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Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CeiranHarmony, Oct 14, 2005.

  1. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    I like "Despayre" :p
  2. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Feb 18, 2005
    "Look on my works, ye Mighty, at Despayre!" --Ozymandias Tarkin
  3. jasonfry

    jasonfry VIP star 4 VIP

    Nov 11, 2003

    Regarding some other points:

    Yes, there are two Abbajis. Having the Kaleesh fighting on the other side of the galaxy seemed peculiar.

    Yes, there were more regional sectors created after the rise of the Empire. We really wanted to try and make the millions of WEG-style sectors work with the 1,000-odd prequel sectors somehow, which led to subsectors and sectors and a whole lot else. I'll leave it to you to decide how well we did.
  4. Dan Wallace

    Dan Wallace Author: Essential Atlas, Essential Guides, RPG star 3 VIP

    Aug 17, 1998
    Oh, you're good.

  5. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Jul 19, 2003
    hmmmm, so would an example be the Commonality as a "Sector" (the whole shabang represented by one Senator) including the subsectors Vorzyd Sector, etc., etc.?

    I take it the "Kashyyyk Region" on the preview is a subsector of Mytaranor Sector (sp?)?

    Stink I want my copy to get here NOW.

    Wow...Bothawui Prime vs Bothawui Proper. So does the gas giant Bothawui Prime have people living on it somehow?

    Has anyone spotted the various in-jokes and easter eggs Dan and Jason hinted would be included?

    Things I look forward to seeing!:
    1) how did they handle that weird trade route from NJO that somehow made a shortcut from Fondor to Coruscant
    2) how they placed the "Twin Stars of Kira' routes and resolved the Enarc and Kirima controversies
    3) how they handled the whole mess with Kwenn
  6. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    May 9, 2000
    Nathan: thanks for the detailed crunching - it DOES all seem to hang together there (though does anyone know when the Solo Fleet's first mentioned? [face_thinking] And what year's Children of the Jedi? :p)...

    I'll admit a personal preference to have squeezed that eight-month gap between CoPL and TG, but canon, as I often say, is canon; with that in mind, it sounds a little bit like Leland's policy is to prioritize the timeline year-dates and ignore actual canon when required to force it to conform; would that be an unfair assumption? :confused:

    This is true - even though Pellaeon and the remainder of the main fleet had withdrawn to the edge of the Unknown Regions, the Council/Circle clearly has its own non-warlord military, led by Jax and Wessel (and Immodet is mentioned as the senior Army officer after Wessel's death); I'm tempted to read the "former starfleet commanders" line as meaning that Jeratai, Banjteer, Immodet and three other loyalist commanders left their fleet commands to become the "military voice" on the Council and to plan the campaigns centrally: we know from Crimson Empire 2 that they did - just not when... ;)

    Why do I think the Provisional Council was based on Sullust in Mandatory Retirement? And why can't I find my copy of XWRS #36? o_O

    Good point, and I misremembered that slughtly. [face_blush] :D Krennel as a self-styled "Prince-Admiral" can't accept Thrawn, but can give basic help, much as Harrsk and Teradoc do to Isard - I took Jello's "let him lead" to mean they let him lead them, but maybe it doesn't...

    My real concern is more that placing Yaga Minor inside Pentastar Alignment space (if that's what's been done) might create a series of linked continuity issues: does that fit with what's said about Kaine and Thrawn; does it cause problems with the Pentastar Alignment by giving Kaine Yaga Minor as well as Galantro's Sluis-Van-sized HQ at Jaemus; and does it cause problems with Thrawn controlling three major shipyards - Bilbringi, Ord Trasi and Yaga Minor, but not Jaemus?

    It'd make more sense to me if Yaga Minor was outside Oversector Outer, and always remained Imperial-Imperial (just as there are indications that Fondor was outside Tapani Sector, and in Bright Jewel until placed under Vader's direct command)... but maybe we don't even need that retcon... [face_thinking] :D

    Less a theory than an observation: Quelii is an Oversector; Zsinj commands its fleet; Han refers to "Zsinj or some other Grand Moff" in Courtship - that could have been Han fast-talking, but Zsinj was either a Grand Moff, or else a High Commander for an unnamed and non-military Grand Moff that he'd disposed of, and probably the former. :p

    If Dan and Jason picked this up from me, I'm honoured ( [face_blush] [face_peace]), but they could have just been paying attention to the sources, since that's what the Atlas is all about. :D

    What I'd really like now is some confirmation that Crimson Command was the Quelii Oversector Group, and was the fleet of one hundred red VSDs built/refitted at Kuat in 1-2 ABY... :p

  7. Dan Wallace

    Dan Wallace Author: Essential Atlas, Essential Guides, RPG star 3 VIP

    Aug 17, 1998
    Hi everybody -- Jason & I are happy to post the first installment in our Atlas endnotes series! Check it out at one of the sites below:

    [link=]Geekosity: Atlas Endnotes[/link]
    [link=] blogs: Atlas Endnotes[/link]

  8. Dan Wallace

    Dan Wallace Author: Essential Atlas, Essential Guides, RPG star 3 VIP

    Aug 17, 1998
    I don't recall exactly why we didn't cover Jabiim as a major planet, but it was definitely on the short list and fell off for lack of space. For what it's worth, I wrote more about Jabiim and what happened to it in later years in the upcoming WOTC's supplement [link=]Galaxy at War[/link].

