The Fan Fiction Newsletter, Edition IX

Now hold up here... No one is 'harassing the reveiwer' that I am aware of. I happened to disagree with the review as did Jedi_Bant, and we wanted to make our opinions known.

Discussion should be encouraged, and if dissenting opinions are to be cast aside and ignored (which sems to be common place in many threads), why bother in the first place? It suggest the idea that this is nothing more than yet another clique where 'if you don't follow the rules, you'll be shut out.'

No thanks, I never was one for that kind of thing.

Sadly, I actually like the Newsletter over all, I think it's a great idea. I think most of the features are usefull, fun to read and are a great way to highlight 'new' stories, but once again, I keep getting drawn back to this last comment.

Please note:
If you harass the reviewers too much, you won't get any reviewers at all. Because who needs that much hassle? It's already a lot of work.

If the 'cost' of getting a review/acceptance is becoming a 'Heather' at TF.N, well... People who know me and my 'rep' here know exactly how I am on this subject anyway.

 

Breezy and Bant

I must apologize for the use of the word harass. I feel that a reviewer is much less likely to continue to review in future if they are said to have:

'bad review', 'crush a writer', 'leave a horrible comment on this *one* story', 'bad reviews', '*Newsletter* has condemned it', 'singled out and criticized' and 'this is simply not *fair*'.
and
'In the second, I actually wondered if the reviewer had even taken the time to read the story at all?'

I believe that if the author is unhappy with the review, that person should take it up with the reviewer.

This discussion is more appropriate to the thread What do you want in the Newsletter?

 

If the 'cost' of getting a review/acceptance is becoming a 'Heather' at TF.N, well... People who know me and my 'rep' here know exactly how I am on this subject anyway.

I'm with Breezy on this one, and I don't think that readers should be "harassed" for merely disagreeing with the reviewer's assessment. Breezy was not ugly about it, and there is no reason to jump her case for doing something other than nodding in agreement with the reviewer.

 

I'm sorry for being absent from this discussion - I haven't really been keeping track of the newsletter over the past few days. Thank you for your comments, everyone, and I'll try to address your concerns here as best I can.

Breezy: The first thing that all the newsletter readers must understand is that every story that makes the final cut is a quality work. Regardless of what it's rated or whether there are negative comments about it, all the stories here are highly recommended. As editor, I pick many of the stories, but these choices are often based on quick skims of the first post - I don't have time to read through an entire novel-length piece every time I want to send a recommendation off at the beginning of the month. Regardless of any seeming negativity, each of these stories has some redeeming value that we at the newsletter recognized.

The newsletter is not, has not been, and will never be a clique. It is formed of a highly talented and devoted group of individuals whose job it is to volunteer their valuable time to bring the community a review of what has happened in the Fan Fiction Forums over the month. Posts and PMs are always welcome, as are ideas about potential improvements. The newsletter has been a dynamic publication ever since its debut, and there is no reason it would decrease in innovativeness now that it is slightly more established.

The editors of the newsletter have always been open to requests for the reviewers to contact the authors of stories they reviewed. It's solved many problems and misunderstandings in the past and will undoubtedly continue to do so.

As Diane suggested, the Newsletter Discussion Thread is really a more appropriate forum for this debate.

Jedi_Bant: Much of what I said in replying to Breezy applies to my response to your post.

Quite frankly, I don't think the review is negative. On the whole, it points out as many positive aspects as negative ones; the reviewer is very clear that the opinions stated are merely opinions, not facts written in stone. As you have your right to an opinion on the story, so does that reviewer have a right to state whatever he or she thinks. Nothing in the review attacked the author or the story. I do not think it reasonable to call the review crushing or even bad. It most certainly does not condemn the story in any way.

Constructively critical comments often help a writer as much as or more than purely positive comments - there is food for thought when one is confronted by others' criticisms. If you'd like to continue the discussion (and I encourage the free sharing of opinions of all sorts) please take this to the Newsletter Discussion Thread.

anakin_girl: I think we can all agree that no party has been harassed by any of the others. Diane apologized in her above post for use of the word.

