly ten years after the Battle of Yavin and not a span of time like calendar years do.

 

Actually, Nathan, setting DE1 there addresses a minor concern I've had about it from the beginning. DE2 was always set in 10 ABY, but DE3 - aka Empire's End - was always set in 11 ABY. And yet DE3 begins practically right after D2! This always meant to me that it meant DE2 ended in 45:12 with Anakin's birth and DE3 began the following month, in 46:1. But now the setting of DE1 in 45:3 actually makes that work spectacularly, since it gives exactly nine months for Anakin Solo - implied to be conceived in DE1 according to the audiobook version - to come to term, just like babies everywhere! And if they wanna set DE3 in, say, 46:3, it still works out, because Anakin will still be only two months old at the most, and still an infant that would have to be carried around like Leia is seen doing all over that comic.

The dates for that comic trilogy can therefore be worked out as such:

Dark Empire (begins 45:3)
Dark Empire II (begins 45:9, ends 45:12)
Empire's End (begins either 46:1 or 46:3)

I submit it to the board for review.

 

Leafing through while eating dinner, I just noticed the reference to Alan Moore's Devilworlds stories. This book just keeps getting better and better...

 

The profile for Csilla states that it was absorbed into the CEDF about a dozen years after Thrawn's death. That's all I've found, though I haven't read the history section of the book yet.

 

I guess I don't see why, say, "10 ABY" means exactly ten years after the Battle of Yavin and not a span of time like calendar years do.

It is a span of time. It's 10 years. Thus, it's 10 years (120 months) after Yavin, which still puts it in Month 3.

If I say that something is 5.5 years after the events of September 11, 2001, then that event is apparently in March 2007, right? If I say that my girlfriend and I get married three years after we got together, then if we got together in April 2008, then we'd be married in April 2011.

People need to keep in mind that we're dealing with two completely different date notations here. The digital dates are all in reference to the Great Resynchronization, 35 years (and apparently three months) prior to the Battle of Yavin. The "BBY/ABY" dates are all in relation to the Battle of Yavin in ANH, which was in Month 3 on the other calendar.

I really don't see why people (and I mean in general, not anyone specific) can't quite seem to make sense of such an easy, obvious, and real-world applicable idea. I would think that things like the Chinese or Jewish religious calendars would make the notion of different calendars somewhat of an accepted, moot-for-argument point by now.

And we haven't even begun to add in the Treaty of Coruscant calendar, "BTC/ATC," yet...

(Luckily, we have no exact date for the Treaty of Coruscant on a digital calendar, so we are somewhat safe to assume general conversions to the "BBY/ABY" calendar, which is a bit less of a headache.)

 

Very true. As per Dengar's Tale from Tales of the Bounty Hunters and the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy, Return of the Jedi actually takes place over a number of weeks.

TC

 

That's not the "span of time" I'm referring to. If I say something happens in 1999, that doesn't mean it occurs exactly 1999 years after Jesus was born (or when we say he was born for calendar purposes); it means it occurs in a span of time between January 1, 1999, and December 31, 1999. If I say something happens in SW in 35 GrS, it means that it falls within the first day of 35 GrS and the last. This is how every calendar system, from Gregorian to Jewish to Chinese works?a given year is defined as a span of time from the beginning of that year to the end.

You say earlier that the Battle of Yavin dating works like this: "As I confirmed with Leland, a year relative to ANH is NOT Month 1 through Month 12. It is Month 3 through Month 2 of the next digital year." In other words, when we say the Thrawn Trilogy happens "9 ABY", we're not saying it all happens exactly nine years after Yavin. We're saying that it happened within a yearlong span, sometime between the first day of 9 ABY and the last.

In other words, not like this:

Because what you're talking about in that quote isn't a calendar system, it's a list of anniversaries. If the Battle of Yavin dating worked like that, then the Thrawn Campaign wouldn't take place in 9 ABY (because 9 ABY means the exact nine-year anniversary of the Battle of Yavin, which is in Month 3, before the campaign starts), it would take place in "9.125 to 9.5 ABY". Obviously that's not what's used; no real calendar works like this anyway. It's impractical as heck.

 

The day the Death Star blew up is not just an anniversary. For all intents and purposes for the calendar of the New Republic, it was day 1 of year 0

 

Precisely. So interpreting "10 ABY" as being the tenth anniversary of the Battle of Yavin is not mandatory (nor, would I argue, does it make sense in most contexts); it is, in fact, an entire year spanning from ten years after Yavin to a little short of eleven years after.

 

Quite so. Also, I'd note that the following...

Very true. As per Dengar's Tale from Tales of the Bounty Hunters and the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy, Return of the Jedi actually takes place over a number of weeks.

...does not match the duration of ROTJ in the way the info I received from Leland from the Holocron seems to put it.