    I agree, Palpatine's clone is insane. I think it's pretty clear in the source material, particularly toward the end where he's firing Galaxy Gun projectiles everywhere with little logic or strategy other than pride and rage.

    This was influenced by feedback from John Ostrander, who specifically told us to expand Fel's territory.

  9. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 28, 2003

    Both Havac and I are curious about the following line from the Atlas:

    "(The Mon Calamari) limited themselves for a time to protecting the emerging New Republic government, leaving Mon Calamari space in force only to stop the Stenax rampage through the Gordian Reach the next year."

    Does this quote mean that the New Republic was "officially" based on Mon Calamari until the capture of Coruscant?

    --Adm. Nick
  10. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Oct 29, 2005
    On the contrary, the Emperor himself explains it to Vader in Dark Times - considering Vader's personal feelings on slavery.
    "The slavery that exists in the lawless reaches of the Outer Rim is wrong. The trading in individuals' lives and freedom for personal gain must end. And it will... in time. But what the Empire is doing on New Plympto - and elsewhere - is different. Unreptentant Separatists like the Nosaurians must be dealt with. Put to work, they will make a positive contribution to the Empire, and their lives will be spared. It is a merciful alternative to what would otherwise be necessary."
    The Nosurians, Mon Calamari and Wookies are 'criminals', Charles. That's the dodge. The Empire pretends it's doing good.

    Areas of influence.

    Again, that's straight from Dark Times about New Plympto.
    The Empire does play nicely among the "typical" Core Worlds, not backwaters or minor ones - at least until the Rebellion Era starts. Remember that Caamas was destroyed because they had too much influence but the Empire still had to do it secretly.
  11. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 11, 2003
    According to the Star Wars novelization, the Empire had one million worlds (according to the Annotated Screenplays, the opening scroll in Lucas's second draft of TESB mentioned one million worlds), the Imperial Sourcebook mentions one million member worlds and fifty million colonies and dependencies. It's a Galactic Empire after all...

    EDIT: The authors mentioned it in their endnotes.
  12. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 8, 1999

    That seemed to be an error actually. Though the civil war was going on, by the time of the Mon Calamari assault Palpatine had revealed himself and the Empire seemed to be united under one master again. This seems especially true in DE II.

    I would also question where it was shown that the clone was firing randomly at planets. Though he's yelling and pouting, it canonically the only thing he's shown firing the galaxy gun at is:

    The Rebel base on Da Soocha.

    The Rebel base at Nespis VIII

    A rebel troop ship filled with 40,000 troops going to some battlefield.

    All of those were military targets. The fact that he didn't blow up planets like Mon Calamari don't indicate lack of foresight or plan. On the contrary, and insane man would find it very hard to delay his vengeanc. It may indicate that he other plans for the planet. His raging and pouting is due to the desperation of a man who only has days left to live.

    The culling of his troops is not insanity. It based on the very cold reasoning that a man who invents his own morality possesses. If we want to see this as indicative of insanity, then surely manipulating a war that caused the deaths of millions(the Clone Wars) just to put himself in power is insanity. The culling and the clone wars are based in the same morality. Survival of the fittest. It should be noted that the culling didn't hurt the war effort. By the time of Empire's End , the NR is once again the Rebellion and Pslpatine is on the verge of triumph...if not for the fact that he was dying.

    None of Palpatine 's actions are insane with the exception of him becoming obsessed with Anakin Solo and putting himself at risk in order to capture him.

    Palpatine's actions are the classic acts of a psychopath. Symptoms of psychopathic thinking is beliving you're above others and that society is inferior to yourself. Because a psychopath believes themselves to above society, they above societal norms such as standard conceptions of morality. To many psychopaths, morality is merely an invented concept and subject to change based on who is in charge.

    However seperated a psychopath may be from the rest of society, insanity does not go hand in hand with a psychopath, though it an insane person might appear psychpathic. The main thing to remember about a psychopath is that they tend to follow where their logic leads them. Most of us can't understand psychopaths so we look at their actions and say they're insane. It is difficult for us who are well adjusted to societal norms to understand how one could , in full possession of is senses, decide to murder. It happens though. An insane person can't understand the conquences of his own actions. No comprehension exists so he is therefore not responsible for them. That was never true of the Reborn Palpatine.
    DarthJaceus likes this.
  13. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 29, 2000
    FTW, Matthew.

    Can everyone stop trying to assume that Palpatine just had to be insane? It diminishes his character greatly to assume he's not in full control of his faculties, IMO.
  14. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Jul 30, 2000
    One oddity is that there was no real discussion of the Confederacy.

    Is it still in existence or not, Post-Daala?
  15. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Oct 29, 2005
    Ah... Charles, they may not want to be stepping on FOTJ's toes...
  16. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Jan 31, 2001
    Well, like I said, that's what you get when you add up all the Naboo days, all the Tatooine days, and all the Coruscant days from the movie and the adaptions. If you were looking at it from one fixed point, you'd probably come up with a different number.