-Xaara

 

Now, isn?t this a pretty picture?

I think the expression is ?damning with faint praise.? The review of leia_naberrie?s Healing and the complacent reaction to it are so appalling that even with my recent escapades in these Boards, I was and still am completely astounded. Except for DarthBreezy and Jedi_Bant, the rest of the fandom have chosen to turn a blind eye to the matter. In the name of all that is Holy, rose_red_knight, a fan fiction moderator singled out the reviews for praise! [face_shocked] .

I have a copy of every single newsletter on these boards in my hard disk and never have I seen such a spiteful and un-intelligent comment made about someone?s sweat and blood. I can only conclude that either the reviewer is a first-comer and a non-writing reader ? and is testament to the fact that Those Who Cannot Do Critic ? or that there are certain V.I.P.s, certain untouchables on these boards and anyone who does not revolve in their clique is fair game.

Inappropriate

Ah ? hold on a minute? this reads very familiar. That?s right. I?ve already done this in ?Do you think fanfiction writers can go pro-Sw? thread. And if my dwindling memory serves me right, that comment, as generally applied to fan fiction as it was, was not received with open arms from you. In fact, straining my gray cells now, I remember being categorized by you, however obliquely, as ?uncivilized? - oh la la! - for daring to pose such an opinion.

But alas, the incivility of my comments seem more to do with the originator and not the material itself. You and the rest of the reviewers on the Newsletter, apparently, have a Divine Right From Above to dish out what you cannot swallow.

And just for the record, leia_naberrie is not one of my infamous Fabulous Four. But even if she is in no-one?s Fabulous Four, does she or any other writer deserve to singled out and cut down this way?

 

rogue_winter I thank you for your review.

 

As it has been mentioned time and again, if any of the authors reviewed have issue with the reviews, they can contact the reviewer via PM for discussion.

If there are suggestions for changes or additions to the newsletter, take it to the appropriate thread: Newsletter Discussion Thread.

Rogue winter: In the name of all that is Holy, rose_red_knight, a fan fiction moderator singled out the reviews for praise!

Yes, I did thank them and say their work is appreciated. There are six reviewers who took time out to read stories and write reviews. They didn?t have to, but they did.

Keep the personally directed comments out of this.

 

I have to speak up here.

When writing anything, be it fanfic or original work and you send it out either to an online archive or to a publisher, you are opening yourself up to both positive and negative reviews/feedback.

One needs to have both to help improve and grow as a writer.

Constructive critisim is vital in my opinion.

I've gotten both with the stories I've done and yes, I've learned my errors from the negative and the praise does bring a smile to my face and shows me what directions I do better with than others.

I don't see how a writer could be 'crushed' by a less than glowing review unless they have worse self esteem issues than I, and that's saying quite a bit there as it is. Heck, I'd worry if anything I've ever written just got glowing feedback.

If you love to write, you're going to no matter who says what. It's whether you take heed to what's said overall that's the deciding point.

 

