Discussion in 'Community' started by DANNASUK, Feb 16, 2017.
Belarus President: you have no choice but to kill me if you ever want new elections
Something's bugging me and I would appreciate people's perspectives.
I live in a country that celebrates Sinterklaas (precursor to Santa, Dec. 5). His English name is Saint Nicholas, he was a monk from the 3rd century A.D. and he's the patron saint of sailors, children, pawnbrokers, wolves, and the city of Amsterdam. This is him.
In the nineteenth century he got a helper. Someone to wrap his presents and to scare the children that were naughty. His name was Zwarte Piet and he looks like this:
In the past eight years, opposition toward that depiction of Zwarte Piet has been on the rise, as has opposition to the opposition. One notable group that tries to get Zwarte Piet to become less Zwart is Kick Out Zwarte Piet (KOZP). They want blackface banned, that's their one and only goal.
So tonight I saw some Facebook post by some random person who was yelling "Don't trust KOZP! They're funded by George Soros!". I held back, said nothing, and did some research. Turns out it's true.
Now, how am I supposed to feel about that?
One of the really scary things of today's climate is the antisemitism. It's like France in 1900 or even 1347. People are so divided, and the far right just flat out start blaming Jewish investors for the division. Only in this case I can't say it's just a dumb conspiracy theory, it's actually true. Providing the far right with ammo. My instinct is to think "George Soros, don't fan the flames, stay out of our national affairs", but then I betray my own moral code, which is that it's high time to kick out Zwarte Piet.
What to think?
I believe that the hostility toward George Soros is uniquely motivated by blatant antisemitism and knowing that something is funded by Soros shouldn't influence your view about it in any way.
In fact, I'd say that among the investors Soros is one of those who have the most progressive views, and this is why nobody ever defended him from the disgusting attacks the Right used against him.
I agree with everything you say, but I think it boils down to this. If we approve of the politics, we approve of the methods.
You and I think Soros is doing something worth fighting for. So we approve of his benevolence. The Koch family is doing something horrible. So we don't approve of their meddling. Yet, what they do is the same: fund causes they believe in.
People generally aren't against the Koches because of their religion, just because they're evil people who want to live in a libertarian utopia.
People dislike George Soros because he's Jewish and therefore controlling the world. It's a big difference.
I don't think that's right. I think people dislike George Soros because he supports progressive causes (that's just political). They then use his Jewishness as a stick (that's loathsome).
It's this. I've heard straight faced arguments that he is an anti-Semitic Jew because he hates Israel. Trust me, people who hold such crackers views are not hating on him because of some sort of blood libeling. They truly believe he is an enemy to their Zionism.
What is your precise position about Soros funding this initiative? Do you consider it immoral, or you rather think that it will be problematic from a purely strategical point of view?
Well, like I said, I think it's complicated. I don't think it's immoral, I would do the same if I had his money. But strategically, it's really inconvenient that it happens to be a foreign Jewish investor doing it. Which sucks, because in an ideal world, it wouldn't matter what your background is. It's like the situation forces me to think along ethnic lines. I really don't like it.
Apart from that I think national issues are best worked out on a national level, if only to circumvent the whiff of foreign influence and the accompanying rabble-rousing.
At the same time, I do a lot of work for NGOs. They invest in third world countries, promoting values we hold dear, with money from other philantropes. If I decide foreign meddling is no good, what am I working for?
I don't know, perhaps the advantage of receiving his donations compensates the problems related to the right-wing propaganda that they carry.
Concerning the fact that billionaires can have such a huge influence on society in the first place, it is an inevitable consequence of our current economic system that allows few people to accumulate such a grotesque level of wealth, and it's a reality that is not easy to change, so I also won't complain for it.
^ With this premise in mind, the level of hatred toward this man has gone out of proportion at this point, and I agree that it's really loathsome.
This dropped like a bombshell this morning: the makers of a new documentary has illegally dived to the wreckage of the passenger cruise ship M/S Estonia, that sank in the Baltic Sea 26 years ago today and took 852 of the passengers and crew with it. They found a large hole in the hull of the ship at water level, which goes against the official findings of the joint Swedish/Finnish/Estonian investigation conducted between 1994 and 1997.