  17. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 6

    Oct 29, 2005
    McEwok: The Pentastar Alignment's capital is listed as Entralla.

    As far as the Emperor's assemblage of the Imperials, it seems to follow what was said back in DESB:
    "Palpatine's agents made their earliest petitions to the warlords squatting in the Deep Core's fringes... Few knew the identity of the power broker on Byss, but all feared getting cut out of the spoils if they rejected membership in this new coalition."
  18. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Force Ghost star 6

    Sep 8, 2004
    Is the surprise in it being a big number and "where did that many disappear to?" or is the surprise in the sense of "where the hell did all the rest go?"

    If the former, what McEwok said. If the latter, I tend to assume the warrior caste was the biggest, and IIRC the idea was a lot of the warrior caste committed suicide with the collapse of their religion and Yun-Yammka being outed as a fraud.

    But this is also why I really want there to one day be a "retcon" (not that I really think it's a retcon as such, more "saying what hasn't been said") that states the GA Navy spent a year or two cleaning up the Outer Rim after TUF. The Liberation of Coruscant was if you go by some of the timelines I understand early in 29 ABY, and we still have older sources that say the war lasted into 30 ABY. I like the retcon that keeps both dates with Coruscant recaptured in 29 and the rogue Warrior Remnants not fully cleaned out until late 30.

    You then get 18 months to 2 years in which the GA can go around and stomp out a ton of them.
  19. Pelranius

    Pelranius Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 25, 2003
    There was already mention of those rogue Warrior holdouts in the last chapter of TUF, where fleets orbiting Coruscant were refusing to surrender despite Nas Choka.
  20. Senator_Cilghal

    Senator_Cilghal Jedi Master star 5

    Jul 19, 2003
    Jason wrote:
    ***The idea of "moff" being an ancient title borrowed from pre-Republic satrapies was brainstormed by me, Dan and Abel Pena for the Holonet News article written by Dan and Pablo Hidalgo in Star Wars Insider #84.***
    This actually may explain how, acc. to Wookieepedia, there is a Sith Grand Moff in the game "The Old Republic"!

    Palpatine's justification of enslaving Separatists to Vader reminds me of the physicians of Alexandria, who learned about the functions of organs by dissecting live human beings and observing the organs at work.

    Many in the Hellenistic world condemned the dissection of living human subjects. Defenders of the practice claimed that such normally would be evil, but was not in this case, as the subjects were criminals from the Ptolemaic prisons and the results benefited innocent people.

    Same logic.

    I would also point out that the abuse and neglect of New Plympto, and the galaxy at large's ignorance of such, went well back into the Republic years and was not a new Imperial policy. Furthermore, the human worlds of the Core tended to identify with their "culture" which included the humans of Tapani (although that Sector was technically in Colonies), and this cultural identity excluded the "alien" worlds technically in Core boundaries (Duro, Caamas, New Plympto, Abregado, the Koornacht). This attitude predated the "Human High Culture" doctrine of the New Order. CCW indicates that alien worlds in Corellian Sector were treated as clients by Corellia and essentially the natives as 2nd-class citizens. Furthermore, the attack on Coruscant at the end of the CW was meant (en partim) to stir extreme anti-Sep feelings in the otherwise apathetic and uninterested (and formerly self-perceived inviolate) Coruscanti, so they probably saw the actions on New Plympto as protecting their own saftey. Palpatine, like Hitler, exploited pre-existing bigotry.
  21. Xicer

    Xicer Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 21, 2008
    Found a spelling error, Nar Shaddaa is called "Nal Shaddaa" in the first sentence of its planet profile.
  22. Brett_Bass

    Brett_Bass Jedi Padawan star 4

    Apr 22, 2003
    I don't know why you all are still posting here and not out forcing people to buy this book...

    That said, my very first impression upon opening it was reading this:

    My jaw literally dropped in the store. I thought to myself, "holy crap, I know most of these guys!"

    I bought the book on the spot.
  23. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Jul 8, 1999


    .......I helped?

    :eek: :confused: [face_thinking] [face_whistling]

    I honestly don't remember contributing anything of consequence, but hey, sweet! Cheers, Dan and Jason!
  24. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 15, 2004
    Jason, you're too kind, I must say. Thank you for this. I can't get this book till when it comes out here, but this shall certainly keep me going until I can get it. :D I was wondering who you would name drop, but you couldn't have made me happier by doing this. Thanks, Jason. Thanks, Dan.

  25. Mandalore The Uniter

    Mandalore The Uniter Jedi Master star 2

    Jul 17, 2007
    I'm a touch confused about something...

    The Mandalore sector is supposed to be devastated in the 730's by Jedi led troops, leading a large portion of mandos to become "New Mandalorians". However, it's stated in the Atlas this happens after the Ruusan Reformations?? How is that possible when the standing Republic military had been dissolved in the Ruusan Reformations and Jedi no longer served as part of the military?

    Spitballs from Coruscant doesn't count either! =P