I am so confused because I don't see how can *RogueWinte*'s review be inappropriate when the review of Healing is *appropriate*?
*Xaara* I think it is important that people who feel strongly about this Newsletter and that review in particular post their opinion here because it is more a particular than a general observation and also because I don't think the only comments that should be welcomed on the Newsletter thread should be praises and adulations, warranted criticisms also have their place but most importantly, the damage that review did to that story will go uncorrected if I and the others do not post out objections *here*. I will say something in that other thread about this matter but I will first reply you *here*.
*Dianethx*, I am going to use an example of something that actually happened so that you can understand what all the fuss is about. You may not remember this but _I_ once wrote in _your_ thread _Betrayal_ that I enjoyed all your characters except Anakin because he _seemed_ to be violent and it did not make sense since your story was an AU where Qui- trained him and you replied to me that he only _seemed_ to be that way because he was afraid the Jedi would hurt Qui-. See? Because I posted that in _your_ thread _you were able to reply and correct my impression_ and even if someone had seen my review, they would have also seen your reply but that is not the case in the Newsletter because there is no environment here for *leia_naberrie* to comment that Owen is not at all hateful it's just that he is being forced to take charge of the farm prematurely and at a very bad time and he is doing a lot of dangerous things to keep the farm in the family and there is no way that that cannot affect his behaviour and that Padme is not whiny, she is emotional because someone just died and she feels guilty. Even as bad as fanfiction.net is, at least people see my stories _before_ they see the reviews so they can judge for themselves.
That is why these reviews *must* be positive, for better or for worse so if you can't give a writer a Good review then *please* don't give her one at all. And *please*, *please*, *please* do not tell me that because the reviewer wrote *Good* that that review was good because it was not, it was *Poor*. Read it yourself, in fact *dianethx* read the whole story, _Healing_, yourself because I think that is the only way you will understand why me and DarthBreezy and RogueWinter are so angry at this review and I still don't understand why with all the talk going on about social boards, and improving the fan fiction community that none of you can see why something like this very wrong.
So this is it, I don't have anything more to say about this topic only this, that I hope the newsletter staff finally admit their mistake and know not to make this kind of mistake again, all I hope is that these comments from me and DarthBreezy and RogueWinter have done something to bolster *leia_naberrie*'s confidence which I am very sure must have been badly shaken by that review She is a very, very good writer in *my humble opinion* and the humble opinion of so many readers on her thread, her story deserves at least a *real* Very Good and I am beginning to wonder how reliable the Newsletter is as a reviewing medium for _any_ story if such a *Gross* error can be made.

 

Jedi_Bant I can only say once again that, if the author has problems with the review, she should take it up with the reviewer.

As to other comments you have made specifically to me, I believe that it would be better done off post. I will PM you tonight after I get home from work.

 

That is why these reviews *must* be positive, for better or for worse so if you can't give a writer a Good review then *please* don't give her one at all. And *please*, *please*, *please* do not tell me that because the reviewer wrote *Good* that that review was good because it was not, it was *Poor*. Read it yourself, in fact *dianethx* read the whole story, _Healing_, yourself because I think that is the only way you will understand why me and DarthBreezy and RogueWinter are so angry at this review and I still don't understand why with all the talk going on about social boards, and improving the fan fiction community that none of you can see why something like this very wrong.

Silence does nothing to help a writer grow, nor does giving a positive review just to not hurt one's feelings.

As I said before, we all take a chance when we show our work to the world. Some folks are going to like it, and others won't. Getting an unfavourable review is not a personal attack, so there's no point that I can see in someone feeling crushed by getting one. Yeesh, I'd take it as welcome to the club since most of the writers I know, self included, have all gotten something in negative feedback.

My opinion is if the writer takes it as a crushing blow, then perhaps they shouldn't be putting their work out for the world to view.

 

Silence does nothing to help a writer grow, nor does giving a positive review just to not hurt one's feelings.

Yes, it does. Of course it does!

This is not a writing class. It is not a writer's workshop. It is not the New York Times Review of Books.

It is a place where we come to play.

This is a public forum where people come together to share their interest in Star Wars fanfiction. Some people write it; some people read and respond to what has been written. The quality of the stories varies wildly. That's great! That means that all kinds of people, of all ages and experiences are coming together to share their interests. That's amazing! Through that sharing, they (we) form a kind of community based on common interests.

I repeat: That Is A Good thing. I mean, haven't we been talking all along about the importance of building and nurturing our little community on a nuimber of different threads?

Feedback rules. We all love it and it's one of the main reasons we come here. But let's face it, what we really want and crave is positive feedback - a little acknowlegement for our efforts. A little encouragement. Some cheerleading. Writing and posting is a VERY scary business to many, and bravo to those who have the courage!

Not everybody likes everything, and that's OK, too. I think we all get that and can live with it pretty contentedly. But when "authoritative" criticism of our heartfelt efforts is not only allowed but encouraged, it hurts the community because it immediately shifts the focus from this:

"We're all in this together and isn't this cool?!!"