This large hole seems to have been made by some sort of collision. Possibly with another ship, possibly with a submarine. No mention of this has ever existed in the official reports. In fact, at least one eye witness has come forward today and said that he saw something that looked like a submarine right after the ship started taking on water, but in the official report he was mis-quoted as saying that he saw pieces of the ship falling into the water. Other witnesses have claimed for over two decades that they felt impacts on the hull shortly before the alarms were raised, but those witness statements haven't been taking into consideration in the official report.
In short, it seems evidence is coming to light that points to something other than a tragic result of faulty construction sank M/S Estonia in 1994, and there's a possibility our three governments helped hide this for some reason.
Was one of the interested parties not officially owning submarines at the time?
how deep is it? Could it have been hit by another ship or sub after it wrecked that was passing through the illegal diving area.
I haven't looked into Estonia, but Sweden was soon to commission a cutting edge submarine, the Gotland class. They use a Stirling engine air-independent propulsion (AIP) system which I have no idea what that is but it apparently got it to submerge longer than any non-nuclear sub. So prototype collides with the Estonia......? that's the best I've got, I don't wanna get overly conspiratorial
Massive victory in Greece. The vigilance of Greek Antifascists certainly will be important against whatever Golden Dawn does in retaliation
Just popping in to say that I was there ^^. It was an incredible moment. Now the lawyers for the defence are making their case for extenuating circumstances and it's very entertaining ("my client deserves leniency because he likes animals", I kid you not). And then the court will give the sentences and discuss whether they're suspended or not.
Sent from my SM-T365 using Tapatalk
Suuuuuure It was another George Soros who must have done that run on the Pound
holy bleep that is awesome. And once again congrats and solidarity to all of you. Fascism is on the rise everywhere, but as scary as it can be in america we have no idea how intense stuff with Golden Dawn has been. Like hardly "neo" or "crypto" nazi, but just brownshirts with a coherent movement. Can only hope for a win like this in Hungary, Poland, Ukraine etc
edit: particularly given there was never any real justice for what fascism did in Greece. My country burst in, destroyed the Democratic Army, backed the white terror and mass deportations, exiling of the KKE, all with collaboration and assistance with some of the literal members of fascist puppet Greece. The Greek Civil War deserves ten times the attention and "if only" lamentations that the Spanish Civil War gets. To bad the few Greek resistance members who lived long enough to be allowed to enter the country again didn't get to see this day
Why are you talking about it with this tone?
Old history ^^
Long time no see @Chyntuck , hope everything is good with you. This most feel really god for you.
A quick update on the Golden Dawn trial. The defendants' lawyers have been dragging it out but the sentences were finally handed today. The murderer of Pavlos Fyssas got a life sentence, the leadership 13+ years imprisonment and the rest several years. (This is close to the maximum they could get under Greek law, e.g. leadership of a criminal organisation is max. 15 years.)
Tomorrow the court will decide if any sentences are suspended pending appeal. Given the way they handled things so far, probably not.
Off to party some more!
Me again. And no, it's not over yet.
After endless talk about extenuating circumstances the sentences handed out by the court were harsh. Then there was more endless talk about suspension of the sentences and the Nazis brought everyone and their mother as witnesses to prove that they are such nice people and wouldn't hurt a fly.
Then this morning the prosecutor proposed that EVERYONE gets as suspended sentence save for the man who actually knifed Pavlos Fyssas and who got a life sentence, which isn't eligible for suspension. (This shouldn't come as a surprise though. The same prosecutor's recommendation earlier on had been that everyone be found innocent except this same guy.)
And now, more endless talk from the Nazis' lawyers before the court takes its final decision on suspended sentences.
I swear, these guys are even going to plead about the return of the items that were confiscated as evidence, citing severe financial damage to their clients for losing a 2013 smartphone that runs on Android 2.1.
No suspended sentences for the big Nazi honchos. They're off to prison where they belong. The police is already there to take them away.
(Sorry for the triple post, I promise I won't post again until someone else does.)