To this:

"Your stuff is crap and other people's stuff is better. And if it hurts you to hear that, you're a crybaby and it's better if you go away."

Please tell me you didn't mean that.

 

I think it wouldn't be such an issue if the author/ someone who disagrees could actually PUBLICLY disagree and bring up points to suport their reason (hense my suggestion of including a 'letters' page). I mean, I guess in this instance, L.N. has become the unwitting poster child for what I would deem 'misleading reviews'. I keep going back to the reviewers take on LN's portrayal of Owen...

Owen a hateful person

I'm sorry, I STILL can't see it. On the contrary, I thought Owen was given a depth and true 'fleshing out'. To explain this, I'd have to site specific examples from the piece which would spoil it for new readers. It's a real rock and a hard place here. Suffice to say, I really think the reveiw was off the mark.


Now here's the rub folks, the Newsletter has become the main sorce of bringing new people to Fan Fiction. It's featured in the TF.N headlines, it has a prominant place here on the WRF... basicly, it has to be the potential to make or break a writer in the Star Wars Community. Until The OS actually allows Fan Fic, TF.N is where MOST SW fans come peeking, and unlike the Archive, where rejections are at least Private, a (even slightly) negative review has a lot more influance than it would norally.

The only solution is to either only allow the very best and positive peices to be highlighted (heading down the trail of eliteism) or allowing some 'talk-back' to be publicly printed to add a counter balance.

The Newsletter has so much potential to be the "Shining light" for our community. The other features (writing tips, author interviews ect) are wonderful, but we are sadly drawn to the negative right now.

I think that because it has become such a focus of discussion, , it's an aspect of the Newsletter that really needs to be looked into.

 

In response to rose_red_knight:
Keep the personally directed comments out of this.

Unless I am much mistaken, the whole defense of the Reviewing team is that the review of ?Healing? was an individual opinion ? the reviewer?s personal view of the story. So automatically, that personal opinion will be challenged ? personally. I find it remarkably quaint that with the typical double standard of these boards, my personal review of Dianethx?s story was inappropriate but the personal, albeit anonymous review of Leia Naberrie?s story was not.


In response to Jedi_Bant:
I hope the newsletter staff finally admit their mistake and know not to make this kind of mistake again



Your heart is in the right place and it is heartbreakingly obvious that you are new on these boards. You will learn not to expect anything remotely regarding justice or fairness from this group.


In response to Vampi_Digitalwytch:
My opinion is if the writer takes it as a crushing blow, then perhaps they shouldn't be putting their work out for the world to view.


As you have obviously missed out on the fact that the Author has not once commented on topic or this thread, I would advise you to read the story first before you give your vaunted opinion. I daresay that if your registration date is any indication, you are more likely to get criticism than praise. Do not assume that every writer here is in the same quality bracket as yourself. It might interest you to know that even the works of J. R. R. Tolkien can be skewered by a malicious critic. I certainly hope you do not write fan fiction because you just waved a red flag in front of this bull.


geo3: You already have my respect as a writer. Now you have my respect as a person.


DarthBreezy:
I think it wouldn't be such an issue if the author/ someone who disagrees could actually PUBLICLY disagree and bring up points to suport their reason

No, dearie, you've got in wrong. Only praises and 'Yes, Editor's are permitted on this thread. The Force strike you down for daring to have a dissenting view and may it doom you to Darkness for speaking it out loud.

 

As you have obviously missed out on the fact that the Author has not once commented on topic or this thread, I would advise you to read the story first before you give your vaunted opinion. I daresay that if your registration date is any indication, you are more likely to get criticism than praise. Do not assume that every writer here is in the same quality bracket as yourself. It might interest you to know that even the works of J. R. R. Tolkien can be skewered by a malicious critic. I certainly hope you do not write fan fiction because you just waved a red flag in front of this bull.

And I believe you're missing my point. I'm not saying the story in question's a good or bad one, just that for any and all of us irregardless of our quality of writing, we should expect getting a bad review or feedback somewhere down the line.

Correct me if I'm in error, but how you've presented things is that we shouldn't give any review or feedback if it's nothing less than glowing. That, I feel is an injustice to the writer.

If their story's good, then say so, if it's bad, then say so as well.

And yes, I do write fanfic. Just haven't written any that would be acceptible to this board's guidelines. And with those I've done, along with original stories, I've gotten both good and bad reviews. I welcome both.

 

Correct me if I'm in error, but how you've presented things is that we shouldn't give any review or feedback if it's nothing less than glowing. That, I feel is an injustice to the writer.

I would no sooner expect my local Fanfiction Forum Newsletter to publish a bad review of a local writer than I would expect my local newsapaper to publish a bad review of any one of the many little and diverse restaurants that dot Main Street of my town.

If either publication were to misconstrue its true role and purpose - that of community building and promotion - and behave otherwise, its community would suffer.

 

While I can certainly see Geo and other's points, and the fact that most if not all of us are not professional writers and really shouldn't be subject to the same scrutiny someone who makes millions of dollars with their books do, especially if we don't want to be, I can also see a need for a place where people CAN give more *constructive* critisim here (not "I hate this, I hate that" but well thought out feedback on story problems and what can be done to improve the story/writing). There really seems to be an absence of that here for the most part which is unfortunate because it's such a nice community for fan fic otherwise. I mean, while people telling you they like your writing is always nice, sometimes a bit of criticism, presented appropriately of course, can help you improve your writing greatly. I'm not absolutely positive that the newsletter is the place to do that though. I do agree that the newsletter should be more geared towards bringing the comunity together but it seems like this particular review has acheived the opposite.

My next question is, what would people think of a "constructive criticism" thread where authors could post whether or not they are interested in receiving that sort of feedback, whether or not they want it via PM or within their story thread, and if there is a particular area they want feedback in, etc? That way people who can handle such criticism well and appreciate it can make it clear they are open for that, and those who aren't as comfortable with that can stick with the kind of feedback they are currently getting. Obviously there would have to be guidelines in both giving and taking criticism placed down in the thread but I can see where this may be helpful for those of us who want a bit more than just "Good job" in our feedback.

sg

 

The following is completely my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

I guess I'm really the odd one out here on more points than I thought. I look at the newsletter as informing us what's going on overall with the fanfiction section, which is good concidering how some of us only stick to certain areas of it and writing tips are always a plus.

I also don't see where the difference is between a fanfic writer and someone with a set book deal short of one's not getting paid and the other is. Both write and put thier work out for others to read.

This stance of 'Don't say anything negative of any sort' does make me raise an eyebrow. If only the 'good' feedback's allowed, I don't see the point of posting a fic short of just getting an ego stroke. I won't deny the ego stroke's nice, but if I write something I think's good and it's really a clunker, not hearing that it's bad won't let me see where I possibly went wrong or worse, flubbed in my research.

 

Vampi_Digitalwytch You sound like you're serious about your writing, and have the guts to see it through. Bravo! But I imagine that even you would prefer to receive your supportively critical feedback in a situation where you can converse with the critic, find out more, learn from it his or her assessment, and work it through. You might even - and this might be a stretch, I could be wrong - you might even prefer, deep down, that that constructive criticism NOT be the first and only impression many people will ever get of your story, and carry the authoritative imprimateur of the Newsletter.

And even if that is not true of you, I can promise you that it is true of many people around here.

*raise your hands, everyone who knows someone who quit because of discouragement*

Is it a personal choice to do that? Of course it is. Do I, personally, care whether more fragile writers become discouraged? Yes, I do. I hope that others care, too.

spiritgurl, I think that's a brilliant idea. It sounds like a kind of workshop - a real writing workshop, where people participate because they want to improve and the whole focus is on learning and making one's writing better. In that setting that constructive criticism is not only desirable, it's sought-after, and welcomed.

Does anyone know whether such threads/groups already exist on the Writer's Resource Forum?

EDITS: The Gods of Accurate typing are not with me today!

 

Your heart is in the right place and it is heartbreakingly obvious that you are new on these boards. You will learn not to expect anything remotely regarding justice or fairness from this group.

Ouch, kind of a sweeping statement, don't you think? Especially when it seems there were so many reviews that people agreed with? I know, I'm a newbie, but that doesn't mean I don't know good fiction when I read it. I liked all of the stories reviewed, some better than others. But I think it is rather unfair and unjust to put every reviewer and staff member under the same label. I mean they do volunteer their time to do this, right?

 

What would be the point of having reviews if they were all positive? Wouldn't it be easier to simply have readers recommend fics they like?

I understand that positive reviews can mean the world for a writer. But less-than-positive reviews can also be a good thing. One of the reviewers for my story said something less than positive that made me look at one of my characters in a different way, and made me think about fleshing her out a little bit more. Also, a review is only one person's opinion - after all, how many people agree with the critics who write for the New York Times? I know I don't!

I don't like the idea of all the reviews being only "Excellent" or "Very Good" because that forces the reviewer to conform opinions. However, I also think that talk-back should be encouraged, either as Letters to the Editor, or just in the thread itself. Disagreements might causes rifts between people here, but at the same time, they bring the board members together. Aren't we all hanging out together in this thread, debating and discussing?

Also, to get more community participation with the newsletter, why not have a different extra reviewer or two each month, to share stories they really like?

 

that that constructive criticism NOT be the first and only impression many people will ever get of your story, and carry the authoritative imprimateur of the Newsletter.



*raise your hands, everyone who knows someone who quit because of discouragement*



Take this one further and look at the Archive thread... Criticism and rejection, even on a privet level is very much taken to heart with many people here.

 

thanks geo3, just trying to come up with something positive that may come out of this... I've not seen a thread like that here already.

sg

 

You sound like you're serious about your writing, and have the guts to see it through. Bravo! But I imagine that even you would prefer to receive your supportively critical feedback in a situation where you can converse with the critic, find out more, learn from it his or her assessment, and work it through. You might even - and this might be a stretch, I could be wrong - you might even prefer, deep down, that that constructive criticism NOT be the first and only impression many people will ever get of your story, and carry the authoritative imprimateur of the Newsletter.

I'll be honest, I'm trying to make it into the 'big leagues', but I know that'll be a roller coaster ride in itself. I'd be foolish to not expect more rejection slips than not.

To me, feedback's feedback. The story in question provoked the reader enough to respond. I've had it run the gamut of detailed constructive to 'U RUL!!' and 'THIS STORIE SUXXX!' With each when I reply, I ask for specifics and if I get them, great, if I don't, oh well.

I honestly don't think it's being realistic with thinking one will always have a chance to comment on feedback given, and I feel that even with something recieving a negative review, it's still going to pull readers to see for themselves.

Essentially the same as when Ebert gives a film a clunker review and we still want to go see for ourselves to make our own decision.


And even if that is not true of you, I can promise you that it is true of many people around here.

*raise your hands, everyone who knows someone who quit because of discouragement*

Is it a personal choice to do that? Of course it is. Do I, personally, care whether more fragile writers become discouraged? Yes, I do. I hope that others care, too.

Now I feel it's on the author with how they take the reviews they get, pretty much the same as any critism one does face in real life and online. You either take it for what it is and deal with it or shrug it off.

It's unrealistic to think that everything we write and post for the world to see is going to be liked, and as much as I wish it were otherwise, not all of what's going to be said, positive or negative's going to be constructive.

Be nice if it was though. *sighs*

 

Does anyone know whether such threads/groups already exist on the Writer's Resource Forum?

The thread called The Laboratory springs to mind. It has been slow for a while though between the holidays and so many early challenges this year I think. And there are also specialized groups for writing action, nookie and villians. There are also character threads where you can discuss would Obi-Wan do this or that to your hearts content. Although, with Obi you get jello.

I have taken the rest of my commentary on this topic over to the Newsletter discussion thread as the editor has asked us all to do.

KD